Attitude or Training ?

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 14 Jan 2006 12:39 pm

I probably purchased five hundred dollars worth of "beginners" courses before I found a couple that really suit my learning style. In doing so, I noticed a couple of things which most all of them have in common, with exception of a couple that I like pretty well. I noticed that most of the lessons teach songs and then provide backing tracks for the student to play along with. What I also noticed is that they teach the student to play some form of a melody all the way through the song from beginning to end. Almost none of them have vocals on them and almost none of them teach a student to play in what would be a realistic atmosphere, meaning with a singer and other lead insturments. Basically, the majority of courses teach the student to play all the way through a song an never focus on when NOT to play. I also noticed that most of them really don’t explain why you’re playing the passing notes or chords and how they relate to the progression being played. When I really analyzed this, I realized that this might well be a flaw in the way students learn to play steel guitar. I had a conversation with Ricky Davis about this observation when I visited with him last Tuesday night. I told him that while I was thinking about these entire courses and their content, I realized that some of my past experiences with steel players in the bands I fronted might well prove this point. Before I played lead guitar, I was a front man in a little 5-piece band. Several times during that tenure, I would hire a steel player and end up letting them go because they over played all the time and no matter what I said about, they wouldn’t stop. A couple of steel players continued playing melodic lines right over the fiddle or lead guitar solos. The last band I was in as the lead player, we went through 3 steel players and only one of them seemed to be disciplined enough to know when NOT to play. For many years, I assumed steel players did this because they were full of themselves and wanted the lime light on them all time. In re-evaluating those thoughts since taking up steel myself, I am wondering if the problem was really a result of how they learned steel as opposed to just a behavioral problem. Really thinking back on it, I now wonder if these players had stopped playing in the middle of the song to allow a vocal or other lead to shine for a few seconds, would they have known where to resume with their part of the playing? I wonder what some of you think about this. Do you think the constant playing to backing tracks with no vocals is really a valid way to learn? Is it really teaching the student to be a part of the overall picture on the bandstand? This is, of course, just an observation I have made with 25 years of bandstand experience and obviously I could be wrong. In my assessment, when a student becomes part of a band and begins to play under pressure, he is going to fall back on what he has engrained in his mind, as a natural human instinct. If that turns out to be, start playing when the count ends and stop playing when the song ends, wouldn’t you agree that learning in this manner is not really giving the student the proper training?…What are your thoughts?……James

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 14 Jan 2006 12:47 pm

you might have something here...keep going man!

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 14 Jan 2006 12:56 pm

well there are a few out there that include vocals on the tracks to play behind as well as the chord charts to review while playing..so you know what it is your are playing.With Steel solo's and Guitar solo's to play behind too..kinda like a real band !

take a look...

TPrior/SteelGuitarWebsite

and yes, learning when NOT to play is way harder than learning WHEN to play...[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 14 January 2006 at 01:36 PM.]

Chris Erbacher · Post by **Chris Erbacher** » 14 Jan 2006 1:01 pm

from my point of view, the real thing is the best way to learn, but if you don't have sympathetic friends, a computer program is good, and what i do is to run a signal from either my ipod or cd player into my microcube and play with it, that way i can hear what i am doing against the other music, in other words, it is coming out of the same speaker, that way i get a feel for volume control, pitch control, and being able to listen to the singer as well, to me it is the only way to go in an artificial setting. as far as someone playing too much, a conversation about roles in the band is essential to understanding one's part in the overall picture. lead guitarists, from my experience, seem to think that the only thing that the audience wants to hear is them, and that they are running the show, so to speak, but also from my experience, audience members have said that they wish the steel was more prominent because they liked the sound and it seems to be sort of underneath all the rest of the stuff. i take this as a tradition thing, where the steel has been used as a complimentary instrument for so long, most people just assume that is what it should be. nobody is right or wrong. jazz players seem to all "talk" at the same time, and are sort of playing chase with each other, and robbing each other of their lunch money at the same time, different music has a different structure to it, which i am sure you understand. it would be interesting to find out what the musical backgrounds of the steel players you talked about were, and see if they lined up with yours and the rest of the band, it may not only be their practice habits, but i think you are onto something.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 14 Jan 2006 1:19 pm

Very interesting.
Can taste be taught? Holding back? I guess there's a fine line between keeping that texture folks say they love, and playing too much.
I can only say I'm glad I started out as an accompanist. Keeps you mindful of what's really going on, keeps you listening.

But its been too long since I had formal training. I tend to agree with some the points you make, Jim.

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 14 Jan 2006 1:23 pm

To put it bluntly, play something when you have something to say and shut up when you don't. In other words don't babble, musically speaking.

I always thought the steel player was supposed to make the singer and the band sound good by complementing the singer with fills and sharing this duty with the rest of the lead instruments. Prime examples of this are found on songs by
Ray Price with Buddy Emmons and Jimmy Day.

Jeff Newman emphasised this constantly in his seminars. Learning when to lay out seems to be harder than learning a bunch of licks to play all the time.

Michael Barone · Post by **Michael Barone** » 14 Jan 2006 1:23 pm

James, I think the skill you are referring to is learned over time in an environment where such conditions exist. Chris makes this point in his post. As far as instruction, IMO, the same situation exists with other instruments. The player has to learn from an experience, whether it’s listening to popular recordings or playing in a band with a vocalist/lead instrument. I think it’s simply a process of learning how to demonstrate respect for a vocalist or lead instrumentalist, and remembering to use your artistry to serve the song, which should be the ultimate goal. I did the same thing for years on keyboard/guitar. You just lay back and wait for your turn.

Also, IMHO, learning the melody is important. But once you learn it (and the chord progression), you now have a fundamental resource to use, to create snippets of melody, harmony or riffs between vocal lines, lead lines, or turn-arounds, etc.

When you think about it, playing a steel instrumental start to finish can be a good instructional concept. The finished product can be considered good entertainment for an enthusiastic listener, should you be lucky enough to have one or more present.

Mike

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 14 Jan 2006 1:36 pm

THis is a good thread. One thing to remember is that after you learn a song, the woodshedding should come into play. That is analyze what was played and why it fit against the song. When you are able to get to that point then it becomes much easier to start doing the fills with a vocalist.

The first goal especially when starting out is to make music and get one familiar with pedals, knees and different chord positions on the guitar. Without that, it is much harder to learn to play around the melody.

Lloyd always says that if you are doing a solo, you should be able to play it at more than one position on the guitar. Truer words were never spoken.

Do your tabs, but remember they are just a vehicle to show you how something is played against a chord. The critical thing is that you know is why those notes fit with that chord.

Fun stuff.

Regards,

Mark T.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 14 Jan 2006 1:45 pm

Jeff Newman's first column in Steel Guitarist Magazine, January 1978, p. 9, makes this precise point. If you don't have these mags, I recommend them highly - they're available through the forum from b0b. Jeffran's "Bandstand Backup" series is designed to help in this area.

However, this is hardly a problem unique to steel guitarists. I am originally a guitar player, and I frequently hear this problem with lead guitarists, not to mention sax and keyboard players.

I agree that laying out is an essential skill for any "melody-oriented" instrument. On a live bandstand, some players are just plain uncomfortable just sitting there, not playing. Drinking often exacerbates this tendency. Anybody serious needs to get over this, IMO. It is just plain wrong to play over the singer or other soloists.

Now, there is a matter of judgement about playing something when someone else is in the spotlight. One needs to be very careful doing this at all - but if done, it should be about complementing what they are doing, not competing. The old phrase "when in doubt, lay out" is the still the best medicine. IMO.

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 14 Jan 2006 1:48 pm

Let me share this experience with you and maybe it will clarify my view better. I have been in law enforcement of over 25 years. I recall back in the 80’s, the firing range master would tell you during firearms training: “pick up your brass as soon as you finish your round of fire.” This was a time saving measure so that officers didn’t spend a bunch of time cleaning up the range after shooting. Years later, I investigated a shooting and thought the officer who had been shot never returned fire, there was no brass from his gun on the ground. Much to my amazement, I found all of his brass in his pocket. He was shot while instinctively pick up brass as a result of his many hours of training. Many hours of practicing something will instill it in the mind, even if it’s the wrong thing to do, and that is what one will do under pressure. That type of training in firearms has since been changed. Now my point was, if I spend endless hours of learning to play songs all the way through, only to have to discipline myself NOT to do that when I play in a band, wouldn’t it be better to just learn it correctly the first time?. So my real point was, I used to think it was the steel guys fault that he played all the time, but maybe it was really a matter of faulty learning skills. If so, I would really like to avoid that….....James

EDIT: By the way, I watched Ricky Davis play last Tuesday night, and I WATCHED closely. There were times I saw him set his bar down and watch the guitar player do a solo. I seldom see an another musician on stage do something like that. That was a really good lesson he taught me without even knowing he taught me.....James[This message was edited by James Sission on 14 January 2006 at 02:06 PM.]

Andy Sandoval · Post by **Andy Sandoval** » 14 Jan 2006 2:06 pm

I've just started back in tryin to really learn to play steel and that's exactly the way I'm learnin songs, from the beginning to the end against backing tracks but for me it's makin me learn chords on my guitar and I'm really gettin more familiar with the fret board. I started out playin dobro like this too and one day I began jammin with other Bluegrass musicians and that's where the real learnin started. I learned to play more fill licks around singers and other instruments and to sorta drop back a little until it was my turn to take a little ride and also when to just sit out for a few bars. Havin learned all this from my dobro playin has made me think more this way with my steel and someday if I get the opportunity to play with others in a band setting I think I'll be able to fit in a little better. What also helped me immensely was havin those Bluegrass guys with all their experience and patience to show me when and where to play my dobro, they could have very easily just not invited me back again (maybe me bein the only dobro player they new had something to do with it too though, ha ha), But seriously learnin to play a song from beginning to end against rhythm tracks is great practice but knowin when and where to play or not to is the most important thing a musician can learn.

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 14 Jan 2006 3:10 pm

I think it's critical for the entire band to make a conscious effort to listen to the what everyone else is doing at any given time. Pay attention to the whole and not be so concerned about their individual part. So many bands play in such a way that each member is playing "pedal to the metal," 100 mph. The individual dynamics of each instrument is lost as the whole thing ends up getting run through a blender. In our band, we have the philosophy that we are a rhythm section, supporting whoever is out front at any given time, whether it be the vocals or ride. We make a conscious effort to not overplay. We don't have it written in stone as to who always takes the first ride, or first half of the split, or whatever...sometimes it's the nod or the eyeball, and once in a while we scre up. But I'm really thankful that we don't have a bunch of undisciplined glory hounds "babbling" all the time.

I think the teaching/training observation is right on the money, because it IS so important to know when to lay back, and when to not play at all. This Forum is awesome.

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Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Jan 2006 3:11 pm

some learn by being beaten into submission . . .
others never learn and get fired from the band

A few figure it out early on and never have to fight the battle.

If you are playing in a band, the BAND and the SONG are the thing. The steel part is icing on the cake and should be used sparingly. Unless you are featured -- e.g., at a steel show -- realize that it ISN'T ALL ABOUT THE STEEL GUITAR PART.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jud Thomas · Post by **Jud Thomas** » 14 Jan 2006 3:11 pm

James,
As a beginner looking for a good course to learn by, which are the ones that best show how to play this way? As a true back-up player, that is.
Thanks,
Jud

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 14 Jan 2006 3:28 pm

When I first started playing out, one of the first things imposed on a new player by the experienced players was to learn "when to play" and when "not to play". The rule of never "playing on top of someone elses note" was strictly enforced....and if you didn't learn that in one job you were not invited back!

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<img width=125 src=http://us.st11.yimg.com/store1.yimg.com ... 76_6924874>
www.genejones.com

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 14 Jan 2006 3:48 pm

Jud, I really should email you to prevent a side thread, BUT, I am going to tell you what I, meaning ME, JAMES, have found to be the best. I DO NOT mean to hurt feelings here, just being honest. Jeff Newman and Reece Anderson are TO ME, the best bang for the buck. LET ME WARN YOU!!! If you get Reece Anderson's course, BE READY TO STUDY...IT'S MUCH MORE THAN TABLATURE, IT'S A LEARNING EXPERIENCE. BE willing to STUDY it and read it MANY times......James

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 14 Jan 2006 4:13 pm

I think courseware is designed to learn a complete song as if you were specifically showcasing the steel guitar without a vocalist. You get more for your money that way.

It is up to you to tailor your playing on the bandstand and support the vocalist and other instumentalists.

Learning when not to play is easier than most realize. All you have to do is listen to your favorite records and note when the steel, fiddle, and guitars are playing and when they are not playing.

learn to appreciate and genuinely listen to the solos of others in your band.

Terry[This message was edited by Terry Edwards on 14 January 2006 at 04:14 PM.]

John Coffman · Post by **John Coffman** » 14 Jan 2006 4:14 pm

Great thread, I'm soaking up all this good advice. Thanks guys

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Thomas SD10 3/4 and D10 8/5 Beginner

Dick Wood · Post by **Dick Wood** » 14 Jan 2006 4:17 pm

James, part of the problem is as you described it. We all learn to play but aren't taught when not to play.As time goes by we get our hands spanked by seasoned musicians and it sinks in what we're doing wrong and we learn from it.

Years go by, we get pretty good at playing then a combination of boredom and over confidence sets in and we get back into a bad habit of overplaying all over again.

I played in a very structured band for two years.On most every song I would only play what I was supposed to but now and then I would catch myself overplaying out of shear boredom.

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Cops aren't paid much so I steel at night.

Marlin Smoot · Post by **Marlin Smoot** » 14 Jan 2006 4:29 pm

I think if you have served any amount of time on the bandstand you will sooner or later come across guys who play all the time through the entire song.

I've had keyboard, lead, and fiddle players do the same thing too. Some guys have never played with a steel player before. To really get around this is in the practice room and everyone decide who will play where.

Here's the thing that can drive me crazy: it's time for the steel solo and the lead singer starts doing a "DJ" thing over the music, telling the listeners drink specials, name of his band, how long we're playing, blah blah blah. I don't ever recall me doing that while the singer is in the middle of singing a song? I wounder if I did it would be considered rude?

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Jan 2006 4:52 pm

If you think of a band as five people sitting around a table having a conversation you'll understand the concept. Chaos results when everybody talks at the same time. They call that jazz.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S/D-12 6x6, 1984 Sho-Bud S/D-12 7x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Andy Jones · Post by **Andy Jones** » 14 Jan 2006 5:12 pm

James,I hear you,man!As a 30+ year Bluegrass picker,most of the instruments are playing rhythm during a tune except when it's your break.I learned this early in the game and I think it helped me be a more patient and better steel player.When jamming with acoustic instruments,everyone must be courteous to the other pickers and wait your turn.As a new steel player,my number one goal is to learn to back up a singer with tasteful fills and contribute to the overall sound by properly blending in with the other instruments.When the time comes,I'll try my hand at solos.For now,I'm satisfied with learning to be smooth and keeping good time,seeing the big picture.That's the problem I have with a lot of "country" music of today.I'll stick with Ray Price,Johnny Bush,Ernest Tubb,thank you.Their recordings always sounded so smooth with BE,Buddy Charleton and Weldon Myrick pushing the pedals.Don't leave out Lloyd Green.No wonder they are in the SGHOF!

Sidney Ralph Penton · Post by **Sidney Ralph Penton** » 14 Jan 2006 8:23 pm

i didn't read everyones reply on this issue, but there are a few other ways to look at things rather than two ways. one the courses that you have teach you or any biginner how to play the insturement. eveerything has a starting point. first before you play in a band you have to have some idea of where the notes are that you should play. this is part of the learning experience. these courses teach you how to play where the notes are how to keep count etc. a person i don't care how much experience they have on a guitar when they set down with a band on a pedal steel they have to know where the notes are that they are to play etc. its all just a learning experience/process. after you learn some of these things then you sit down with a band you become more accustom to what notes to play etc to help be a part of making the band sound good. nothing will teach you like experience. doc

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zum SD10 peavy vegas 400 peavy session 400 steelseats they are great at sales@steelseats.com
if its not a zum steel it isn't real
just trying to steel for the Lord>

Marc Friedland · Post by **Marc Friedland** » 15 Jan 2006 12:08 am

James,
You make a very interesting and valid point, though I don't think it's quite as black and white as you stated. One of my best learning tools is playing along with recordings. This includes both male and female artists, new and old country, non-country, etc.
For example, let' say I'm playing along to an Alan Jackson record. It does teach me when and when not to play, as long as I listen to what the steel is actually playing on a particular song. Some times when I play to it, I try to only play in the same spots as on the record. Other times I'm playing scales or licks during the entire song, or using the song as a platform to improvise over. For me all of these things have a place and are valuable. The important thing is to realize the differences and know how to apply what I've practiced and learned. For me, it's not difficult to realize that jamming over a song in a practice room may have it's rewards, but of course it's not appropriate to play that way in a live band situation. My "comfort zone" is playing for the total sound, and even though I sometimes practice, by playing "too much" I am never tempted to do that when on the bandstand. Maybe, the reason why it's easy for me, is because I've been perfoming music for quite a long time, and I started by learning to play with using a "band" concept. I apologize if I'm rambling too much, as I realize I'm getting pretty tired, so I'll stop now.
-- Marc

Jason Schofield · Post by **Jason Schofield** » 15 Jan 2006 12:35 am

Or we could all do like Joe Wright and form a trio. Steel, drums & bass. Go ahead and play your heart out man!!!