Ever been out of tune on a recording???

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 23 Apr 2005 6:35 pm

Pretty good answers Bobby, I mean Robbie, sorry about the name. I guess you were kidding, you did admit that there is no such thing as being perfectly in tune. Drugs to lighten up? This is the second post you have refered to drugs. Whats with this?
Now, how do you tune? You seem to have more fun attacking me than you do talking about how you tune "perfectly". Why don't you put the personal problems you have aside and tell us in depth how you get every note to be in tune with your "perfect" recording session. Do you temper tune by ear? Peterson tuner? How are your "F" notes in relation to the piano's?
Do me a favor and leave drugs out of any posts that involve me and stick to the facts that will help other players, and possibly me, I'll listen with an open mind, I'm not assuming to "know it all". But I'd like to, if you and anyone else care to add something other than attacks. Teach me, this is how I learn,

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 23 Apr 2005 6:46 pm

I agree with Bobbe, I'm always ready to learn, and I'll be the first to admit I have a lot to learn, especially from a real professional seasoned master session man. I've heard Bobbe on plenty of records, what have you played on that we've heard of, Robby? Yes, I know you've played with Frenchy Burke and a couple other big ones, but attacking Bobbe won't win you any friends here, and your drug references are way off base.[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 24 April 2005 at 03:08 AM.]

Mike Headrick · Post by **Mike Headrick** » 23 Apr 2005 7:17 pm

My thoughts:

Being in tune and playing in tune are two different matters. I've recorded several top players over the years. I've heard others on demos they may have thought would never see the light of day. The best get a little pitchy here and there. It's the nature of the instrument pitted against the nature of the man. These great steel CDs you hear take time and patience. Sometimes there is magic on a first take, and sometimes there is frustration and compromise on a final take. Other times a player may leave a session thinking he nailed it, and then hear a "tuning" variance later that he didn't realize was there. So...I think I am correct in saying that none of us play "in tune" all the time, even the masters.

Robby Springfield · Post by **Robby Springfield** » 25 Apr 2005 9:13 am

Hello Boobe, I mean Bobnoxious…it’s me again! Let’s get right to it shall we? Attacks? Let’s dial in on that just a moment…kind of like tuning up! You know how to do that don’t you? Allow me to quote you on your first reply to me… “Bobby Springfield, I bet you don't even know that E 9th Fretboards are temperd differently that C 6th fretboards”. Sounds just like an attack on my intelligence to me. By the way, I just copied and pasted your fine works here…have you ever heard of a word processor with spelling and grammar check? And one more quote from you… “Do you know the difference between a musical mathamatical scale and a tempered scale?” Why Bobnoxious, we barely know each other and your ASSuming so many things. Was that another attack on me or is that just your usual degrading M/O? Here we go again with another quote from you… “I bet you really play in tune.” Now that one really hurt, Bobnoxious!!! And just a couple more quotes from you to drive the point home… “I guess you think you are "in tune" if the needle on your Korg indicates 440 on every note, huh?” “Bet your E to F lever really sounds great!” And you said I just wanted to attack you????? Seems to me you drew first blood.

You said “teach me”…well here goes with something that you really need to learn. STOP opening your mouth and sticking both of your feet in! Of course, I’ll be polite here and speak to Bobnoxious rather than Bobbe SeyLessHearMour. Have you gained any weight since you quit seeing Dr. Sn__ ? You see, most people I know that have overcome their drug habits don’t mind talking or joking about it…how about you?

If this was just about me, I wouldn’t waste my time writing this C-Rap cause I could care less what you think of me or say about me. What bothers me is you talk that way to many people on the forum and I can only imagine what goes on behind closed doors in your own home. I have read some of your post on the forum and I think that there are a lot of people that would like to tell you where to get off but just couldn’t bring themselves to do it. Well, I have never been one to be that politically correct and I don’t need to buy anything from you.

You also told me to stick to the facts so here goes:

1. Players CAN make a steel guitar and other instruments sound perfectly in tune!
2. Drums are not always out of tune like the rest of the band.
3. You need to get control of yourself and your little typing fingers.
4. You need to stop degrading people and quit trying to make yourself look so INTELLIGENT…it’s NOT working!
5. I think you owe me an apology and I’ll take it here on the forum.
6. I’m done!

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 25 Apr 2005 9:50 am

Wow! Dissonance that would make Bartok wince.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Apr 2005 10:06 am

Bartok could control his dissonance....

Look guys, this is a slagging match, and WAY off topic now...

As for me.. neither wins.. you BOTH lose.

Both have made valid points levened with BS.

So either get back on topic, or call it a day...
please friends

Bob C. asked a legit question...

I think "relative tuning" is what works,
and that is a variable different for each and ever song.

Even the SAME song done in a different key in some ways.
Since the other instruments are now played in different ranges,
the steel then also needs a differnt compensation,
from mathimatically true to practically sweet. IMHO

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 25 Apr 2005 10:26 am

Come on guys.

A little SGF etiquette is in order.

You don't go attackin' a steel players tuning techniques!!

A steel tuning technique is about all a man's got he can call his own!

It's not about being in tune. It's about trying to tune this d@mn instrumnent. Everybody gets as A for effort.

Now go have a beer, put on your favorite "out-of-tune-country-classic" and enjoy life.

Sheeeesh!!

Terry

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 25 Apr 2005 10:38 am

Geez.. you guys ever notice every time I post something its as though I whacked a hornets nest with stick at a backyard wedding and then ran away??..

Even when I'm trying to be good, murder and mayhem follow!!... Please calm down Bobbe and Robbie my good friends.. Its all good. Its just a discussion forum...

I think we're all taking this a bit too seriously.... Bobbe, you've always tried to help me out,always very kind, and that fact is REALLY appreciated!! bob

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 25 Apr 2005 2:25 pm

I could continue this "slug match" and may even find a small amout of fun in doing so, but I'm at a disadvantage because I don't have any knowledge of who I'm dealing with here. I have never heard of the person that is attacking me. He claims to be a big studio players of 38 years, however, of the thousands of players I know the world over, this is one that has slipped by. He made the statement that many people want me to shut up, keep quiet, and go away.
It would be a lot cheaper and easier if I did. But as someone that always wanted to play better, know more about steel guitar and share knowledge, I have always hoped that everyone wanted what I did, and that was to learn from my fellow players and generally get the best info from as many places as possible.
This is a steel guitar forum that is read by thousands of steel guitar fans and many great players. Everything that is written here should be for the purpose of ferthering the love and learning of steel guitar.
Sure, humor doesn't hurt, and looking for long lost friends is a feature here, the great news on the events and announcments page, the for sale page is nice and a lot of fun for all.
There can be the sharing what we all have learned over the years, this is a wonderful thing.
HOWEVER, the personal bickering, fighting, arguing between two people, any two people, that don't even know each other, yes, I said don't even know each other, can be of very little value to anyone.
It matters not who started what, who said what, or why it was said. The bottom line is, keep this forum positive for the masses, it needs to have intelligent value for the players that have the love of steel guitar and want to learn, get to know great people to share with and have fun and be positive.
I can take my personal disagreements to email, telephone or the lawyers office, but I feel this great forum should be used for it's original purpose, and this isn't to do what is happening here.
I would really like to hear from you players on this, what do you guys want to see this forum used for? Post it here or email me personally.
Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 25 Apr 2005 2:37 pm

Richard Burton,Les Anderson, Jennings, David L. Donald, Jon Jaffe, Terry Edwards, Jim Phelps, Johnathan G., Dave Mudgett, and Lee,
Thank you for offering your personal thoughts on this matter. Some good tuning advice and some good personal advice. This intelligent and considerate posting is very constructive for all. I will apoligise to all I have mentioned if I have offended any of you.
NOW,,,,,,,,,, Lets get on with some positive tuning thoughts.
Bobbe

Bill Brummett · Post by **Bill Brummett** » 25 Apr 2005 5:07 pm

As a very old timer -- I go all the way back to starting out taking lessons from Shot Jackson in Shreveport, La. in 1949 -- I have always felt that so called perfect tuning never sounded quite right. I've always tuned an E string to whatever was handy and then did the rest by ear, regarless of the neck tuning I was doing.

In reading and re-reading this thread, my take is that Robbie's first post started out AGREEING with Bobbe but somehow he got the impression that Bobbe believed in absolute "true tuning". And then --mind you, this is my impression and I may well be wrong -- that he threw in the "drug statement" as a joke. But it's easy to see how someone might be offended by something like that. And then it escalated.

From what I've read here my interpretation is that both guys have the same general philosophy about absolute tuning and the other stuff went way off track without each party really hearing what the other was really saying.

I think the forum should be a place where folks can disagree. Wouldn't be much of a forum if we couldn't.

I can't think of another instrument which has so many different ways of getting the same note(s) and this guarantees us of many disagreements. But as long as the disagreements don't get personal, then that's healthy.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 25 Apr 2005 5:18 pm

Bill, you may be correct, I hope so.
Sometimes another point of view can be a little clearer.

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 25 Apr 2005 5:26 pm

There was a young steeler from Tunisia
Who suffered a case of amnesia
His tuning quite sharp
Tho’ he played from the heart
The result would most certainly please ya

Terry

Ed Byerly · Post by **Ed Byerly** » 25 Apr 2005 5:37 pm

I think it's great that folks can give their honest opinion on these pages! I have to say that I have learned more than my fair share of knowledge from these pages and from Bobbe in particular. I would like to thank everyone that takes the time to participate!! I don't believe anyone really wants to slam anyone else---could be just some misunderstood humor. Anyways---lighten up, life is too short! Friends are too few. As far as tuning...just do the best you can for the listener's sake & then keep the bar positioned where it belongs... (I believe that's on the corner of Fourth & Main). I don't spend my whole break tuning, I just crank those little knobs until it's "Close enough for country".

------------------
Carter S-12, Nashville 400 & Vegas 400, Digitech Quad, Hilton Volume, Steeler's Choice side kick seat.

Ed Byerly

Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 25 Apr 2005 6:16 pm

So we took a thread asking an honest question and turned it into a battle of semantics. What is "in tune?" Is it what your ear tells you, or what the little plastic box tells you? I vote for the ears. Oh, and by the way, my dad's equal-tempered tuning can beat up your dad's just tuning. Who cares? Let the other guy play however he wants!

Bob, to answer your question, and to try to get this thread back on subject, I have had some pretty interesting intonation issues, which I attribute to lack of experience, and having a studio mix with too much "Me" in it, which are both, interestingly enough, my own fault. I've found that if the steel is too loud in my earphones, it's hard for me to listen to the rest of the instruments, and accordingly, I play out of tune with the overall mix. I am usually flat, because I'm still used to looking at fret markers as a crutch.

So far as the instrument itself being in tune, that's very important. No matter how good your ear is and your intonation with the bar, if your guitar isn't in "tune" with itself, it won't sound good. And therein lies the problem with our, and all other musical instruments about tuning. If you're out of tune a certain amount, it'll sound good. If you're in tune exactly, it won't. I tried tuning everything straight up 440, and gave it up after a day. It just sounded horrible to my ears. Then I did some research and found that Western music has been written and played in tempered tuning for the last 300 years. This is because music tends to change chords frequently.

So, if you tune your guitar (or piano, or bass, or any other instrument) to 440 every time, you will only be playing "IN TUNE" for one key. For most of us, that's E and C. The further you get away from that key towards the tritone (opposite the tonic on the circle of fifths) the more out of tune you'll sound.

I love music theory class, it makes me sound like a nerd.

-MG

P.S. - That's why I'm buying a Dingwall bass! Keep that B string sounding, baby!

[This message was edited by Michael Garnett on 25 April 2005 at 07:27 PM.]

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 25 Apr 2005 6:21 pm

I still recall (from college) the mathematical proof that was used to illustrate that if one tries to tune a perfect circle of 5ths, he will end up back at C with an error. The error was found MANY years ago (before anyone here played his first note) and is called "Pythagorean Comma". Mathematically it can be proven just as Mr. Seymoure said. Now trust me, I know I am not the steel player that most of you are, but I do know that "in tune" is kind of the same thing as saying "tolerable to the human ear." Just thought I would share that, not that its important or that anyone cares what I have to say, after all, I made a comfortable living and never recorded at all. But I can assure you I enjoyed the music just as much as any of you have

. To me, "perfect tune" means "it dont stick out like turd in a punch bowl."..James

Craig A Davidson · Post by **Craig A Davidson** » 25 Apr 2005 6:22 pm

Robby all I can say is sit back and take a deep breath. I once had a disagreement with Bobbe on here and it turned ugly. All over a misunderstanding. Bobbe is a very talented player. If he is out of tune I want to be like him. I don't doubt your ability either but I have heard Bobbe personally. I also don't think the drug references have a place here either. Relax, man, life is too short.

------------------
1985 Emmons push-pull,Evans SE200,Hilton pedal, Jag Wire Strings

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 25 Apr 2005 6:33 pm

(..burp..... I'll have another..... whaddya mean I've had enough????.....)

I think I'm in a Pithagerian Coma..

EJL [This message was edited by Eric West on 25 April 2005 at 07:43 PM.]

James Sission · Post by **James Sission** » 25 Apr 2005 6:40 pm

Could be worse man, you coould suffer from Syntonic Comma. Start with C and tune 4 perfect 5ths to E. Start from the same C and tune 2 octaves and a pure 3rd to E.
The two Es are not the same.

A perfect 5th is 702 cents

702+702+702+702=2808 cents

An octave is 1200 cents and a pure 3rd is 386 cents
1200+1200+386=2786 cents

2808 - 2786 = 22 cents = Syntonic Comma

And a shave and haircut is 15 dollars and 50 cents if you go to the right barber

...Nice site, but my my, the personalities are more interesting than the music at times

...James

Larry Strawn · Post by **Larry Strawn** » 25 Apr 2005 6:45 pm

I'll have what Eric's having!!
Larry

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 25 Apr 2005 6:52 pm

Oh and this gem from MG's last post on the first page:

So, if you tune your guitar (or piano, or bass, or any other instrument) to 440 every time, you will only be playing "IN TUNE" for one key. For most of us, that's E and C. The further you get away from that key towards the tritone (opposite the tonic on the circle of fifths) the more out of tune you'll sound.

WHAT????.

That came from a school?

I think I'll stick with my now secret tuning chart.

The one Bobbe and others suggested on my trip to Nashville. It works in keys that are beyond G#...

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 25 April 2005 at 08:00 PM.]

Larry Strawn · Post by **Larry Strawn** » 25 Apr 2005 6:56 pm

James,,
You lost me way back there some where,,

But it sounds like you're tellin me if I get my steel tuned so it don't sound like a cat with it's tail caught in the door, and if it's blending with the other instruments, instead of clashing like jet airplane, and fog horn, I might be all right?? Kinda sorta??

Larry

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 25 Apr 2005 7:24 pm

Bobbe Seymour - I think most of us on this forum (certainly me) want to hear from you. You're a big target since you're so well known and sometimes outspoken, but that is what this forum is for. Speaking out.

It is really easy to misread a post and misconstrue something. I've done it, and others have done it to me, and I've only been here a matter of months. But personal attacks demean this entire forum. Why do people do it? Because they can. What does it take to stop it? I dunno, I'm not smart enough to figure that out. But it would be good if we could. I realize it's hard to figure out exactly how a 'light-hearted' joke will be taken by someone, but if it's not obvious, perhaps it'd be better not to say it. I'd rather see us do battle on matters that matter. Those are: points about steel guitar. The other stuff is a serious distraction.

Paul Franklin made a post on the "Why So Loud" thread to the effect that volume didn't matter so much as that everyone is balanced, volume-wise. I think that relates to this thread. If everybody is clearly balanced and listening carefully to each other in a band, serious pitch problems will be obvious, and therefore correctable, unless someone has really poor pitch. But if you can't hear it, it's impossible to fix. I'd like it if I could hear everything on a bandstand as well as I hear at home or at a low-volume rehearsal. I think a lot (not all) of these problems would go away.Duke Ellington and others have said there are two kinds of music: good and bad. Of course, what one considers good and bad is personal taste. This relates, because, to me, there are two kinds of pitch relations between instruments in a band: good and bad. If it's not bad, then it's good. Within the good, there's some latitude for personal expression. That's what makes it art and not just organized noise. Just my $0.02

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 25 Apr 2005 7:43 pm

James Sisson, WOW!
How can something become so negitive and then turn around and become so brilliant and positive? Guess what, I have learned some valuable things here.
I see now what my piano tuning father was saying to me 50 years ago! Things like , "A sharp is sharper than a flat is flat", Lows need to be tuned slightly lower that true pitch, and the highs need to be streched slightly higher. I'm seeing some of you saying the same thing, only better than I did.
This is an incredible thread,,, now.
Pardon me, I have to re-read what some of you said, and try to remember it!
Thank you,
Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 25 April 2005 at 08:59 PM.]

Michael Garnett · Post by **Michael Garnett** » 25 Apr 2005 8:06 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Oh and this gem from MG's last post on the first page:

quote:So, if you tune your guitar (or piano, or bass, or any other instrument) to 440 every time, you will only be playing "IN TUNE" for one key. For most of us, that's E and C. The further you get away from that key towards the tritone (opposite the tonic on the circle of fifths) the more out of tune you'll sound.

WHAT????.

That came from a school?

I think I'll stick with my now secret tuning chart.

The one Bobbe and others suggested on my trip to Nashville. It works in keys that are beyond G#...

EJL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some guy named J.S. Bach... or something like that... I forget now... I've slept since then. Before Equal Tempered instruments, there were harpsichords and pianos that were different tunings, some in C, some in G, etcetera. Now being a harmonica player doesn't sound so bad, try hauling 7 pianos around to play a gig? With equal tempered tuning, one can play in all twelve diatonic keys and not sound incredibly out of tune.

Oh, and I'd like to just point out a little bit of gospel here... If the Big E does it, it must be the "RIGHT" way to do it. (P.S. that's a joke.)
http://www.buddyemmons.com/TTChart.htm

-El Garnetto Temperado[This message was edited by Michael Garnett on 25 April 2005 at 09:07 PM.]