The Steel Guitar Forum

b0b, I don't mean to disagree, but I believe
there is a difference in pedal feel between
keyed & keyless steels. I hope you will agree that there is a difference at least in the travel....I agree there's a difference in the changer designs from one brand to another that affects the pedal "feel" and leverage, but travel is a part of "pedal feel" isn't it?? Travel is shorter with the keyless by at least a slight amount. One forumite a few years ago suggested maybe 12% less travel.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Doug Seymour on 06 June 2002 at 05:37 PM.]</p></FONT>

I suppose if you used the same changer holes and puller positions, the travel could be less on a keyless. I always adjust the leverage to suit myself.

In my experience, differences in pedal action between brands are far greater than any difference that might exist between keyed and keyless within a given brand.
My Sierra Olympic (keyed, 24.5") is set up with shorter travel than my Sierra Session (keyless, 25"). I needed stiffer action on the Olympic pedals that were moving fewer strings, so I ended up with shorter travel.

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<small><img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Doug,

You are absolutely correct. IF one takes a keyless 25 and 1/2 inch scale guitar vs a 24 and 1/4 inch keyed guitar, the keyless will require MORE inch/pounds to pull a given string to a given pitch.

Everything else being equal a Sierra keyless (25 inch scale) will be harder to engage a given change than a keyed 24 and 1/4 inch Emmons (keyed). This from actual tests made by me in trying to figure out why my pedals and knee levers felt stiffer on my Sierra than on my Emmons. EVEN though the travel was further on the Sierra!!!

I don't believe it has anything to do with the fact one is keyless and the other one is keyed. Rather, I believe it is caused by the fact that most keyless guitars, have longer scales. This because they have less string breakage.

Buddy Emmons said (right on this forum) and Ron Lashley told me that they tried longer scales on their earlier guitars but excessive string breakage ensued. So they settled on the "standard" 24 and 1/4" length.

carl

From a physics standpoint, a keyless guitar will have a shorter stroke than the same model keyed guitar, assuming the changers and scale lengths are the same. This is due simply to the fact that a shorter overall length of string is pulled on a keyless guitar.

Wouldn't it depend on which strings are being pulled? The first and last strings of a keyed guitar are pretty close to the keyless in length.

<SMALL>Wouldn't it depend on which strings are being pulled?</SMALL>

Of course. The middle two strings (5&6 on a 10 string) would exhibit the largest difference.

My new keyless Zum is set up exactly the same as my conventional Zum, and there does seem to be a slight difference in the pedal action, the keyless being quicker. The old one isn't set up right now or I'd measure the difference. It's not much. The keyless stays in tune incredibly well (as does my gearless Sierra).

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Doug Earnest
The only Zum Keyless U12, Zum2000U12,Sierra12,Sho-Bud ProII D10 PV DPC 750 ProFex 112E, Fender Cyber Twin

I've found on my Williams U-12 keyless that I have to concentrate, and can't relax, my foot when engaging the B pedal [G#-A].

I could 'lessen my grip' more on the D-10
keyed Sho-Bud.

There is definitely more tension on the keyless. If my mind starts to drift while engaging the B pedal [like taking in everything else that is going on in the moment] then FLATNESS & OUT-OF-TUNENESS will be easily noted by all present.

ChipsAhoy

I would like to add a few comments about keyed vs. keyless and 24" vs. 25" scales. It would be inappropriate for me to take a side as I would be prejudiced. Keyless is one of my pet projects but due to using 5 different extrusions and long assembly time, we end up with less profit on the keyless.
Keyless will not eliminate string breakage. It will help only because of shorter pedal travel. When a string is bent at the changer so many times, it will break regardless of how it is anchored at the other end.
As for 25" vs. 24" scale, I have done some tests with the following results. Check them out and decide for yourself. (The figures are approximate.)
Using an .011 gauge string, it took 26.5 lbs of tension to tune it to a G# with the 24" scale. It took 30 lbs to raise it to an A. Still using an .011 string, it took 30 lbs to tune to a G# with a 25" scale and 32 lbs to raise it to an A. Break point on the average .011 was 34 lbs.
Keyless will feel and sound more solid in the middle strings as about 25" of string or less is being stretched vs. 32" plus being stretched on a keyed guitar depending on the length of the keyhead. Anything other than this is a matter of opinion and I don't pretend to be an expert on this.
I will say that a true test must be on the same type of instrument, all other things being equal. Different instruments with different changers and linkage will have different characteristics.
NOTE: Jim Smith earned his rights to comment with several years of assembly and research at Dekley, Fessenden and M.C.I.

Thanks for the compliments Gene, but when it comes to the "real" technical stuff, you are
"the man". I don't know of anyone that has done more research on pedal steel and the physics of creating music in general than Gene Fields.

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Jim Smith jimsmith94@attbi.com
-=Dekley D-12 10&12=-
-=Fessenden Ext. E9/U-13 8&8=-

GfI,

With much respect, and much Christian love, we will agree to disagree.

A 24 and 1/4" keyless PSG, WILL have less string breakage (everything else being equal) than a 24 and 1/4" keyed PSG.

I can, and have proven it beyond ANY shadow of a doubt. The tension on strings 3 thru 7 is MUCH less on a keyless guitar. And tension IS what breaks strings. True, they happen to break at the top of the changer in most cases. But the root cause is the tension, in this analogy.

If a PSG has the Anapeg or Excel (Super B) type changers, the strings will rarely if EVER break. Plus, if one were to make two identical guitars of either of the above (and everything else was equal), the keyed instrument WOULD break strings quicker than the keyless, IF, they ever broke at all.

My Excel is now over 2 yrs old. It has the original strings, except two, as an ongoing test. It has been played just about every day for hours at a time since April 5th, 2000.

It has broken two strings; the 1st string and the 4th string. The 4th string was defective from the first day and broke shortly after I received the guitar. The 2nd string broke because I was asking too much from it.

I coupled the change (F# to G# on string 1 with the lowering of string 6 from G# to F#). Since the lowering of my 6th string a whole tone is my MOST used knee lever, that 1st string was just not capable of that much stretching and relaxing.

I rarely openly debate with ANY one on this forum. But this time, I simply have too much actual test experience concerning this subject to let it alone.

God bless you all,

carl

Carl, I don't see what part of Gene's post you are disagreeing with, you both said the same thing, just with different words. All he said about string breakage was essentially what you just said:

<SMALL>Keyless will not eliminate string breakage. It will help only because of shorter pedal travel. When a string is bent at the changer so many times, it will break regardless of how it is anchored at the other end.</SMALL>

Gene didn't specifically state that a keyless guitar of the same scale length has less string tension, but it's empirically obvious because the string is shorter. His tension figures attest to that, just think of the shorter scale as a shorter string and vice verse.

It is good to see a Steel Guitar builder of Gene Fields credentials posting on The Forum.....al

Gene, I believe in your guitars and at this point, will have nothing else on stage. Thank you for your keyless, I just DON'T break strings much, if at all. The Ultra is ---- the ultra. Thank you Gene for what you do.

Gene Fields is the WORLD AUTHORITY on keyless steel guitars. Jody.

Amen to that!!<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Steven Knapper on 15 June 2002 at 04:58 AM.]</p></FONT>

I bought a keyless unit from Joe Kline in 1976 and put it on my "The Steel" (which had black legs and rods when I first built it in 1972). I then got a Kline in 1978 and have used it since. I have played a number of Anapegs as well, and find them outstanding.
I can't imagine why anyone would NOT want to have a keyless. The strings are easier to change when they break, and the size makes the guitar much lighter.
Sorry to see that the new MSA has innovated in the material side of things, but kept "looking like a steel"
sigh...

JW

There are also other advantages with keyless guitars. They are about 10 inches shorter in length (so they fit into smaller spaces on small stages), 15(?) pounds lighter and much better looking. I own 2 U12 Klines.

Keyless is a blessing. Thanks, Gene Fields, for your dial (wrenchless) tuning.

Al

The keyless/gearless on my new SIERRA does not have the old "pretensioning" issue when changing strings = zip zip!

The Changer and tuner are integrated into one unit.

And a bunch more "modernizations" in mechanism and signal path.

See it at the Mesa AZ show next week.

Carl,
In reference to your earlier post, my only experience with the 25” scale other than the Sierra was when Shot Jackson and I were building Sho~Buds. It was during the time the high G# was added to the tuning that we encountered the string breakage problem and had to reduce the scale 24 ½ inches.

To be different than Sho~Bud and possibly reduce string breakage even more, I had fifty 24 ¼” Emmons atom fret boards made in Nashville and gave them to Ron to use on the first guitars. By that time, the Sho~Bud fret board had proven that the longer scale didn’t work so there was no need to experiment with the Emmons guitar. Ron had built a Sho~Bud clone prior to my meeting him and may have been referring to that guitar, but the Emmons guitar started at 24 ¼” and stayed there.

Billy… Regarding the topic, I prefer the keyless sound. Jeff Newman had a great sounding Kline keyless S-12 he used during seminars he and I held. We had just finished playing a phrase for the class and while they were absorbing it, Jeff smiled and leaned over and said, “Why does my guitar sound better than yours?” His Kline did have a cleaner sound but I wasn’t about to admit it so I replied, “Because you have a tin ear.” His face flushed and all he could do was force a chuckle. It was one of the few times I ever saw Jeff at a loss for words.

I think the keyless changer is suspect. The ones I have had a chance to work with would not keep
in tune more than about 5 minuts. Now it seems the
GFI keyless is a good one and B0b loves his sierra.
I have not tried those steel mfg keyless changers.
Anyone els have trouble getting thier keyless to tune up and stay tuned?

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Mullen S12 Almost Mooney
71 Tele, Regal 45
Sho Bud S10 NP
Line 6 Flextone 3 + JBL D130, Nash 112

What brands of keyless did you find suspect?

Scott, the Kline keyless most definitely stays in tune for many moons.... steve

I also have played the Klines & found them to be a great guitar, they keyless that I am now playing is kind of a 'home made' S-12 that a friend of mine built, needless to say he was a great machinist, & he made this one a keyless around 20 or so years ago, still plays & stays in tune well, and string breakage is the best that I have ever owned. Keyless works real good!! Have you ever noticed you don't see many dinosours around these days? I think they had a problem with 'change'. Hum??

Ernie

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