The Steel Guitar Forum

Roger Rettig wrote:...Entertainers and/or musicians of all levels are very thick on the ground. There's no shortage and the general level of remuneration reflects this.

That's very true. In the old days the only time you saw performers was when they visited town, so there were always a lot of musicians touring, and plenty of work for them. Nowadays you can turn on the TV or internet, or buy DVDs, so one recorded performance takes the place of many live ones. Also, the availability of instruments and recording equipment that everyone can buy means that there are a lot more musicians and would-be musicians around.
I wonder how the next generation of musicians will survive, with everyone pirating their music, and far less opportunity to play live.
You would think that with twice the population that there was twenty years ago there would be twice the opportunities, but, unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Twice the number of people can watch the same transmitted programme, but there are also twice as many up-and-coming musicians.

A lot of good points here from several sides of the issue.
But consider, no one would ask musicians to play for free… if musicians quit playing for free.
Yes, I understand the hobby player who loves to get out with a live band.
Yes, I understand the many costs to a venue owner leading them to underbid wherever possible.
But I also understand what happens when there are many available "free" bands.

I'm living near a town (Athens, Ga) with many professional level players and many more, um, less professional. There are literally hundreds of venues here or nearby, and nearly every one of them knows they can book a mediocre band for little to nothing any night of the week. While there is some discernment among the various patrons, over time this has led to a "dumbing down" of the whole scene, where people know they can go into any number of venues and listen to lame to barely interesting music- and that has become the "norm".

The end result is great frustration among the pro level players who are desperately trying to eke out a living playing good music for a living wage, fighting an uphill battle against both cheapskate venues and indifferent audiences. Very sad, and does not bode well for expanding creativity.

Years ago I played a popular dance club in Cathedral City, CA. They ran music 6 nights a wk @ the going rate of 68.50 per player
per night. It was summer and the daytime temp had been 118F and at midnight it was still 110F. At break time I asked for
a glass of water and was told by the bartender to go out back and drink from the hose. I offered to buy a drink of water and was
again told to go out back and drink from the hose and each band member was told the same thing. It was at this point that we
decided we had been insulted and disrespected to the max. We had one more set to play; however, we packed up our equipment,
did not use the stage door but moved our stuff across the dance floor and made people seated at the tables move while we made
our exit out the front door.

The only way that people/club owners can take advantage of you is if you allow it. After that, before playing any gig, I include
complimentary soft drinks in the contract. No contract, no gig, no exceptions!
Yes, I will play a worthy benefit, but never a freebee for a club. And when I ask "Does it pay?" and I get the crap answer
"Well, it does and it doesn't" I don't show up.

I agree some of us just like to play. A friend's house for a barbecue is great for jamming and we all get to eat. But if there is
money being passed in a club, some of it better stop in my hand.

I had thought this was urban legend, but I came across a very similar request on Craigslist. It was for an art gallery, wanting "smooth Jazz" for free while they had an open house type function.

I found the idea that they were selling art for profit, yet had no concept that they expected art from musicians for free, beyond logic.

I sent them a similar reply offering them to provide their art for free while I sold my mine for a fee. Really sad.... It's not just bars and restaurants that are looking for free music.

Jeff Bollettino wrote:Massage therapists do free backrubs at fairs....

Yes, but they try not to before long.
If you notice, next fair it will be someone else, unless it's someone planning on a career of doing it for free.
Can you imagine being asked to massage a piano for free when money's being made? Body tuning and piano tuning aren't entertainment.

The difference is whether someone is making money off my, and our, endeavors.
I never had a free gig that led to a paid one, but I enjoyed playing for free when that was the scene.

Steven Finley wrote: We had one more set to play; however, we packed up our equipment, did not use the stage door but moved our stuff across the dance floor and made people seated at the tables move while we made our exit out the front door.

I love it!

I should mention I have played free a lot of times.
I've played for free to benefit fellow musicians, and Children's hospital. I just did not play for free at a place that was making money off of people. I also never tried to cut anyone's price.

I know it isn't music, back in the day people seemed to want my dad to repair T.V.s for free. I flatly refuse to work for free. No one else does.

I'd play for free for children's hospital, or an equally worthy cause.

When somebody else is making money while I'm playing for free, it wouldn't be right. I couldn't do that.

I learned my lesson about doing free demos for clubs long ago and will never do one again.

I do get called from time to time to play benefits. If it's for someone I know, I'll gladly do it for free. If it's for people or organizations that I don't know, I charge at least my minimum for a gig to cover my expenses. Most of the organizers know they have to spend money to make money.

The reason people play for nothing is that the money went out of local live music long ago,and most players would rather play for nothing than stay home.They wouldn't put it this way,but it's really an expensive hobby,like golf,or fishing....The bit about how you're supposed to be grateful to do work for nothing is partly by way of venues beating you up over the price of your work,and partly by way of Americans buying into the paradigm that says "from each according to his ability,to each according to his need".

I've played free for nursing homes, a jail ministry, for Jerry's kids M.D. Labor Day Marathon, the Vets fund raisers, volunteer firemen for new fire equipment you name it. I just consider it after almost 40 years of playing, still paying my dues. Had a young couple at church that were getting married, no family, not much money ask our band to play for their wedding for free. We did, then half the church folks had one thing or another they needed music for. So i had to start saying no to everyone.

George makes a good point. Instead of leading to more work, it may lead to more requests to work for free. You don't want to be the band / steeler who everyone calls looking for a freebie.

I'll always play for free, cause I'm not very good, and I enjoy getting to play. I'm never going to be a Mike Johnson, Tommy White, or any of the top notch players. Therefore, my services aren't worth paying for.... I think we all want to make money pickin', but for some of us, reality set in a long time ago, that we're just not that good....That being said, people will actually pay our band for something we would do for free.....Although the pay ain't much, I can buy gas, strings, and was able to buy a beat up "Joe Strummer" Fender Tele last yr....Life is Good, even if it's Free.

I've had to ask club owners what they would expect to pay if he needs 4 plumbers on a weekend night for 4 to 5 hours each. I think it's a fair skilled trade example.

"George makes a good point. Instead of leading to more work, it may lead to more requests to work for free."

Did anyone read my earlier post about the recording session I agreed to do for less-than-scale and the consequences I suffered?

I thought I'd made the same point but apparently not.

Mr Wilson confirms the point,,,,why would a bar owner/promoter pay someone if,,,,they know that someone would play for free,,,,not only does it keep you from making money,,,,it also keeps someone else from making money,,,,and it sets in motion the expectation,,or hope,,,"maybe I can get someone to play for free". Playing for free hurts ALL musicians,,,the good and the bad,,,and all in between.

I can see ya'lls point of playing for free hurts other musicians that could have gotten paid but I've never been in music for the money which I'm sure a lot of you others haven't either.

I have and still do play for free a lot but what really makes me mad is trying to get me to play for free when they are paying someone else to do the same thing.

Several year back, our band always played for the Quadrangle Festival here in Texarkana and we did it for free and we promoted our Opry show which helped it quit a bit. Later, they didn't want us and started hiring(that's right, hiring) "out of town" bands to fill our spot and paying them big bucks and they weren't near as good as us. Heard that from lots of folks. It didn't last long so they were calling us back and when they did, I said yes, we will play it for $2000. They said we can't pay ya'll that. I said you were paying these other half wit bands so you can pay us. She said, oh, but they are "out of town bands". Go figure

Well I got one for ya.
Back in the early 80's, when telephones were still attached to walls, my pals and I would play our country/rock at a local bar on a given friday night for free, just to have something to do. All our friends would show up and we would all have a blast. The owner would leave so the bartenders, also our pals, would give up the beer. So we were set up anyway so we would leave the equiptment and do it again, for free, on saturday night. The empty cases were piled high by now and if we weren't there, the place would be empty. It was border line out of control.
So, heading out the door at about 2:45 in the morning we want to BUY a case of beer & the owner, now returned says "sure, but you owe me like $100 bucks for the beer the bartenders gave you. We said "sure - we got the money in the car" So we took the case of beer and split. Just like, you guessed it, the blues brothers.
Just remembered the owner looked like Fred Flintstone, and if he was coming round, the secret signal was yabba dabba do.

Seriously though, be picky if you are going to work for free.
The road to ruin is paved with good intention.

Rick Campbell wrote:I might add. I agree about the benefit shows. I want people to call me for the shows to help needy people, sick, house fire, etc... I will never turn one down if it's feasible considering distance, etc... Playng music has brought me so much enjoyment, and I've made so many good friends, that I'm very motivated to give something back when I can. I think the vast majority of people here feel the same way.

RC

Essakly, Brother. Most players I know, and especially those with a lot of experience (read: "years."), crawl over each other to play a "benefit" for another player, who, for one reason or another, have fallen on hard times. I think about Herby Wallace, after his stroke. Who's gonna miss a chance to help Herby? I know we had a benefit for Herby--People donated stuff, for an auction, the "Ladies' Auxiliary" baked cakes and pies...The sad truth, though, is that enough money could never be raised to match anybody's standard of living. But if nothing else, a benefit lets somebody know that he (or she) has not been abandoned. That's one of the things we are SUPPOSED to do. JMO...

Rick Campbell wrote:Sorry double post.

RC

I agree.

Here's how I factor this, except for a benefit that I want to do, for which I would refuse money no matter what:

The issue for me is whether or not I need to book my time and be there. If I have the option to show up or not show up, as in an informal jam or other type of informal gig, then I don't need to get paid. It doesn't matter to me who is making money or whatever. But if I have an obligation to book the time, travel, set up and tear down, and play, then I'm gonna get paid or I stay home.

Right now, I don't do many regular gigs - I'm too busy with my college teaching work. But there are some people with whom I can just show up and play if I feel like it. They have contracted the gigs, they're the ones that have to be there no matter what, and they take the money. Oh, occasionally someone will want to throw me some dough, but I don't expect it and frequently tell them to just skip it.

If I take on a professional obligation, I expect to get paid. Otherwise, not.

Once when I was earning 100% of my living from music, I had a decent gig cancelled by the promoter of a large Mardi Gras function.

She explained " we found someone to do it for free, you can do it for free, or you can be replaced " No time to book another gig, we were screwed.

We should have had a contract, but legal fees alone would likely equal the pay for the gig, with only the lawyers profiting.

Dave Mudgett wrote:The issue for me is whether or not I need to book my time and be there. If I have the option to show up or not show up, as in an informal jam or other type of informal gig, then I don't need to get paid. It doesn't matter to me who is making money or whatever. But if I have an obligation to book the time, travel, set up and tear down, and play, then I'm gonna get paid or I stay home.

That pretty much sums up my take on it as well. If someone has a regular gig and asks me to come sit-in, I'm happy to do that.

The other kind of gig worth considering playing for less than your regular rate (maybe not free though) is if you have the opportunity to sell some merch or CDs or whatever. If you are a full-fledged member of a band with creative input and you are playing songs that you wrote then there is the notion of building a fan base and a scene and a sense of community with other bands.

Sometimes it's nice to be a band member and not have that hired gun mentality.

In my main band, we often make as much or more off of t-shirts, CDs, and download cards than we do from the guarantee.

If I was the leader on the gig playing my own music or my arrangements of music I choose to play--my artistic pursuit--I might play a gig for free, but my musicians won't, because I will pay them. I spent many years as "the entertainment", but have chosen not to do that type of work any longer.

I won't work as a sideman for free, though.