Tritone subs...John Steele/Jeff Lampert

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 1 Aug 2002 7:05 am

HI Bob,
Sorry for the delay in responding. Bobby Lee is quite right, there are variations in which sort of tritone chord you use, and the flattened fifth (or to some, 7#11) is one nice variation. (second last chord in the Nightlife intro).
-John

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 1 Aug 2002 8:01 am

Larry: You got me thinking; as usual !! Your comment about ES on rhythm guitar immediately brought back memories of Leonard T Zinn at the Atlanta Steel Guitar Extravaganza a few years back. My attention was drawn to him by his consistantly smooth playing style.

Finally, I could stand it no longer and I had to go to the stage and compliment him.

Then I learned I had seen him when I was a young lad going aroung to fairs and carnivals to listen to the 101 Ranchboys. He was their steel guitarist !!

And as with so many ( I think I'm going to have to change that to ALL...) men of steel,
he was a delight to talk with and a nicer gentle man you would never want to find !!

Regards, Paul

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 1 Aug 2002 8:30 am

Hey, if you wanna play the blues substitution game, here's a Charlie Parker progression in F.

<pre> | Fmaj7 | Em7b5 A7b9 | Dm7 G7 | Cm7 F7 |
| Bb7 | Bbm7 Eb7 | Am7 D7 | Abm7 Db7 |
| Gm7 | C7 | Fmaj7 D7alt | Gm7 C7 |</pre>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 01 August 2002 at 09:32 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Aug 2002 9:22 am

Show off!!!!

And, you're right, as usual, Paul. I should have included my adopted grampa LT as another of the legends of rhythm guitar. He is a class act WHATEVER he chooses to do (or be).
Thanks for the reminder.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 August 2002 at 10:24 AM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 1 Aug 2002 9:29 am

Jeff
If you change bar 7 of you progression to Ab maj7, and alter the turnaround in the last 2 bars, you have Bluesette by Toots Thielmanns.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 1 Aug 2002 10:03 am

Boy do I feel dumb.

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 1 Aug 2002 10:14 am

No way b0b !! I'm learning so dang much in this thread and one I started in Tab that I can hardly keep up !! If you're dumb than I'm surely dumber !!

I think out of the tidbits of news and information on instruments and players, the highest goal of the Forum is it's ability to educate and this is a class example of that in action. I luv it !!

Regards, Paul

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 1 Aug 2002 1:02 pm

Show off!!!!

Hey Larry, I'd be a showoff if I composed that progression, instead of CP. I do think it's very clever, with the descending ii,V's and all. I wish I did come up with something like that. If I do, I will show it off!! It does really point to the fact that you can substitute most anything you want, just so long as it ends up somewhere that makes sense. Resolution and all that sort of thing. Regards. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 01 August 2002 at 02:13 PM.]

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 1 Aug 2002 5:39 pm

Jeff; Any chance you could put that CP chart into Tab for C6th ??

Regards, Paul

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 1 Aug 2002 11:05 pm

You don't necessarily have to sub with dominant chords. Here's a turnback in Eb:
Gm7b5-C7#9/Bmaj7-Emaj7/Ebmaj7.

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 2 Aug 2002 6:54 am

Hey b0b:

The only way I can find a 7b5b9 on my guitar is to push "P5, P6", and lower the C to B. On a "standard" C6th, this would be on strings 2,3,4,5,6, or 2,3,5,6,8. The open notes are F B A Gb Eb, the B being, of course the b5. It is a wild sounding chord. I could get it with the #9 pedal and the A to Bb raise - if - I didn't raise the lower A also. Sometimes there are reasons for not raising or lowering octaves.

How do you get a 7b5b9? Or anyone else out there. I can get four notes of it other ways, but no root- on my setup.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 2 Aug 2002 12:01 pm

Bob G,
I fear b0b was kind of joking around with us, pointing out that the F# would be exactly the same as C7 with the b9 and b5.
b0b didn't count on us humourless theory buffs though.

Here's F7b9#11 (it requires 3 pedals)

1-------
2-------
3--0(7-- 13
4--0(7-- #11
5--0(5-- b9
6--0(6-- 7
7-------
8--0---- 3
9--0---- root
10------

You could optionally use the 7th string (5th) too.
This bare bones (and often rootless) voicing is used by pianists and guitarists alot as a dominant chord option. It is a "Upper Structure" chord. Upper structure chords are like polychords, in the way that
the 3rd and 7th are placed on the bottom to define the chord, and a completely different triad is placed on top. In this case, the piano players would call this "Upper structure #4 minor", meaning
the defining tritone for F is placed on the bottom (A and Eb) and the #4 minor chord is placed over it (In this case Bm). The result: F7b9#11
There are other upper structure chords as well, and they are all dominant chords. Some are more readily available on the steel than others.
Other upper structure chords commonly used are:

II = 7#11 chord
bIII = 7#9 chord
bV = 7b9#11 chord
bVI = altered chord (used alot by steelers)
VI = 7b9
Iminor = 7#9 chord
bII minor = 7b9b13 chord
bIII minor = altered chord
#IVminor = 7b9#11 chord (Our example)

-John
edit: I just tried out the chord I tabbed, and it sounds rotten. I don't know why. It sounds fine on some other instruments. Maybe it's just out of context. -J[This message was edited by John Steele on 02 August 2002 at 01:32 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 2 Aug 2002 1:53 pm

It you are gonna play chords with mulitple alterations and other stuff like that, it would be a big help to have more than the standard C6 copedent. A couple of extra knee levers will get you some additional positions so that you can better find the voicing combination with the melody line that you like best. For example, if you engage pedals 5,6 and lower your 4th string A to Ab, then you get a more pleasant sounding F7b5b9 at the 3rd fret on strings 3,4,5,6, with a root tone on string 1 (with a D string in the tuning), so you get a useful melody note. There are other examples as well, but it helps to have those extra knees, at least IMO. BTW, that chord is a key part of My Funny Valentine (key of Eb/Cm), and Days Of Wine And Roses (key of F), a couple of songs I've played around with. In both cases, it's a D7b5b9, and it works very nicely at the 12th fret. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 05 August 2002 at 08:49 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 3 Aug 2002 10:33 am

John, your little "cheat" post is a great aid. Basically, the F7b5b9 is really just a B7 chord with an F note, i.e. the tri-tone equivilent! So if you're playing backup in a combo, and need that chord, all you need to do is play a B7, which you can readily find in the standard 5+1. I still think that if you intend to arrange melody and bass parts around it, extra pedals are a big help. I'm printing your chart because it's a real good way to find the tough chords, even if you might be missing a root. Thanks. .. Jeff[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 August 2002 at 12:22 PM.]

bob grossman · Post by **bob grossman** » 3 Aug 2002 11:48 am

Jeff:

You gotta lower strings 5 and 6 in addition to 4 (for the chord to be strings 1,3,4,5,6).

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 3 Aug 2002 12:23 pm

I corrected it. Thanks, Bob.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 03 August 2002 at 01:49 PM.]

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 4 Aug 2002 10:43 am

Jeff Lampert wrote:

Basically, the Fb95b9 is really just a B7 chord with an F note, i.e. the tri-tone equivilent!

Now I really feel dumb. Could you spell that chord, please? I have no idea what you mean.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic) Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Aug 2002 11:15 am

All the Bob's keep catching my goofs. I accidentally left the 7 out. It should read F7b5b9. Sorry. I've been very careless lately. Can't explain it. I corrected the post. [This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 August 2002 at 12:18 PM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 4 Aug 2002 11:56 am

glad I got out while the gettin' was good -- it's gettin' deep and I forgot my waders

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 4 Aug 2002 12:31 pm

Jeff, I have a question for you. I have the standard 5+1 setup, but I can add changes to my RKR and LKV. Which changes would you recommend? I can get the I7 with the root on the 3rd string by moving up a fret and using my third string lower and pedals 5 and 6, so I'm thinking of lowering the 4th string and raising the 3rd string. Any thoughts?

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Aug 2002 4:45 pm

My recommendations. Even though you can get the 7th (dominant 7th) chord up one fret by lowering everything, you don't have a low root plus you use up all of those pulls. Getting a 7th chord is only part of the picture. There are many alterations you can make to the 7th but you use them all up making the 7th one fret up. Instead, you need to raise the 4th string so you have the root note available plus all the other pulls using pedals 5,6, and even 8(boo-wah). It's extremely useful. As far as the other available knee lever, I would choose based on your musical preferences. If you are inclined to play mostly western swing, then use the extra pedal to raise the 3rd string to C#. If you want to play jazz, and like to dig into fake books, use the extra pedal to lower the A to Ab. If you have no preference, then either will do. Maybe a slight edge to the third string raise.[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 August 2002 at 08:38 PM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 4 Aug 2002 5:02 pm

Jeff; Any chance you could put that CP chart into Tab for C6th ??

Paul, I've been suffering from "tab burnout" lately, so I haven't been doing whole tabs, but I can do a chord or two. I'm not sure what you need from that Charlie Parker progression. Are there particular chords that you are not sure of? Which ones?[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 04 August 2002 at 06:13 PM.]

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 4 Aug 2002 5:32 pm

Jeff-I have to say that you got it all figured out!

I went through all those chords in George M. Smith's guitar book in 1945.

Then I tried to do it on my 6 pedal Electra-Harp.

However, I had to leave it to the bass player to give me the chord root, lots of times.

If the bass player knew the right notes, it was inspirational. If not, just another job to play........al

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 4 Aug 2002 5:48 pm

Hey Jeff:
You gotta stop mis-spelling them chords, man. Every time you do that, I end up re-rodding my D-10 for nothing!

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 4 Aug 2002 6:18 pm

Jeff: Nothing in particular. I just thought maybe it was right there and you could post it. I'll work it out and see what happens. Appreciate the consideration !!

Regards, Paul