The Steel Guitar Forum

There are two schools of thought (at least) and at times they seem to clash.

The skill level and the playing experience are somewhat of a chicken-or-the-egg scenario. For example, Cal says above playing with good musicians is essential for truly learning well, and I'm not disagreeing with that. Yet occasionally someone on here will remark about some player they saw at a local venue who was sitting behind a steel but sure didn't deserve to be called a steel player. (My words, their sentiment.)

I gather there are a few guys who came out the birth chute with a bar in one hand and picks on the other, and had the steel down pat before Buddy and Ralph started kindergarten. But for the vast majority, it's a long ongoing process.

So while we would like to be able to enjoy expert steel playing when we hear a live performance, we also have to realize the guy up there may be comparatively new at it and perhaps is trying to further his skill by playing live.

I'm not near good enough to consider playing live yet, and in fact that's not my goal - playing well for my own enjoyment is. But I'm sure the day will come when some guys I jam with will want to do some sort of gig and I'm not looking forward to declaring myself ready when I probably will feel I'm not.

Fewer openings for steel players means less demand which means less opportunity to improve the skill level for the next generation. A tough problem to solve.

Don R Brown wrote:
I gather there are a few guys who came out the birth chute with a bar in one hand and picks on the other, and had the steel down pat before Buddy and Ralph started kindergarten. But for the vast majority, it's a long ongoing process.

Got news for 'ya - it's a long and ongoing process for everyone. No one can play it all, no one can do it all. Learning is like a telescope, in that the more you learn (or the bigger your telescope) the more you discover that's out there...to learn, and to look at.

Ditto to what Donny said.

Donnie, I understand and agree. I had my tongue in cheek when I wrote that because I know it's not so. Almost everyone here is helpful upbeat and positive. Once in a great while we may find a post which seems the person making it has forgotten it's ALL acquired knowledge. I make no secret of the fact I'm a beginner, and at my age will probably never acquire the skill level many here achieved long ago.

I used to think of the journey of learning this thing to be linear - a long straight line which one must travel down. Lately I'm starting to think it's more like a puddle or an amoeba, spreading outward in all directions. In one direction we must grow to further understand theory. Playing live with good musicians helps you spread outward in another. Simple motor mechanics and muscle memory may help expand in its own direction. And the various facets overlap and interact as you look around the "circle" of that analogy.

Sorry if this sounds like I've been smoking funny cigarettes or sitting too long in the sun, neither is the case. I'm not trying to sound "heavy" as we used to say. It's just that there is SO much to learn and so many different ways to do that learning. Defining and measuring the skill level that is "out there" is subjective and the changes (fewer live venues to play in, but relatively new things like youtube to help with instructions)make it hard to really compare "then" and "now".

But I'm still having FUN and that's why I bought it.

Donny Hinson wrote:

Don R Brown wrote:
I gather there are a few guys who came out the birth chute with a bar in one hand and picks on the other, and had the steel down pat before Buddy and Ralph started kindergarten. But for the vast majority, it's a long ongoing process.

Got news for 'ya - it's a long and ongoing process for everyone. No one can play it all, no one can do it all. Learning is like a telescope, in that the more you learn (or the bigger your telescope) the more you discover that's out there...to learn, and to look at.

I for one do not feel you have to play it like the original, you can be yourself, at the same time maybe some of the earlier styles (Bakersfield come to mind)and the ability to execute them is being lost a little. Oh sure we older players can do it, yes we have years of practice and the music of today may not lend itself to it, but I sure hope the attention to detail for the style does not just fade into the dust.

Classical music is all about discipline. I hear younger players today taking short cuts in their learning progression and just living with it, because after all it is just the sound of the steel we are after in our rock band, or garage band etc, not the real thing. This is not wrong, just a little watered down as they begin to teach others in the generations to follow.

Larry Behm

It's like Randy Reainhard told me 25 years ago... "It's just a matter of playin'...

Randy Reinhard circa Charlie Pride era...

I'm sure Randy's skill level is not dropping off..
For the rest of us,

I hear younger players today taking short cuts in their learning progression and just living with it, because after all it is just the sound of the steel we are after in our rock band, or garage band etc, not the real thing.

Then let them use this. Hopefully, real live steel players have better ways to waste their time..
http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/nashvillewire

I was going to let this go, but what the heck:

Larry Behm wrote: I hear younger players today taking short cuts in their learning progression and just living with it, because after all it is just the sound of the steel we are after in our rock band, or garage band etc, not the real thing. This is not wrong, just a little watered down as they begin to teach others in the generations to follow.

Larry Behm

I'm a little disappointed to read this from you, Larry.

I am someone who has played in many local rock bands and a couple of country bands too.
IMO, anytime someone brings a pedal steel to perform at a gig, it's a good thing.
It was those "watered down" steel guitar tracks that sparked my interest in pedal steel and led me to those great tracks recorded by people like Ralph Mooney, Lloyd Green, Pete Drake, etc., etc.

I don't really believe that "real" country music will ever completely disappear.
The success of the new Bakersfield recording proves that.
I've said this many times before. There's plenty of room for all styles.

Rick

David Anderson wrote: Think of players like Michael Hedges, Django Reinhardt, Les Paul, Chet Atkins, Frank Zappa, etc...these musicians broke the mold, not because they followed the crowd.

There are folks presently taking the guitar to a new level past most of those iconic guitar players.
I don't think there has been a drop off in Steel guitar players.
There just hasen't heen anyone come along who could take it to a new level past Buddy Emmons like they have with guitar.

Here is just one example (you gotta watch the whole thing) of one of the guys who have obviously taken it to a new level past Chet and Les etc.
But we're still waiting for that guy who is going to step up on PSG
click here

Larry. I think there are just a lot of new players gigging in local bands.
Jeff Newman always said to get into a band and get on the bandstand as soon as you can.
I think that's all it is.

What exactly are the shortcuts you think people are taking?

Here's the progression:
Novice, Beginner, Advanced Beginner, Intermediate, Advanced Intermediate, Advanced, Expert, Extreme.

That's just the way it is. Players of all levels are gigging. Many have their own sound in their head and that's what they are working on.
They don't want to do what's already been done, so no need to learn any Emmons/Green/Moony/etc.
That would be a counterproductive effort.
Robert Randolph broke the mold.
We need more mold breakers.

Robert Randolph broke the mold? Those black gospel folks were playing that kind of music when Randy was in diapers.
There is a whole nother world out there that’s just plain been ignored by the majority of the mainstream Steel Guitar community.
I like Robert Randolph but don’t anoint him mold breaker until you venture over into that other world.

Stuart,
Robert is the most successful Steel player to ever front thier own band.
Festivals, Stadiums, TV, multiple CD realeases, International influence, etc...
Pedal Steel front and center.
Not a Side Man.
...That mold.

Rick and Pete, my good friends, I am so sorry that you are taken back by my comments. This was the result of a conversation I have with another person and thought I would throw it out there and see who would care to play.

To a degree I stand by my comments, BUT to a greater degree I agree with you both in every way. Many of the things you bring up are exactly what I have been saying for years. (Let Robert R be who he is, he is promoting steel guitar like no one else.)

This post was meant to promote conversation, perspective, observation etc. Nothing is in stone here, and I totally agree with everything you said.

Thanks for the thoughts, do not take it personal, I am not. See you both at the next steel jam, if not before.

PS: Rick I to am very guilty of not paying attention to detail so I include myself in this. If Doug J or Paul or Tommy were a "ten" on skill and technique I would be about a "-10". But even so I can not stop helping others, even with my limited knowledge and skill, or promoting pedal steel, it is what we should do. Danny Shields expects it of us.


Larry Behm

Larry Behm wrote:Talking to a few other old musicians it seems like the skill level and attention to detail is dropping off the longer time goes on.

Thoughts please.

Larry Behm

In my "Humble opinion" I don't believe this is actually happening everywhere. It seems to me that if we look at the best musicians/players of today, they are actually much better as a group than those of the past. I am actually a very nostalgic sort of person, I love the old instruments and music from the past as much is anyone. But I do not believe that in general the skill level of all players and musicians has deteriorated over the years. I think that musically things have changed a lot, but not necessarily a lower skill level. Just a thought.

Thanks Bob for your input, see my post above yours.

Larry Behm

If RR has been more successful in your view is not the point.
This video will explain where I’m coming from in RRs own words
Click here

Talking to a few other old musicians it seems like the skill level and attention to detail is dropping off the longer time goes on.

"Talking to a few other old musicians" is part of what to address, I think. I would surely agree that there are far fewer people out there who would know, at the age of 30? 35? 45? - many of Buddy Emmons' intros or solos, or know 11 million ways to "pad" through a 1-4-5 type progression; on the other hand, you've got this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad7IXj4CKOw

It's a younger steeler, playing a Steve Vai composition. And when it was first posted here on the forum, there were the predictable

"If I knew how to play like that - I wouldn't! HAHAHAHA, ha, ha."

- answers galore. But I'd be willing to bet some of the "I wouldn't" guys were perfectly happy to learn Joaquin Murphy licks that he had taken off of horn players, expressed admiration for Bobbe Seymour's Merle-Travis-derived "thumb-style" steel, etc.

Now, I'm not a big Steve Vai fan, and I'd bet my list of "wanna-learns" would be closer to the standards here than to some 20-year-old kid steeler's list, but - they may be working on stuff we hadn't even dreamed of. "They" being the ones who are too busy working on stuff to post here. Just this year I was astonished to find out about these guys:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NOhPBMexiqc

"Should" Beethoven's 6th be played on... steel guitar? He could have been learning what I wanted him to instead! Kids today! Of the few younger steelers who have expressed some goals here, they almost universally think (as do I) that they need to learn rock songs in their entirety - signature six-string licks included, played on steel - to be able to say they know them. And tho one universal universal among them is they're writing music to be played on steel guitar by them in their bands - this seems to be the gigantic, Cyclopean blind spot contained within the "classic" intro, pad and solo-only approach. Every which way you go inside the "Different Styles" thread you find - original music, as written on steel guitar.

http://bb.steelguitarforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=208507

It's a great question, I just gotta say, "who gets to pick the yardstick?"

Stuart Legg wrote:Robert Randolph broke the mold? Those black gospel folks were playing that kind of music when Randy was in diapers.
There is a whole nother world out there that’s just plain been ignored by the majority of the mainstream Steel Guitar community.
I like Robert Randolph but don’t anoint him mold breaker until you venture over into that other world.

Well...maybe he didn't break the mold, but I'm pretty sure nobody would argue that he didn't "break the ice" in pop culture. Multiple appearances as the feature performer on both Leno and Letterman? Unless you live under a rock, or don't have electricity, that's a pretty big deal my friend. No other pedal steeler has even come close to that kind of exposure!

Larry Behm wrote:

Thanks for the thoughts, do not take it personal, I am not. See you both at the next steel jam, if not before.

Larry Behm

Larry, no problem.
See you at the steel guitar jam.

Rick

The cost of entry to this party is not cheap. If I had the cash in the late 70s when I started, I would be a different and better player today. As it has turned out, I just bought my first D10 last week at age 58!

A couple other things that I see all the time:
1.) modern country music has the simplest pedal steel licks ever (if any at all) and

2.) my band mates in two different groups I play steel in all think I'm the best thing since sliced bread. I am grateful for their support, but I so want them all to hear what a real good steel player sounds like.

I think overall the skill level is getting much better. There is much more information to improve one's skill available to steel players now. Listen to the studio steel players back in 1959 to early 1960. Most of their playing was fairly simple. Listen to the players now and the weaker ones as myself sound better than the best did back then. The availability of learning material and listening to accomplished steel players make most everyone want to improve. It is also relative to the amount of time you spend behind the guitar. To play your best you should work you guitar as easily as you drive your car. You should do everything without having to think it over beforehand.

I'm not bashing the pioneers of pedal steel. The instrument was fairly new back then and they were in a learning curve. All of them improved greatly as time went on.

I'm graduating up to "Suck" after 20 years of hacking away on this lovely beast... I think like always, We have great players not so great players, That goes for every single artform in this world.