The Steel Guitar Forum

My opinions herewith:

There are a lot of problems with electronics repairs these days. They mainly stem from using cheap, mass-building strategies to keep the price down, but which create basically unserviceable devices. Many manufacturers have moved from a "stock service parts and repair under warranty" to a "don't stock service parts and replace under warranty" policy. The problem is that once the warranty is over, the consumer is SOL. I'm sure the operations research analysts have gone over it with a fine toothed comb and found that it's cheaper to simply replace the defectives during warranty than stock parts and repair.

So I think it is profoundly unfair to single out Peavey, which is to my knowledge one of the few manufacturers to continue with a "stock service parts and repair" approach. In fact, I think their service policy is the best I have ever seen - I can still get parts for my 30+ year old LTD 400 amp, and anything newer than that also, and none of this relates to your title about manufacturers who refuse to honor warranties.

On this:

The Nashville 112, (I have owned two), knobs sheer of or shafts break, plastic vent on the top breaks, reverb tank not even screwed in, grill cloth on crooked, modifications no longer possible with chips, reverb units feed back, just to name a few.

1. We all have known about the top vent and pot shafts breaking since day 1. They obviously had a reason to do things this way (I presume cooling, a la Vox AC15/30, and being able to read the knob descriptors from above), but I agree a different approach would be better. But if I could find a better amp for this application at anywhere near the price-point, I would. 'Nuff said.
2. Reverb tank issues, crooked grill cloth - well, all the grills I've seen were just fine, and tank reverbs are getting to be a problem, period. Accutronics was bought and moved to Korea - just try to find one of the old American-made units. I assume the problem is that most manufacturers are moving to DSP chips as that technology just gets cheaper and cheaper. Personally, I prefer spring reverb, so I live with the inconveniences.
3. This leaves the only 'serviceability' issue - moving to non-socketed ICs. Of course, I completely agree that socketing the ICs makes servicing and chip mods much easier, and wish they would move back. I assume it's cost-cutting move, probably made because of the insane amount of price-point pressure caused by virtually everyone building things just as cheaply as they can these days - plus perhaps a little consideration of eliminating the slight thermal-contact noise source at the socket. But I will say that most repair people I know have been amazed how long Peavey hung in there with socketed ICs when most of the 'big guys' went the other way a long time ago.

I think this 'serviceability' horse left the barn a long time ago. Except for Peavey, the only amps I buy are hand-wired amps, usually old but occasionally newer. In terms of gig-worthy 'loud and clean' amps, except for a nice old silverface Twin Reverbs, which for some reason seem to still pop up for stupid low money, you're not going to find them for $500-600 like you can most Peavey amps.

The other thing is that new amps for pedal steel are not exactly a 'necessity' - there are lots of old ones in good shape - LTD/Session 400, NV 400/1000/112 as well as Webbs, Evans, and of course the big, old Fenders - that do the job just fine for reasonable $. Between Peavey and several noted repair people that interact with this forum who are able and willing to do their bit to keep them 'on the road' for a very reasonable cost, I have to ask, "What's the problem?"

Reply to Dave Mudgett,

Re: the heading of my post, yes it began with only mgs who do not honor warranty--could have gone back and changed it to "Mfgs and their warranties" to satisfy the picky people. However, the info is the same if anyone wants to glean the purpose of the post, which is "a word to the wise is sufficient."
I hate to see fellow musicians getting ripped off.

Re: the Peavey thing. Yes, I have owned many Peaveys throughout the years. Old Peavey great; newer Peavey deficient. Yes, I agree that nothing built by human hands, or human designed machines, is or will be 100% perfect. But most of the time, a new product should offer a reasonable amount of service irregardless of the price.

Lets go generic now so b0b won't have to use his button; any company to offer a product that the mfg knows up-front has defects I believe is a shody way of doing business. The cost of the warranty work has all been computed into the overall cost of the product, but in the meantime, the mfg gets an impeccable reputation for standing behind their product. This is called back-end marketing. They get a good reputation for their warranty work and corner the market because few mfgs honor theirs. Brilliant marketing ploy. I prefer not to have the interruption of service, or having to have a spare while the other one is "in the shop" which is why I prefer a product with a better service record up-front rather than taking it on the back-end. It is everyone's own choice.

Here is the flip side if anyone is interested:
Positive experience with product, mfg, store, etc: Carter Steels, Evans Amps, Webb Amps, Risson Amps, Buffalo Bros Guitars, Goodrich pedals, BJS bars, Bose PA, G'L products, Steelers Choice, D2F Covers.

b0b, close this out.

My NV 112 is just a few years old, and it performs very well gig after gig. I know many with the same experience. The knob/vent thing was a design decision, which surely can't be a secret to steel players remotely keeping up with this forum.

... any company to offer a product that the mfg knows up-front has defects I believe is a shody [sic] way of doing business.

As you said above, every manufacturer produces products with defects. No manufacturer achieves perfection, not even the most careful hand-building producers. But you seem to go yet further in arguing that mass-produced goods are somehow a travesty.

I also don't think I'm being "picky" when I object to terms like "musicians being ripped off", "Mfgs refuse to honor their warranty", "shoddy way of doing busines", or other similar phrases applied to mass producers like Peavey. I don't think it's reasonable to compare this kind of stuff to excellent, hand-built, but very pricey high-end equipment. Everybody has their own value system, and not everybody needs or wants high-end, hand-built gear.

FWIW - for the most part, I have always used either vintage or vintage-style hand-built amps over the years. But what do I wind up using a LOT for pedal steel? You guessed it, my NV 112. I really think it would be more useful to constructively suggest to Peavey that they revert a few of their recent changes, rather than slam them. I thought I made it clear that I agree with some of the things you said, but disagree with the sweeping and, in certain aspects (again IMO), inaccurate nature of the criticism.

b0b, close this out.

I see you want to slam the door on other comments after stating your piece. I think it would be good to leave this discussion open after making such controversial claims.

All my opinions, as usual.

We still didn't get any answers about Fender or Carvin.

I think the worst offender is American Motors Corp.

I've been waiting 40+ years for a replacement window-crank to my '66 Marlin. I've religiously called them twice a week and nobody ever answers the phone

Welll the only probem I had with a Peavey was a speaker that separated after 24 years of being front loaded without a ring. The AuthRep tried a couple baskets before I got PV to admit that the slot size had changed. Mike Brown eventually took care of me.

Fender Hot Rod Deluxes a few yrs ago were JUNK. You'd play loud enough to be heard and the tubes would disintegrate. I took it to a FenderAuthRep, and he said "we couldn't get it to do it"... I junked it after it blew a couple more sets of tubes. NOW the HRDs have cages and heat sinks. Maybe they work better.

I have a couple cheapo Fender Frontmen.. a 45r and a 212r. They're cheap enough that if I blow the mini sized guts from overpowering them, I'll just buy new guts and swap them out.

I got my favorite amp a Blues Jr and had a kid go all the way through it and put ceramic tube sockets in it, an old preamp tube and a Weber Blue Dog.

PV has always been the most reliable for me and the best service. (I own a Ses500, a Nvl400, Nvl 112 and a couple small practive amps.) If you can get used to the way they sound. I finally gave up after thirty years.The reverbs suck, the speakers sound too brassy inside of 10 feet. and the logo's are stupid.

Peavey: When it's not about "The Sound".. -EJL-

EJL

Tony said:

I've been waiting 40+ years for a replacement window-crank to my '66 Marlin. I've religiously called them twice a week and nobody ever answers the phone

Tony, I suggest you load up your car and drive down there. The nerve of them not answering the phone.

We still didn't get any answers about Fender or Carvin.

I don't suspect you will. Seems like a flame-bait post with no real facts to back it up.

Just ran across these posts...Peavey, buying anything else is like cheating on your wife...but, bought a Fender American made Strat prob 20 yrs ago, lifetime warranty, now the fret board finish is cracking...never out in the cold, always well taken care of...took it back to the dealer, seems lifetime warranty doesn't cover that and a few other things...unlike my Martin HD-28, which was 25 yrs old and neck was out...Martin took it, made it brand new and thanked me for being a good customer...all under their lifetime warranty...would I buy another Fender, sure, but peeling fret board shouldn't happen...

CF Martin&Co. is the best! I've owned four including a HD 28(awesome),D-28-12 ,D21 & D15 and still own three. They sent me a bunch of free strings (SP)and polishing rag for being a good customer (42yrs.)when I registered my new 12 string.
MUSICIANS FRIEND is the worst! After being a loyal customer and spending over $20K with them they would not honor their "meet or beat" advertised price.Basically they advertise that they have will match or beat any advertised price! When I was shopping for my 12 string Martin their price $2399.00 and Maury's was $1866.00. I thought I'd give MF the business as I was a long time customer and thought I'd give them the chance to match it but they wouldn't! I had trouble communicating with them-they didn't want to even respond and they kept referring me to different salespeople and told me that the guitar in question had to be "used" or a second(which it wasn't) When I did get to talk with management it was the same story, poor response time, numerous emails to get them to respond. I finally gave up and ordered it from Maury's and will do so again in the future!
Also Musiciansfriend barraged me with emails daily later to try and get me to order something but would not and still won't send me a catalog after numerous requests! I now use AMS or Music123 if I need anything. MF is not what they claim to be. Management there didn't care how much I'd spent in the past or how long I'd been a customer(the manager I talked with was a jerk!) Oh well they are not the only game in town so speak. Maurys was easy to deal with and prompt and courteous, no tax and no shipping costs to my door, just like Mf!They won't get my business anymore-oh well that is their loss.

I had a PV Renown amp a few years back. It worfked great for about six months. Then it popped the power supply. Took it back to the "Authorized" PV repair dealer. Three weeks...fixed...two hours out at another gig...popped again. Same story all over..three weeks.....about two weeks this time....popped. I was never charged for anything, but I determined that a feller sure needs equipment that is reliable and not sitting in a repaid shop. I traded it off the last time it popped. I told the store it was a POS and they said they were going to send it to Peavy. I never did hear anymore about it. On the other hand, I have an old Bandit amp that I used for years. It was/is a workhorse. Needs work now with scratchy pots etc. I also had a older Fender Hot Rod that was a real pc of junk. It had board mounted tubes and it seems the heat would cause problems with the traces. They fixed it the first time, then they refused to fix it for me saying that it "abused" because it was not played in an area that allowed proper air flow. Amp was gone the next day. I also sold my Fender Steel King at that time. No more Fender amps. I owned three PV steel amps, two 112's and a 1000. Never a problem, but they are all gone now...sold to locals who use them all the time. I now play thru one of Ken Fox's amps and so far ....great great great. I purchased a Black Star for small jobs, but so far, it has not left the house. I have also "heard" that some major equipment suppliers have quit stocking the Fender Steel amp due to quality/warranty issues....good luck with whatever you purchase. It really is rare to get GOOD customer service these days on anything, or talk to someone who uses English as their first language when you call.

LARRY COLE wrote:We still didn't get any answers about Fender or Carvin.

Well as far as Fender goes I have a Custom Vibrolux that I bought in September of last year in the shop right now because it breaks up when the volume is on 3. I called about it the other day and was told the hold-up was whether or not Fender wanted to stand behind their warranty. What is up whith that? I traded a 65 Twin re-issue because it kept breaking down. I guess I should have known better.

Peavey has excellent customer service. Fender not only has quality problems but service problems also. What a shame. Good luck on that.

they refused to fix it for me saying that it "abused" because it was not played in an area that allowed proper air flow.

At which point the bad me would have jumped in with something in the area of "well you better just follow me around and BLOW MY GODDAM AMP anytime it starts warming up".... I didn't mind building the little computer fans into my SKB rack box to keep the Mighty SWR SM500 from cooking the bacon, since I did build it into a sealed case... but if they're telling you it's your fault if you play in warm places because a $5 fan would break Fender's bank, that's a bit much. Roll over Leo Fender, and tell Orville Gibson the news.

One more thumbs down for Fender Service and no beef with Peavey.

I test drove a Fender '65 RI Twin Reverb a while back. Having owned a vintage '65 Twin since 1977 (I think), I said "thanks, but no thanks". Other than outward appearance, it is absolutely nothing like the real thing. They are totally different amps.

My son is determined to buy a new Fender Blues Jr. I've tried to steer him toward a few older point to point hand wired Fender amps that were just a couple hundred $ more than a new Blues Jr., but he's made up his mind. I sure hope he doesn't regret it.

But what does the old man know about amps and such, anyway? Now maybe if it were an amp for COUNTRY music, he might listen.

I've got some older Peavey amps that are outstanding, too. I haven't played through any of their newer amps. I've heard guys playing through NV112s that sounded great. But I don't think one would sound great with me playing through it though.

Steven, I have the same problem with my Form Expedition that you have with your Peavey.
When I back into something with the Ford, the tail light breaks.
Damn Ford.

interesting thread...

I only buy used now and have only bought used for the PAST DECADE. New is over rated anyway...

The last new guitar I bought was a Gibson 335 back in 85, now here is an axe I probably took out of the house perhaps 6 times in the 10 years I owned it. Here is what happened. At several fret positions on the fretboard , the white binding cracked. This after maybe 1 or 2 years...I contacted Gibson and they told me it was my fault, I stored the instrument wrong. I kindly asked them why it was happening and what was happening, they didn't actually give me an answer, the just stuck with it's my fault.

My opinion, the frets were just ever so slightly wide by a fraction, and with the guitar "setting" in over time , no way was the metal gonna give, the plastic binding cracked. Basically a brand new ES335 , not every fret, maybe 5 or 6 locations, of which I asked Gibson, why only 5 or 6...? Again no actual answer..They offered to re-dress and re bind the fretboard for a whopping $750..right...I just paid $1200...

They also could not explain why my Les Paul's and my other 335 didn't exhibit this same issue...I guess of my 8 or 9 guitars at the time, only ONE was stored wrong.

I suspect that had they looked at the guitar , removed the fretboard binding and measured the fret lengths they would have found the problem in a NY minute.

Ended up having a local Luthier fix it then I sold it a few years later, and I never bought another new Gibson ever again and never will.

Problem solved.

Sorry to hear of the warranty issues..

t

Rich Hlaves wrote:I administer warranty for a very recognizable brand in So. Cal., Arizona and southern Nevada. I have to tell you that most warranty repairs are not warranty, they are "good will". Equipment is abused, neglected and not maintained then customers want repairs covered for free because the equipment is still within the warranty period, sometimes beyond it. This is not the same as a defect in material or workmanship that would be considered "warrantable failures".

I've done warranty repairs for every major guitar manufacturer, including Fender. Most of the instruments that come in for "warranty" repairs are really the above-mentioned "warrantable failures". Discretion is left to the repair-person and/or his manufacturer contact. Consequently, not every "warranty" customer can be satisfied.

Also, having done warranty work for many years, I've noticed that manufacturer's will occassionally restrict their warranty policies. It's probably the result of someone in the corporation cracking the whip in order to save money. It's not done overtly, with any stated change in their warranty coverage. It's done subtly on a case-by-case basis, or might include an entire class of repair that the manufacturer has identified as a problem. The pool of "warrantable failures" shrinks slightly, and a few more customers are left out to dry (or cry).

I think one of the reasons, that these changes can be so painful, is that manufacturers are usually very generous with their warranty programs. I've done a lot of repairs on "warrantable failures" that I would have liked to pass on, but they pay well! They cover a lot of things that are clearly a result of neglect or operator error. They can't always afford to make everyone happy, so we get new threads on the forum and manufacturers continue to do what they have to do to turn a profit.

Ahhh... such is the reason that the lawyers will always have clients......

I've had to learn to eat some losses in order to keep my sanity.