The Steel Guitar Forum

Keith, you crack me up !!! And, yes you are right. That particular fiddler and several others I have played with sound like they are practicing all the way through the song at a constant irritating volume. You need to introduce them to the Hilton Pedal and show them exactly when and how to use it.

Jerry Roller wrote:Mike, you are my friend and you are right. I do not mean to lump all "Tele" players into one but it seems Keith has a problem with a guitar player and I can sympathize with him. The main problem is that ego gets in the way. I have been the band leader at the Little O' Oprey for 15 years and the last time I told a guitar player he was playing rhythm too loud, he said he would play the following week to give us time to find another guitar player then he was quitting. That is a shame. I look at a band as if it were a team. If everyone is a team player they should be open to improving the team. The toughest thing is to get a lead player to understand whether he be keyboard player, guitar player etc is that the rhythm needs to be carried by the drums, bass and rhythm guitar if there is one in the band. There should not be a drop off while he is playing a solo then he bust in and cover up the next solo with a loud rhythm. I'm sure any bandwise pro player who is working knows this but it is a real problem in the weekend warrior scene. This problem is not just with 6 string players, but any lead instrument that alters the rhythm sound when he is playing a solo or fills and when he is not. I have also heard my share of steel players who play too loud in my opinion but that is a completely different problem.
Jerry

Jerry, after all these years, don't you know the guy with the loudest amp wins ? ;- Seriously, that is why I play lead guitar with a volume pedal so I can turn down easily to give the lead to another player. I agree, people that play rhythm as loud as they do lead do a disservice to the band. JMO

How a guitarist works in a band depends on the style of music and the preferences of the band. It is not always in bad form to play rhythm guitar when not soloing. In many bands and many styles of music - for example, jazz, blues, rock and roll, bluegrass, country music, and others - guitar is frequently an essential part of the rhythm section. A good guitar player is often expected to both comp and play solos.

The volume level of rhythmic comping depends on the situation. Sometimes - especially in driving music such as a lot of blues, rock and roll, and more driving country music - e.g., Waylon or Hank Jr. - it may be appropriate for the rhythm guitar to be quite driving. In other contexts, it should be much more subtle. That is an issue of taste and good musical judgement - rhythmic playing should not clash with other things going on, I don't care what instrument it is. I agree with Jim Bob on use of the volume pedal with guitar - it is very convenient. But a lot of guitarists do fine using their volume control or softening their right-hand attack.

I agree that there are situations when it's reasonable for the guitar player to just stop playing. But again - this is an issue of taste and good musical judgement. If a band wants to treat guitar like a horn - shut up except for specific fills and solos - it should be agreed to up-front since it's not the typical role for a guitar, IMO. The ability to work well as both a rhythm and lead instrument is one of its great strengths. Same with keys.

I know many here may consider this heresy, but I honestly think an overplaying steel guitar player can be even more obtrusive than an overplaying guitarist because of the very high presence-level of the steel, as an instrument.

As far as firing all the guitarists and replacing them with fiddles - I guess Bob Wills mighta' disagreed with ya'. You gotta problem with Eldon Shamblin? Rhythm guitar at its finest. Or how about Doug Green with the Time Jumpers churnin' out those cool Freddie Green chords with that big old Stromberg archtop? He and Andy Reiss work perfectly together - it's the player, not the instrument.

I appreciate that some of you may well have a problem with your guitarist(s) or keyboardist(s). If you don't need them, by all means dump 'em or find people who will do what you want. But you may need to get agreement on what is expected of them up-front.

My opinions, of course.

Sometime it's real hard to tell another player he/she is playing to loud or to much ! There is one way to tell if a player is a pro or semi pro and thats by how he/she works with the other band members ! Any pro/semi pro knows when it's his/her time to play . Thats what makes them a pro ! '' Problem solved ''.

Gary Preston wrote:

Any pro/semi pro knows when it's his/her time to play . Thats what makes them a pro ! '' Problem solved ''.

Gary, On behalf of myself and all other berated and abused Tele players, I want to thank you for cutting through all of the BS and summing up the situation profoundly and succinctly.

Ahh... so near and yet so far away

Guys, it is not the fault of the instrument whatever it is, it is the fault of the player. Either he is band wise and knows how to make everyone sound better or he doesn't or don't care. I play steel with my son playing six string on Saturday nights at the Little O' Oprey and he is very bandwise and we never have a problem such as this thread is about. On Sunday nights I play with "One Way Flight" and the guitar player is Tommy Kemp, brother of Wayne Kemp (who wrote Love Bug, I'll Leave This World Loving You, Cadillac One Part At A Time, and many other big hits). I mentored my son on being bandwise and Tommy was mentored by his brother Wayne and Tommy is a true joy to play with. He is right there when he needs to be and never walks on anyone. The steel player has just as important an obligation to also play when he is supposed to and then get out of the way. All you have to do is take time to listen to what the band sounds like and how you fit into the overall sound. If you are hurting it you need to change. A recording of a performance can be very telling.
Jerry

There is one way to tell if a player is a pro or semi pro and thats by how he/she works with the other band members ! Any pro/semi pro knows when it's his/her time to play .

I will agree that a "pro" musician has good ears and good taste - although what constitutes the latter is quite arbitrary and determined by the musical context.

But with all due respect, the idea that a "pro" musician always "just knows" exactly what they should do and never needs direction is abject nonsense, IMHO. Otherwise, there would be no need for band leaders or conductors.

A very important distinction is that pros can and will take appropriate direction. Many times, what and how something should be played is up to an artist's or producer's conception, and a "pro" musician must be able to make that work.

A very important distinction of a pro band is that they can and will communicate and work with each other, if needed, for the benefit of the band and its music. One doesn't get off so easy to just throw one's hands up and say "It's not so easy to tell someone there's a problem, therefore I won't ever do it." - that's a copout, IMO. Sure, be nice, but sometimes constructive feedback is critical to get what you want in a "pro" production.

If someone's playing too much or too loud, I think it's the bandleader or producer's job to at least tell them what the problem is. Of course, if you want, you can just fire them - provided you have a better alternative.

Hey - if it's so simple, why do so many people here perpetually complain about this issue?

Guys, it is not the fault of the instrument whatever it is, it is the fault of the player. ... A recording of a performance can be very telling.

Bingo, Jerry - the tape don't lie.

My opinions still, of course.

Why do 6 string guitar players think they have to carry the rhythum of the band by playing chords? Why don't they just quit playing until it comes their turn?

Maybe because there's no such thing as "your turn"?

In a band context 6-string guitars are usually the MAIN rhythm/chord instrument, unless there's a keyboard player.

Try playing a Chuck Berry song without the 6-string...waiting until it's "his turn" means playing the entire song...just like MOST songs.

You also can't...repeat - *CAN'T* - tell how loud you are in comparison to another instrument from the stage. It's the sound in the "house" that matters...and if you crank things up because you want to hear yourself better, you may very well be TOO loud to the audience. It takes someone out in the crowd...which is why I've laways tried to have a "roadie", hanger-in, band-buddy...someone...with a decent ear to listen to a sound check (especially when there's no soundman) to check the balance...and *do what he says*.

Back to one important point, though - I agree that when there are overall volume problems...mainly everybody turning up to compete with one another...it's almost always due to a drummer with poor control. I've played with drummers who could use a double-bass set and 5$ sticks, play full-bore in a bedroom practice and everyone could hear and even talk. OTOH, I've heard guys play with brushes that were too loud.

A good drummer has a "feel" that's rare - a light touch, tremendous dynamics, and incredible control. Most just whack the crap out of their drums and that's when the "volume control slugfest" starts.

It's also funny that if you go to the Tele page, many of the country players complain about steel players who are too loud. Same issue - find someone competent who can listen to the house sound and abide by what they say. It stops a lot of arguments.

Try playing a Chuck Berry song without the 6-string...waiting until it's "his turn" means playing the entire song...just like MOST songs.

But Jim - this is the REAL country pedal steel guitar forum, isn't it? (Just a light joke, folks - don't sharpen up your knives).

A lot of this "rules" stuff is determined by the style of music being played. A lot of problems like this are caused by people playing out of their genre - open jam sessions are the worst. I sometimes have to slap around rock guitar players stomping all over a traditional country song. Conversely, I sometimes run into people who play only traditional country music and have no clue what to do on a rock and roll or blues number. In this type of situation, the kind thing is to help them out - if they're willing to listen.

I couldn't find ONE Tele player on the Tele page complaining about loud steel players...

I am relatively new to the Steel Guitar Forum. Is there a Tele page and if so, how do I get there? We Tele players are getting pretty well pummeled in this neck of the woods.

Seriously, I would like to know - Thanks

you could just cut their hands off. I have found that to be very effective.

The Telecaster Discussion forum is at http://www.tdpri.com/

I also haven't noticed much steel guitar bashing over there. There are people who say they don't like steel, but it seems pretty restrained, as compared to the level of guitar-pummeling here. In fact, a lot of Tele players are heavily steel-influenced. I take most of this as friendly banter - lots of us play guitar here, including me.

you could just cut their hands off. I have found that to be very effective.

See what I mean?

My earlier comment that steel has potential to be overpowering was based on the fact that I have sometimes heard steel players play too much or too loud, and I'm sure I've been guilty at times. Jeff Newman spent his first Steel Guitarist Magazine article talking about just that issue.

The guitar player I play with, Chuck Demars, is a great guitarist.....plays with lots of finesse...and is not loud, either. We play good together, and compliment each other. I think I'm pretty fortunate to have such a pro to play with. HAL

I was only kidding.
I play a 335.

Dave, thank you for the information on the Tele forum.

FYI - I am taking all this with a grain of salt and a good bit of humor. After several decades in the music business I have developed a pretty thick skin and a good bit of discression as to when to take things seriously.

I play a Tele sometimes, a G&L Legacy sometimes and I have a 335 in my closet. I don't play the 335 that often because it is not obnoxious enough to bug steel players

I think it all depends on the musicianship level of the guitar player. IF he is a "coffee house" type acoustic player with little to no experience playing with other instruments, you can expect him to jingle jangle every intro... and spank the guitar to do drum type rhythm things that he hears in his head.
It gets in the way of the bass, the drums, and every other instrument in the band. It's annoying.
I love playing with a solid rhythm player who keeps it is control and doesn't do the spanking thing.
The gal who is playing for Asleep at The Wheel is an example, More like big band rhythm guitar.
I love Tele players, and Strat players that leave room for everyones parts.

I couldn't find ONE Tele player on the Tele page complaining about loud steel players...

And a week ago you wouldn't have found steel players complaining about loud Tele players. But you would have a year or two ago. Also complaints about loud BASS players...or drummers.

These threads go in cycles. In fact, almost every subject that comes up has already been discussed a number of times. It's to bad more folks don't use the "search" function (although on both this and the Tele board that only covers a limited length of time due to board crashes or changes - but it still helps stop the repetition).

I used the"Search"function on the Tele page...and I didn't find ONE Tele player complaining about loud steel players.

,,,and you didn't read my post Steve. They lost years of threads.

Looks like the trees are in the way of the forest view again.

I'm a Tele player and sometimes I play STEEL too loud !

there, we now have a reference to go by !

tp

IMHO steel players play too quietly. I havent been doing this very long but Ive never heard a steeler who was too loud.

On a somewhat releated note...I just joined the telecaster forum yesterday. After years of shredding on my strat I acquired a cheapo mexi-tele and am trying to learn to twang it up. Its been humbling. You guys made that stuff look too easy.

Maybe only ONE Tele player complained about loud steel players...I've told you guys a million times-don't exaggerate!

Pete Burak wrote:Anybody got any non-intrusive ways to disable other bandmembers amps???
[I'm serious]
Anything along the line of a radar jammer, maybe?... so i can sit at my steel and control the volume of other players amps without them knowing what's going on???

I usually just stick a phillips-head in the input jacks and make like I'm trying to start one of those old cars where you had to stand in front and crank start 'em!
It's hard to do this though, and not get caught by someone.

~pb

I used to play in a 2 guitar band that mixed our mains from the stage. Through out the night th other guitar player would walk over to the mixer and raise his fader up to be louder than the rest of the band. The more he drank the louder he got.
We fixed this by installing a set screw on his channel
fader. He wasn't real happy but we were.

Joe

I have a friend thats a steel player, he says he prefers not to have a lead guitar player in the group. He plays country, bluegrass, rock. Go figure on that line of thought.
Also a fiddler who doesn't want a lead guitar in the group.
I have played with both too loud and not loud enough to balance the stage sound and this is with all the instruments in the band.
I find most complaints come from players that think they are the band and without them they would be nothing.
Curtis