80% failure rate????

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 27 Nov 2007 3:52 am

Actually the guys using the term "passion" are on the right track.. Without the "burn to learn", success may never come..

Of course there are a tiny number of lucky guys that can pick up pretty much any musical instrument and sound good in no time, without much real passion involved ,just another arrow in thier musical quiver,but thats not how most of us are wired..

I tried my hand at banjo, fiddle and keys, and was an abyssmal failure at each... didn't care either... therein lie the problem... bob

Dean Salisbury · Post by **Dean Salisbury** » 27 Nov 2007 6:13 am

Well for the past 4-5 years, and being Esteban has made buying good but inexpensive guitars packages. I have bought and have given away over 2 dozen Esteban guitars to kids and a few to adults. All of the kids that I have given a guitar package to, have continued to play and learn to my surprise. Passion or just the love of music, don't know which, but all of them have surpassed my ability to play. I only asked 1 thing from each and that is if they quit or give up to give me back the package they were given so I could give it to someone else. In keeping close contact with the kids that I have given them a guitar over the past 4-5 years I have only had 1 kid who gave me back the package I gave them.

May be I just picked the right kids, but most went on and are taking guitar lessons, others are continuing by buying Estebans instructional videos, and others are doing very well just by learning on their own.

But all of them have told me that when they all saw the infomercials of Esteban playing and his style, of playing that hooked them. Then once they got down on song and all of them said the same thing, once they were able to play House of the Rising Sun, that did it for all of them.

At the time I had the extra bucks from time to time and it was a good way I thought to kinda give back to the community. Now that I have been put out on a medically disability and now just got social security, doubt if I will have the bucks to continue giving these packages away. But at least I know that there are over 30 kids that I've helped get into music and just maybe helped them to get off the streets and become constructive kids. I do know that all of them really have a passion now for music and so far I'm above the 80-20 rate!

I just started on a 6 string non-pedal about I guess 3 weeks ago. At 60 I am finding it a pretty hard learning experience, but in several ways it appears to be easier then learning a standard 6 string. At least I do have some music back ground and that helps me a lot, but there is a lot to this instrument that is confusing. I can understand why so many people quit and go on to something else.

At some point I know the light will turn on and I will get what I don't get or understand now. Just a question of time!

Dean from S.I. NY

Larry Strawn · Post by **Larry Strawn** » 27 Nov 2007 6:44 am

My steel playing probably falls with in the 80% bracket, but I'm just to stubborn to give up and quit, so I'm still out there about 2 week-ends a month making a fool of myself and having the time of my life with this crazy instrument!

so far no one has fired me, but I've still got my fingers crossed!

Larry

Mark Treepaz · Post by **Mark Treepaz** » 27 Nov 2007 6:46 am

After playing trumpet and some bass guitar for 34+ years, I decided that with my being bored with playing trumpet, I'd dive in and try playing steel guitar - an instrument that always intrigued me. I first started by playing lap steel to see if I could get the hang of that type of instrument. I was OK on lap steel so I decide to try PSG. I never thought in a million years that I would be able to play pedal steel. However, for some reason, my PSG is developing nicely. Go figure(?)

Yet, although I tried, I could never get the hang of playing 6 string guitar.

Bill Dobkins · Post by **Bill Dobkins** » 27 Nov 2007 7:02 am

[quote="Billy Carr"]Many, many players of other instruments try there hand at PSG. To be really good, in my opinion only, I think a person must be totally dedicated to PSG. It takes more than learning a few tabs and signature licks. It's an obession that lasts a lifetime if a player is a steelman. quote]

This is me, I've played six string about 50 years,professional for 40. I became board with it. Now that I took up Steel I could play it 24/7 so I guess I'm obessed with it, but I am so frustrated that there is no where to play Steel in my area and no-one to teach within 100 miles. I'm self taught, learning about everything from CDs.Sometime I want to give up because I know there is so much more to learn..

James R. Cole · Post by **James R. Cole** » 27 Nov 2007 7:04 am

After about forty years of guitar the steel has taken over. I play by ear, can't read notes and I have trouble with tabulature. I'm not very good on the steel but I enjoy playing it. For myself if my lack of ability exceded my love of the instrument I MIGHT would give up but I don't see that happening. I think playing the steel is a lot like being married. You get out of it what you are willing to put into it.

Dean Salisbury · Post by **Dean Salisbury** » 27 Nov 2007 7:20 am

You say you play by ear. Give us beginners a how you go about playing a song by ear! This would I'm sure be very helpful to all!

I do the same thing on a regular guitar, but don't know enough of the steel yet to really be able to do it. Besides it takes me forever to tab a song because of my memory after having a stroke. but I continue just to plunder away finding 1 note at a time.

My other problem is, I like playing the original way that the song was recorded as I just jam along with the originals as there is no one around my area to really jam with. But atleast I have fun and thats what it is all about.

Another problem that I have is most of the tabs that I see are not tabbed out in the original way and some are not even close. So I toss a lot of them out, keeping only the ones that are close that will help me in finding the original notes.

It will of course be very interesting knowing how you go about playing by ear. Im sure this will help many!

To help others I will try to write out the way I do it and start a new topic "Playing by Ear" I would hope that everyone would give their way of playing by ear!

Dean from S.I. NY

Walter Killam · Post by **Walter Killam** » 27 Nov 2007 7:22 am

I got hooked when I realized that all the really cool guitar on a Desert Rose Band album was Jay Dee on Pedal Steel. I developed a commitment to learning the steel, & have been working towards it ever since. No question of giving up, some times I walk away for a few weeks, but I'm always drawn back. I think the 80/20 formula is highly subjective, because of the high start up cost, the few players that I have known are highly motivated to learn, & committed to learning throughout their lives.

I think the drop out rate has a lot to do with how learners view the instrument, solo, or ensemble. I seems to me that many instructors approach their students with lessons designed for standalone solo music. (this is not a critiscism, I have no idea how to impart knowledge of this instrument to others, just an observation) Personally, I am more interested in the ensemble aspect of the instrument, & learning to play as part of the band. As such, I get more from playing with others than I do sitting in front of the TV rewinding the last cool hot lick over & over again.

So, are you playing your part, or are you playing the song? I think playing the song leads to greater satisfaction & keeps the newer player motivated to keep on going. I suspect the people (80%?) that give up learning may not have taken an approach that enhances early success.

Calvin Walley · Post by **Calvin Walley** » 27 Nov 2007 7:53 am

not knowing anything about music when i started playing the steel, i think that I over complicated the steel for a long time . i'm not saying that the steel is not a complex instrument, it is
but it was like i was trying to make simple things much harder than they really are.
and i think many non musicans do the same thing and that leads to failure

James R. Cole · Post by **James R. Cole** » 27 Nov 2007 7:53 am

Dean, sorry to hear you had a stroke. We'll keep you in prayer and wish you the best. I've had a few TIA's (mini strokes) and have trouble with memory loss so I understand what it's like. As for playing by ear I just try to play what I hear. When I was about seven years old my older sister was taking piano lessons and the teacher gave me two lessons free just to see if I had any ability to play. After a year of lessons she realized that all I was doing was having her play the song and I would pick out the notes by how it sounded.When I was learning to play the guitar I would play along with a record until I got it right or at least close. I do the same with the steel. I play at home or at church so I can improvise on what I'm playing. I just have fun with it. No set techniqe just lots of practice.

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 27 Nov 2007 9:48 am

It hurts my fingers!

Jack Francis · Post by **Jack Francis** » 27 Nov 2007 9:54 am

My steel playing has been held back by my 6 string playing...the bands that I've played with have kept me busy learning new songs and the time I've played in country bands it was always easier to grab the "Tele" than embarrass myself on the steel on something that I was unfamiliar with.

Wellll...that's as good and excuse as I can find for the way that I play! $:\$

Don Brown, Sr. · Post by **Don Brown, Sr.** » 27 Nov 2007 2:27 pm

Wow! In it's simplist form of playing by ear: First, doesn't everyone who plays? That is if they've been playing for any length of time, I'd think that most everyone does? Correct me if I'm totally wrong.

Anyway, the first thing I'd say, is you have to be able to hear the chord changes in a song that's being played, that's "independant" of whatever key the music is being played in.

I think many people learning how to play, feel as if there are so many chords, that it's going to be impossible for them to ever learn. So to them, the one's who can play, must have some form or photographic memory or something. "Not at all!"

But if that's the way they look at music, I can see why it would appear to be that way. first, let's take music down to where it's not some big mystery and make it a whole lot easier to see what music is all about.

Think of each key (regardless whether it's written in the key of C, or the key of Bb (B Flat), or any other Major key, as being simply a higher or lower pitch in sound. And that's it! Because that's all it is.

One singer's voice might have him/her singing Your Cheating Heart, in the key of C, while another singer may need it played in any one of the other Major keys. But the point here is, that it's played the same way regardless of what key it's in.

Don't let the different Major keys hold you back. A different major key, is simply higher or lower in pitch. And of all the instruments, the Pedal Steel is by far the easiest to play in any key. As well as the sweetest sounding (in my opion) musical device ever invented..

Listen for chord changes, and when you can notice them, you're well on your way to being able to play by ear. You don't have to know what key they're in, it's the cordal changes you want to train yourself to hear.

While backing up a singer, if you've never heard the song before, you can pretty much know what's coming next by listening to the voice as well.

Remember! Any major Key is simply a higher or lower pitch in tone. Nothing more. So don't let that confuse you.

Put a record on that you know, and listen for the chord changes. It was easy for us old folks, there weren't too many to listen to. Jimmy Rogers, Hank and a few others. Ah! Sat nights, down here in the sticks, listening to WWVA in Wheeling WV, WCKY in Cincinnati One Ohio. "Remember! Back in those days, a decent radio signal (AM only) was very hard to pick up on the East Coast fading in and out. "Darn the good old day!" <grin>

PS: Don't tell anyone! I didn't get into real music theory. I never cared why it was I was playing the sounds I was getting. The only thing I knew, I was gonna make um as sweet sounding as what I felt they could be.

Play with your heart, what you're feeling inside, and you'll get all the music out of one that's possible. You'll also find you'll never play the same song, the same way twice. I've always had to play the way I was feeling a song at that particular time.

Gosh, I guess I should properly introduce myself soon. I'm not new here, just new at posting. <grin>

Hope I was able to make some sense out of the question as to what playing by ear means. Bottom line playing by ear is: "If you hear a song, you can pretty much play it the first time around! Naturally, that's after first learning your instrument.

It's the same as hearing a song and singing or humming to it. Only thing is, your using the instrument instead of your voice.

(Only my personal opinion, and possibly means something quite different to others here.)

b0b · Post by **b0b** » 27 Nov 2007 3:01 pm

Jack Francis wrote:My steel playing has been held back by my 6 string playing...the bands that I've played with have kept me busy learning new songs and the time I've played in country bands it was always easier to grab the "Tele" than embarrass myself on the steel on something that I was unfamiliar with.

That's funny, Jack, because for me it's always been the other way around. It's far easier to sit and stare at the steel, looking like I'm coolly waiting for the right time to play, than to embarrass myself by trying to play guitar on a song that I don't know.

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 27 Nov 2007 3:18 pm

After playing guitar for 40+ years I took up steel, way harder for me to play with any type of confidence. I hate the drudgery of practice unless it's to learn a song to play out. Then I can obsess until I get it.Ive been at it for 4 yrs now, and have been close to giving it up several times. It's all about playing out for me on steel, no gigs, no desire. 6 string is different, it is my first love. I can sit for hrs on acoustic guitar, because I love the sound, even if it's a simple song. The steel by itself does not hit me as hard, although I do like it a lot.80% sounds right to me. JP

Fred Glave · Post by **Fred Glave** » 27 Nov 2007 3:45 pm

99% of all the people I meet can't play steel guitar. 98% of them don't know what the steel guitar is. I guess my question is "How are these statistics gathered and calculated"? Is there some researcher out there conducting a study?

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 27 Nov 2007 3:57 pm

Fred, I'm sure its just a figure that someone somewhere pulled out of the air,,, thats where I found it floating around.. You weren't expecting an accurate and unbiased analysis in this den of iniquity were you???... bob

Bill Duve · Post by **Bill Duve** » 27 Nov 2007 4:27 pm

I think after about 6 months of messing around and another 6 of being helped by a pro I do what I would call fair, not good by any means but im happy to hear actual sounds made by the pros coming out of this thing I have worked so hard and spent so much money on, Most of those I relate to have played 40 years so where does failure start, I do not play well but im playing and have no intention of quitting so im not a failure (yet)

By the way, thats the wrong steel in the Avatar but I finally figured out how to do it..Its a BMI, just the wrong one

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 27 Nov 2007 5:54 pm

I dont buy 80% failure rate (whatever failure means in this case...I guess it means giving up? quitting?).

I'd see alot more used psgs if that was the case i would think.

Maybe 80% never get "good" or even competant?
its all so subjective..success/failure...good/bad

we struggle with these questions in the fine arts as well...I see people spending their whole lives making paintings i think are horrible, they never get shows or win awards or do anything but keep churning out this horrible horrible stuff no one seems to like or want. who am I to say the've "failed" tho at whatever it was they are tryin to do?

gah..philospophy bad, buck owens good. lets leave it at that.

Al Collinsworth · Post by **Al Collinsworth** » 27 Nov 2007 6:04 pm

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 27 Nov 2007 6:43 pm

To me, learning steel kinda reminds me of one of those old movies where someone has a plane crash or something. They struggle up the mountain, sometimes leaving others behind, where they hope there might be help or to get a better fix on their location. They may try several times but finally, exhausted, they reach the summit.
Many people start out on steel but fail to reach that plateau. After many tries, they give up, possibly because of frustration or maybe lack of desire. If they would have just stuck with it a little longer, they would have reached a higher level where many things would start to become easy for them.
In other words, I think the steel learning curve for most people starts out very steep. Then it levels out a bit and the instrument starts to make sense and become much easier.

Of course, if you want to progress to that even higher level(pick your a$$ off level), there's that mountain staring you in the face again.

Ken

Bo Legg · Post by **Bo Legg** » 27 Nov 2007 7:12 pm

I was playing Lead guitar and they got the bright idea that I should learn the steel so I could switch off and they wouldn't have to add another picker. I told them no problem I'll learn that baby in a week. I got a butt kicking and 6 mos later I had developed every bad habit you ever could.
I was playing the Wagon Wheel in a Clayton N.M. and French Burke was there for 1 nite and I watched the kid that was playing pedal Steel for him and he could blow most guitar players away picking fast licks.
I saw and heard instantly what my problem was and went home and started completely over and admitted that I needed a lot of input from someone who knew how to play Steel.
I THINK MOST GUITAR PLAYERS FAIL TO LEARN PEDAL STEEL BECAUSE THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT OTHER THAN HAVING STRINGS THE PEDAL STEEL HAS VERY LITTLE IN COMMON WITH A GUITAR.

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 28 Nov 2007 1:35 am

ok I'll play..

I see this totally different than some here. I see that the 6 string and the Pedal Steel are very common, not physically , but Musically.

All the notes are the same, all of the theory is exactly the same, on the E9th neck the intervals are exactly the same.

I came over from the Telecaster planet back in the early 70's and found the merge to be quite easy getting started, not the physicals, but where the music was located in basic terms. Learning the TONES the Pedal Steel offered and comparing them to what I could play or knew on the 6 string made for a pretty smooth early transition.

Here's the thing that I see..

The Pedal Steel does require some basic understanding of theory and relationships of positions. We build the relationships with Peds and levers...On the 6 string you have to actually PLAY the phrases with your little fingers and if you don't know them you are out of luck.

I suspect there are more "BLIND" guitar players who have no clue what they are playing and that is a main reason they may fail at playing Pedal Steel. They are not playing by ear, they are playing by memory and when confronted with actually applying what they have learned, they can't.

Go ahead, ask the kid in GC to play a few major 7ths or major 9ths...ask them to play some substitute chords to the AC DC songs...( I like Angus by the way)

thats the problem, not the Instrument..

tp

ps, you wanna get rid of some C6th stress ? Look at the lower neck as an E tuning and use the 4th fret as your home position. There, now you have two necks with identical theory and intervals and all you did was look at it differently.

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 28 Nov 2007 6:05 am

Bought a new Shobud D-10 in '72. Tried for 3 weeks, gave up, and put it in the closet for a year. Tried again a year later, and came to the conclusion that I should have driven down Brady St throwing twenties out the window to the hippies instead of buyin' that guitar. Friend said he knew a teacher. First lesson he barred a 6-string C chord up on the 4th fret. Told me that's how a steel is tuned, and this pedal adds this note, that pedal adds these notes. Lightbulbs were goin' off in my head so fast I could hardly speak. Started practicing 8 hours a day, at least! After 3 lessons, he got me a gig.

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 28 Nov 2007 6:24 am

I THINK MOST GUITAR PLAYERS FAIL TO LEARN PEDAL STEEL BECAUSE THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT OTHER THAN HAVING STRINGS THE PEDAL STEEL HAS VERY LITTLE IN COMMON WITH A GUITAR.

A pedal steel has a lot in common with a 6 string guitar. Most 6-stringers can see this with a little help.

http://www.steelguitar.com/resource/vid ... tring.html

The Steel Guitar Forum

80% failure rate????

Giving away guitars

80%?

Re: PSG

question for James R. Cole

solo or ensemble?

I hate playing guitar