Would this be at all fun?

Gary Stevenson · Post by **Gary Stevenson** » 14 Aug 2008 7:00 pm

What tuning would Don Helms have used? C6 or E9 maybe

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 14 Aug 2008 8:03 pm

Don Helms E6 tuning:

G#
E
C#
B
G#
E
C# (D back in the #50s)
A (B back in the '50s)

He pretty much always played on the high six strings.

CS

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 13 Feb 2009 1:43 am

I know it's pedal BUT just listen to the variations.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQ9y5JawONA

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 13 Feb 2009 9:12 am

Beautiful playing by David Hartley, as always.

This version brings to mind the "extra measure" issue. Why do some players insert that extra bar after the first line in every verse? Hank didn't play it that way on his original recording. I know that some songs go through changes (no pun) as the years go by, new versions, variations, etc., and I've worked with singers who put the extra pause in this song, but it drives me nuts! It may be a variation, but I'm calling it "incorrect"

Don Kona Woods · Post by **Don Kona Woods** » 13 Feb 2009 9:58 am

Doug laments,

I've worked with singers who put the extra pause in this song, but it drives me nuts! It may be a variation, but I'm calling it "incorrect"

Why does it drive Doug nuts?
I believe it is because the continuity of the song is affected or lost. The mind needs closure and this extra interval does not allow for it. IMHO

I am with Doug on this.

Aloha,

Don

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 13 Feb 2009 12:24 pm

I am also NOT a fan of the long pause. Another song where "bar bands" like to stretch it out is in between the verses of "Folsom Prison Blues". There should only be two barres in between "Folsom" verses, not four!

CS

Stephan Miller · Post by **Stephan Miller** » 13 Feb 2009 2:39 pm

Doug, I think it all got started because the "extra measure" was always there already after the third line (but only the third line) of the verse.

Maybe some people decided it'd be easier to remember if it was there after every line? $:\$

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 13 Feb 2009 3:30 pm

Yes, there's an extra bar after the third line...

I just wish that musicians would not "rewrite" the classics. When I say 'rewrite', I'm not referring to substitute chords... that's a lot of fun and it can sound really good, in my opinion. But adding parts and adding beats that are not in the original song really bugs me.

"I'm So Lonesome I Could Cry" originally had 8 bars of I (chord), and over the years musicians have spruced it up with I, Imaj7, I6, etc. That kind of chord motion enhances the song in my opinion. But when I hear the extra pause in Cold Cold Heart it sounds like the player made a mistake! I'm reminded of the singer with poor timing who comes in late with the next line!

[tab]
COLD COLD HEART 4 beats each chord

D D D A
A A A D
D D D G G
A A A D
[/tab]

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 13 Feb 2009 3:43 pm

Doug, you are correct sir!
I bet Hank added that measure so he could take a nice deep breath to belt out the hook line.

I'm reminded of the singer with poor timing who comes in late with the next line!

Hey, I used to work with that guy!
In all fairness, he would make up for it by sometimes dropping a measure and coming in early.
We just followed him, because he owned he bar . .

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 13 Feb 2009 3:49 pm

I bet Hank added that measure so he could take a nice deep breath to belt out the hook line.

Yes, or maybe to belt down another shot of Jack Daniels!

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 13 Feb 2009 6:20 pm

I'm with you Doug on the issue of Due Diligence. It's either right or exhibits a "Close enough" attitude that doesn't really belong in the pro world of music.

In David's case he was gentlemanly leaving space for the over exuberant Floyd Cramer wannabe..IMHO

BTW in Hanks version it's an 18 bar sequence whereas on the Don Helms video on YouTube, Don plays it as 17 bars, so I made it an even 16 and completely missed out the extra bar of 4 halfway through, and the extra bar of 1 at the end of each cycle.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 14 Feb 2009 11:12 am

...sounds a lot different to the duet that we recorded a year ago.

George Piburn · Post by **George Piburn** » 16 Feb 2009 7:50 am

edited

Mike Harris · Post by **Mike Harris** » 16 Feb 2009 8:47 am

When I was in college, there was an older man who frequented all the live-music clubs. Invariably, he would get up to sing the same two blues standards no matter if the band was rock, reggae, or whatever. Anyway, his sense of form was off the charts, even for a 12-bar blues. If you still had three bars left on your solo he might come back in, starting a new verse on or before the turnaround.

Eventually he put together a band of his own. A friend of mine who became his guitarist went over to "Pop's" house to study the material they were to play. He said that the old man's records had skips and that's why he sometimes came back in singing in the wrong place.

True story.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 16 Feb 2009 10:12 am

I don't mind odd timing in the original recording. My problem is with players who Change the original timing of the song, add beats, chop off sections, etc. Here's a radical example: I played a few gigs with a guy many years ago who played "Together Again" in 3/4 time. He insisted that the song was (or should have been) in 3/4. Ever try playing Tom Brumley's beautiful solo for that tune... in 3/4? I didn't play with that guy too long. Wrong timing is almost as bad as wrong chords, in my opinion. But that's a whole other topic...

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 16 Feb 2009 10:31 am

Doug Beaumier wrote:...Wrong timing is almost as bad as wrong chords, in my opinion. But that's a whole other topic...

Well, changing 4/4 to 3/4 is rather a drastic example, but I've heard many versions of Cold Cold Heart sung be various artists who don't use Hank's key or his phrasing. Last year, when I was recording the tune at Basil's place, he had a backing ready made-up with Hank's phrasing, and I found myself continually being thrown off and coming in at the wrong place, yet I've had the Hank Williams recording since I was a kid and thought I knew the song inside-out.

I'm going to be working on a version of this today to put in this thread, and I'm hesitant about not upsetting anyone. Maybe I should listen to Hank's version while I'm playing.

George Piburn · Post by **George Piburn** » 16 Feb 2009 12:02 pm

edited

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 16 Feb 2009 3:09 pm

I made a start, but it's so cold today in my sub-basement den that I could hardly feel my fingers. Let's hope it warms up during the week. Yes, it does get cold in California...

Roger Palmer · Post by **Roger Palmer** » 16 Feb 2009 3:24 pm

You could always rename it cold cold fingers

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 16 Feb 2009 8:50 pm

I'm going to be working on a version of this today to put in this thread

We're looking forward to hearing it Alan! I had two versions of CCH posted here last year, but I took them down a while ago. I thought this topic died last year, but it keeps coming back!

Todd Weger · Post by **Todd Weger** » 17 Feb 2009 5:37 am

Not to thread drift too far, but I used to play with some old country guys (as opposed to guys from "the old country") who would routinely play songs pretty much differently every time we did them. They just had this way of coming in with the verse or chorus where they wanted. As annoying as that is when you're playing lead breaks, and trying to figure out what they're doing, there was a rustic charm about it that I liked. Yeah, there -- I said it.

How about some of the odd (to mainlanders, anyway) 21 bar Hawaiian songs like Pua Kealoha (21 bars counting in 2/4, which makes more sense to the form to my ears). It's funny, but when I first heard that song, I couldn't figure out how they knew when to change, but now, it just feels natural and great.

Funny thing, this moo-ZEEEEK.

Doug Beaumier · Post by **Doug Beaumier** » 17 Feb 2009 6:40 am

They just had this way of coming in with the verse or chorus where they wanted. As annoying as that is when you're playing lead breaks...

Yes, like when you play a big "walk-up" to the chorus (I to IV)... as the band plays another verse instead! So it sounds like You made a mistake!

One time about 25 years ago I did a fill-in gig with a band I had never met before... I don't remember their names or even the club we were at, but I clearly remember that they had rearranged every song to "extend it for the dancers". Many bands do that by adding a extra chorus at the end, but these guys would play like, three verses in a row, and then maybe two choruses. It was maddening because didn't know where the songs were going, even though they were all country standards and hits of the day that I had played hundreds of times with other bands. It's hard to play backup when the band changes the arrangement of standard song.
That was a l-o-n-g night.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 7 Jan 2010 4:39 pm

http://www.7161.com/streamer.cfm?filena ... k_id=18961

Okay, for better or worse, pulled out of the archives. You'll remember that I restored a Fender Stringmaster for Basil two years ago. This was recorded in Basil's studio.

Alan Brookes playing that Fender Stringmaster.
Basil Henriques playing a Fender D8 Pedal Steel.

It's obvious which is which. Basil plays the introduction, a section in the middle, and the last few bars at the end. I play the verses.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 7 Jan 2010 5:02 pm

Alan, E-mail me the mp3 at basilhenriques@hotmail.com and I'll host it for you.. The streaming version isn't playing successfully..

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 7 Jan 2010 5:41 pm

basilh wrote:Alan, E-mail me the mp3 at basilhenriques@hotmail.com and I'll host it for you.. The streaming version isn't playing successfully..

Thanks Basil. I imagine you've already got a copy of the recording on your computer. My problem was that it was recorded as an .m4a file, so when I downloaded it to the file server it didn't work. Since then I've downloaded a conversion programme from the internet and converted the file to an .mp3. I've changed the shortcut on the original posting, so hopefully it should work now.

http://www.7161.com/streamer.cfm?filena ... k_id=18961

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