How did you learn?

[A. J. Schobert]

What helped you learn the Pedal Steel more, playing scales or actual songs?

To me scales are boring, yes they are important to learn the instrument, I learn them but the songs is where it is!!

sho-bud
carter d10
PS2

[Billy Wilson]

I feel that in order to learn this instrument I have to do it all. Playing scales, learning chordsand their inversions, picking licks off of recordings, having folks show me stuff, learning from fake books, making up my own licks or tunes, tabs, totally faking it, playing gigs and jam sessions, band rehersals, reading the Steel Guitar Forum and just plain lod thinking about it. All essential and equally important.

[Gary Shepherd]

What Billy said.

[Jack Stoner]

Everything has helped me. I started on lap steel then went to 6 string rhythm and later lead guitar and also bass so that all helped when I went to pedal steel.

As previously mentioned, learning chords and the inversions up and down the neck is a must. Scales are great but if you know the chords you have all the notes in the scale.

Playing in a band and being "forced" to pick is probably worth more than sitting at home "practicing".

[Michael Douchette]

As soon as I finish the learning process, I'll get back with you...

[Paul King]

I agree with Michael on this one. I feel like I have been to the school of hard knocks at times and still learning. This forum has been a great tool for steel players. I learned so much from just listening over and over and finally figuring out what was being done. Tabulture is also a great way of learning licks.

[Dave Diehl]

Never under-estimate the power of scales. I am still bearing scars from Jeff Newman beating me over the head about scales. When I started I thought "why bother with scales". Now, I know why. Knowing scales will bail you out often when playing a song you're not familar with and someone looks to you as "take the break".

[Don Sulesky]

Playing rhythm and lead guitar for 20 years before I took up the steel helped me.
Also being able to read music has been a big help because I can relate the notes I see in print to several places I can play them on the steel which leads me to say learn your scales.
Also knowing where to find the same chord several places on the steel neck is important because the notes are there with different harmonies and inversions.
Don

[Ernie Pollock]

Played bass guitar itn rock bands in the 60's, lead guitar in country bands in the early 70's, got hooked on steel, Jeff Newman helped a bunch, but sheer determination did the most for me. I used to practice 5 & 6 hours a day back then. I love to play the melody & do backup.

Ernie Pollock
http://www.hereintown.net/~shobud75/stock.htm

[Jim Sliff]

I think all of us are in a constant learning mode, even the top players.

For me, playing songs is infinitely more valuable than playing scales, on any instrument. I spent about 40 years on 6-string before more-or-less switching to steel, and could not play scales to save my life. Yet I had regular gigs and sporadic sessions for most of that time period. I learned phrases, chord positions to use as a "base" for soloing, etc. I had almost no formal musical training, and the few classes or lessons I took that taught scales taught them as just scales, with no practical application. The lack of any "real world" context caused me to immediately forget them.

I'm sure scales have value to many players, just not to me; and I found no handicap NOT knowing them. I certainly never played a gig where someone said "OK, let's play a C major scale!". I DID play gigs where people said "let's play "(ill in a popular song name).

There's also nothing more boring tto me than to hear a player play a solo made up of constant, even, reptitive scale sections. Yet I hear it fairly often.

[Bari Smith]

I'm with Michael!!!!Still Learning after 30 some odd years...some odder than others!

[Larry Bell]

A player who can listen to a melody and play it off the top of his/her head is getting there. Another important skill is to be able to write out a number chart without your guitar. Of course, learning technique and learning songs can be a valuable activity but learning to express yourself through music is what it's all about.

It's a journey. There's more than one route to the destination. Once you have that 'ear to guitar' connection you will be able to sit in with a band and play songs you've never heard before. What key? How fast?

There are a few 'tricks' or 'secrets' but the most important thing to do is to get out and play with other musicians. There are musicians of all skill levels -- some meet in garages, others in bars, and still others in church. Choose your venue. But JUST DO IT.

Think about what you're playing. Learn some theory if that's your thing. Scales are fine, but I've known masterful players who couldn't tell you what scale tones or chords they are playing but they can mix it up with the best of 'em.

Learning from tab has its advantages but using tab and courses as the only source of info is very limiting. Without it you're dead. With it you're no more than a human music box, always looking for someone else to show you how to play. That's ok for a year or two but it isn't getting on the way to actually playing your own style, from your own heart and mind.

[Don Sulesky]

"Learning from tab has its advantages but using tab and courses as the only source of info is very limiting. Without it you're dead. With it you're no more than a human music box, always looking for someone else to show you how to play. That's ok for a year or two but it isn't getting on the way to actually playing your own style, from your own heart and mind."

Larry this is what I have been striving to get into my students heads, but it just doen't seem to sink in. Some have become puppets and can only play what is on the tab. Those that do get it are having the most fun from the steel.
Don[/i]

[Earnest Bovine]

I'm sure scales have value to many players, just not to me; and I found no handicap NOT knowing them.

So what do you do when the melody you are playing contains a scale? Do you lay out, or do you just play wrong notes?

[Tony Prior]

AJ, I learned enough chords and small licks on the 6 string to become REAL DANGEROUS, then learned songs..

Then after about 20 years of that I went backwards to see if I could figure out what the heck I was doing.

I'm still working on the part...

Same thing on the Steel..learned enough to become dangerous then started working my my backwards.

My take is that an early player needs to do both, play some songs VERY SOON and learn some minimal theory and fretboard knowledge to go along with the songs. IF you play songs and don't know how or why you are playing them you will never progress and at the same time if all you do is theory and scales and all that stuff you'll run away from the Instrument, get a job at the Post Office and then you know what comes next ..

Balance....

tp

[Ray Montee]

Tell me, plez.......
On a pedal steel..what's the difference of playing a scale......in the key of C or F or G? It's the same strings; same bar positioning; just movement of the left arm or pedals. Learning the mechanics is okay but to lead others into beleiving that they have to know the name of each note of every string in each and every position is overwhelming.
I believe wanna-be players/students, should concentrate more on ONE SET of BASICS. I used Winnie Winston's book. Not to memorize his songs or his arrangements but RATHER, what finger grips and/or pedal movements were required to get a particular sound for a particular chord change.
When I first learned pedal steel, we NEVER changed string pitch with pedals WHILE PLAYING. THAT, came after Bud Issac's industry shaking "Slowly".
So learning the Emmons approach was exploring uncharted new land for me.
Using Winnie's fine book, listening to everything I could on record, like Ray Price and his steel man, and trying to merge what I was learning to play with what I was hearing........was an IMPORTANT STEP.
The MOST IMPORTANT thing a student can do, as I see it, to get those basics down; develop the EAR to hear what is going on; then, be able to sit down and play a song all the way thro' applying those new techniques. By songs, I do not mean HIGHWAY 40 BLUES or ROCKY MOUNTAIN whatever it is.......... Take a simple, simple tune and play it to death. In a short time, your EAR will enable you to start applying these newly learned skills. If you jump from one song or artist to another, you're going to miss the repetitious sounds you're needing to hear.
THERE is no more fun.......than to be in a strange band and be able to do a presentable job on any song they come up with. NO TAB! NO TAPES! It's a wonderful experience. USE YOUR IMAGINATION! YOU HAVE TO DEVELOP THAT! Start at one, and march thro' the basic steps. It will come to you if you don't get in too big of a hurry.

[A. J. Schobert]

Thanks tp, you always have good points.

I think tab can easly become a crutch.

I would learn scales up and down the fretboard, but not till I played songs did I learn. So if someone is starting out, I would suggest them to spend 30% time on scales and 70% of time on songs. I for one like to see and hear some progress so that is why I think it is important to play the song.

Ray I agree learning the "notes" is overwhellming and truthfully you really don't need it to play, the guitar already knows the notes (didn't jeff newman say that once?) However a little of theory is good, but applying it to a song is even better.

[Dave Mudgett]

I still have lots and lots to learn in all facets of music, so these are just some random opinions.

I think it's useful to have a basic understanding of scales and how to play them, and then armed with that knowledge, choose not play them in most playing situations. I don't think most songs call on a musician to play whole scales in sequence. It's understanding how notes fit in a song that matters, to me. The concept of scales is just one of several musical organizing principles, again to me.

I also think it's useful to have at least a basic understanding of music reading and music theory - and then armed with that knowledge, be able to chuck it all out and just play what you feel fits off the top of your head.

For me - sometimes, it's important to play what someone else tells me to. But other times, it's more important to play what I think fits. Two different skills, both useful. I'm working on it.

[richard burton]

I learn tunes by listening to them, and then working out the easiest way to play them on E9.

I wouldn't know a scale if I tripped over one.

[Aaron Harms]

You've all got plenty more years on this than I do...but I can't help but think that an even balance of scales/theory and song/ear knowledge is best. OF course it depends on where you're playing, as Dave says, some people will tell you what to play, and sometimes you have to suss that out for yourself. I'm awful at the first one, and decent, according to some, at the other.

For me, it's been really helpful to know positions--where can I find all the inversions/permutations of "G" up and down the neck? While this isn't necessarily what I would call "scales", it's close. I tend to ignore scales, and instead think in terms of "which notes are not the worst ones" in a given situation, but really, if you resolve them, and play the whole (bad ) phrase a second time, they think you did it on purpose.....or so I've been told.--"creating musical tension, it's been termed by a certain brother of mine"

Just my 2 pence.

A

[Michael Douchette]

FWIW... Pete Drake literally had no clue how to play a scale.

[Jim Kennedy]

It's all important. I am new to steel but have played guitar for almost 40 years. When I went back to really learn scales and how they relate to chords the guitar really opened up and my playing improved dramatically. I would suggest the Jeff Newman up from the top course. It teaches basic scales, then shows how to use the scales to make phrases or"licks," and then applies these to a song. Kind of an all in one thing, and very effective.

[Cal Freeman]

I've never played a scale in my life...I learned by playing the songs, if you learn to play the songs you will already know the scales, so why waste the time. As a result I have been fortunate to play and record with with many of the 'greats' in our industry

[Ron Randall]

I haven't yet.

For me, I think in intervals. Once I know where they are, I can pick something out. One of the best learning exercises I know, is picking the notes to a song up and down the bar, using pedals/knees as needed.
Then turn around and play same song up and down a string using bar and pedals knees.
Don' memorize it. Just do it.

[Larry Bell]

Yep -- if you want to play that song the same way every time there's little point in learning scales or theory or anything beyond the scope of those numbers on a page of tab.

However, if you want to compose a solo or find some cool substitute chords or passing chords, knowing a little bit about how scales are built from the chromatic scale (all possible notes) and how chords are constructed from scales can make that task much easier and more logical. Nobody said anything about practicing only scales but learning how a major scale is laid out using pedals and bar movement can help you understand the instrument.

It's great to understand WHY GMaj chords are found at the 3rd, 6th, and 10th frets on E9 and how to use those positions to find melodies and licks used in the songs we play. Otherwise it's just trial and error and you keep reinventing the same wheel. Putting what you learn into a framework (called music theory) makes it easier to learn new material and make sense of that you already know.

Some folks tend to be a bit macho about learning how music works but it can come in really handy in a bunch of different ways.

Just my opinion.