Ideal C6 copedent

Bob Merritt · Post by **Bob Merritt** » 30 Jun 2007 9:19 am

If you could add just 2 levers to the standard C6, what would they be?

This has been touched on in the Forum from many perspectives in the past but I could find NO consensus. Plus it would be nice to take a fresh look. By reaching a consensus or at least showing a trend, hopefully this will help many.

As for my own help, could really use your suggestions. Getting my Emmons rebuilt by Tommy Cass and this would be a good time to make any changes.

Assumptions / base line:
A. Standard 5 pedals and one lever
Including P4. Some don’t think its worth much but some respected players do.
One knee lever lowering string 3, C, to B
B. Avoid using 2 feet for pedals. (Will never be a Curly Chalker).

C. This will be the pedal / lever/ tuning/ arrangement for “keeps”.

D. Lean heavily to string 1 as G. (not D)
Reason is perefer nice FAT chords ANY day, over single note stuff. Such as chords w/ the TOP note being: Maj 9 no pedals (string 9 root); Dominant 11 th w/ P5; Dominant 9'th w/ P6; b7 w/ P8. Plus want to learn some non pedal playing. Not decided on this for sure and open to suggestions,

Could sure use your input. Thanks in advance.

Billy Wilson · Post by **Billy Wilson** » 30 Jun 2007 9:58 am

I gotta have C's up to C# and A's up to Bb and down to Ab. Was Chalker a two feet on the pedals king of guy?

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 30 Jun 2007 10:54 am

My pedal 4 lowers the both E's to Eb. RKR raise A's to Bb. Play around with different combinations of these. Keep the G on top as you say.

Practice using both feet, also.

Thanx,
Jim

admin · Post by **b0b** » 30 Jun 2007 5:26 pm

Of course the high C to B is necessary.

If your first string is D, you pretty much gotta have the C to C# lever. It gives you the "5th on top" A6/A7 chords.

A lot of guys swear by the A to Bb lever. I have it but I don't use it much. I could do without it.

I have a middle E to F that I use a lot in folk music, like the "B" pedal on E9th. I also raise high D to Eb on it. So to answer your question, I would add both C's to C# and my "F7" lever. I'm probably wrong, but at my age I stick with whatever I can understand.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 30 Jun 2007 8:02 pm

Billy Wilson-Curly Chalker had a very well educated left foot. He could bouce all over with it and didn't need to use both feet much, with his copedant. That is the way I saw it.
I keep my left foot on P5 and P6 most of the time, I put my P7 on a knee lever, this I find very convenient for me as I can keep my right foot on the volume most of the time. mOst of us keep the D on top now as Bobby Lee says you can get that high G up three frets with the pull to C#, goes good with P8....al.

:)

Jim Bates · Post by **Jim Bates** » 1 Jul 2007 5:03 am

Another comment: I just heard a great Alvino Ray cut on a local big band oldies radio station. Alvino used the pedals to make those full chords that you are after.
(recently I heard him on one of the old Gene Autry Melody Ranch recordings in a small group)

The Forum probably has his tunings and pedal changes in their library somewhere. Tranpose his tunings to the root C and see what you get.

Thanx,
Jim

Jay Jessup · Post by **Jay Jessup** » 1 Jul 2007 5:39 am

If you have as one of your assumptions--no two footing--then you almost have to use a solution with the 7'th pedal on a knee lever like Al recommended. Two footing is not all that hard if you put a little time into so you might want to try that before radically changing your guitar.
Personally I have tried all sorts of things through the years and usually wind up back with a very standard setup, they have stood the test of time for a reason. My current C6 knee set up has both the high C and A strings going each direction 1/2 step, and like Bob the A to Bb is the least used of those.

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 1 Jul 2007 6:38 am

If you take for granted a standard C6th setup is pedals 5 through 8, then one knee lever that lowers the 3rd string a half tone, to me the most valuable change would be to add another knee that lowers the A's to Ab.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 1 Jul 2007 8:52 am

The standard C6 setup is pretty well tested and as Randy says, the C to B knee lever is very important and can be expanded more so if you have the D on the first string.

And the A to Ab, especially with P5 is a beautiful Aug, for one,and is one that Curly used by using P5,say 10fret, using the 4th string as the top melody note,then A to Ab with it one fret higher, then slide back one fret and let off A to Ab knee(Usually on on Vertical with me). I know Randy knows this, being the musician and fine steel player he is.
The A to Bb knee is not used much as said, you can always get that chord on P5 and down two frets, with the D on top. Although it gets does get a nice Aug7 with P5. And a minor 7th with P6.
I do use 2 pulls that Reece Anderson used to use on his tuning. That is pulling the 5th G a whole tone lower and the 3rd E a whole tone lower on separate levers. This gets a full F6 Sub-Dominant, let up and a FMaj7. Also separately the 3rd to D gives a 7th chord with P5 and the 5th to F gives a 7th with P6.Very handy in playing melody solos.

Paul Franklin on his E9 does this dropping the B a hole tone and the G# a whole tone, gives a SubDominant A6.He can move 4 notes on one string without moving his Bar!
Well , we can't have everything, but we can try...al.

:)

admin · Post by **b0b** » 1 Jul 2007 10:25 am

Randy Beavers wrote:If you take for granted a standard C6th setup is pedals 5 through 8, then one knee lever that lowers the 3rd string a half tone, to me the most valuable change would be to add another knee that lowers the A's to Ab.

I have that change on my guitar but I rarely use it. What are some common uses for it?

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 1 Jul 2007 10:53 am

Based on this thread, I just added the 3rd string C to C#, replacing a change I rarely used. It works well with the 8th, 7th, 6th and 4th pedals on my guitar.

It also works well on its own to enable more chromatic runs with the top D string. Just move up 3 frets from the root position, engage the C to C# knee, and a whole pocket of chromatic notes opens up. Some of the same notes are available 7 frets up with pedal 6 with the A to A# knee, but they don't sound as clear, aren't chromatic and you can't slide into them from the root position.

WOW!!! Try this: Engage the C to C# change, press pedal 5 and move up 3 frets. On strings 2,3,4,5, and 6 you get the original strings 1,2,3,4 and 5 of the root position. Now you have your 1st string G back again.

Of course a similar grouping exists with strings 3,4,5 and 6, 5 frets up from the root position, with pedal 7 engaged. I use that a lot also to get some of the lost high G string sounds back.

Greg

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 1 Jul 2007 2:42 pm

Bob, lower the A's along with the 6th pedal, (raise 2 and lower 6). 4th fret its a C major 7 on strings 8 through 2. Same strings but add the 9th string and its a A minor 9th.

For a nice walk up and down play strings 3 through 6 on the 4th fret with that lever and the 6th pedal. Slide up to the 5th fret and let off everything. Continue to the 7th fret, then to the 9th and hit the pedal and lever again. Then reverse it.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 1 Jul 2007 3:39 pm

Randy-Thanks, Good intresting post.
When I play "Take the A Train" by the Duke. I do use the A to Ab lever with pedal 5, usable up and down the fretboad.

I like BE's standard Knee setup. Just one pull on each lever . A To Ab, A to Bb, C to C# and C to B . pretty complet, but with 6 knee levers, I would put G to F on one and E to D on the other, P7 can still be on the floor where it is faster, with the right foot on occasion.
I am just getting lazy and don't play fast much anymore so put my P7 on a knee, I like P8 on the left of P5, ala Jeff Newman,so it is handy right next to P5 for small movement . I also raise my 3rd string C to C# on that pedal., it is pretty handy there, and I dont have to waste a knee lever. but I know lose a little, but gain more. Like Reece said to me once, he liked to sit in the saddle with just 5 knees and 5 pedals , worked pretty good for him....al.

:)

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 1 Jul 2007 11:54 pm

i've got A to Ab on P4 & LKL G to F on string 5
add P6 to those & there's a nice full minor 7
i find myself using A to Ab like LKV on E9 B to Bb
comes in handy
i also have E to Eb on LKR on both Es
Add A to Bb ( RKR )to the Eb & there's another nice Minor 7 & an sus 4 or 11th chord
yeah, i like two footin' on C6 especially P5 & P7

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 2 Jul 2007 5:03 am

Bob, when you get familar with that passage of chords, go to the 4th fret and press pedals 5 and 6 along with lowering the A's on strings 3 through 8 for a nice C7th chord. This works nice before going up 1 fret and letting off all the pedals for a F chord.

Just a few of many things you can do with the A to Ab lever. There's also some great augmented voicings using it.

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 2 Jul 2007 7:18 am

If allowed only two knees for C6 I would need the A-Bb and C-B pulls.

A-Ab gets you an augmented.

P7 can substitute for C>C# for chords with a 5 on top.

admin · Post by **b0b** » 2 Jul 2007 8:28 am

I use the Ab lever for augmented chords only. It seems odd to me to use it for majors at a "4 frets up" position. Why do I need a C at the 4th fret when I already have one at the 3rd (C# lever or P8) and at the 5th (B lever, P4 or P7)?

I tried Randy's suggestion and it works, but my brain sees the adjacent positions much more easily. I guess it's because they correspond to E9th knee lever positions that I've been playing all my life.

Randy Beavers · Post by **Randy Beavers** » 2 Jul 2007 11:47 am

Bob, give me 10 minuites with you and I'll have you relying on that lever!

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