Professional Cleaners!

David Fields · Post by **David Fields** » 21 Apr 2007 6:02 am

I don't know much about steels, and hopefully I will be getting my first one in the next few weeks.... but besides the crack, and whether it was there before or after shipping is not the big thing to me. I am looking at the rusted parts. Someone else pointed this out also. Skip says that this was "his baby." Does anyone else let their equipment slip like this? I bet that most everyone here will admit to taking fairly good care of their equipment. This steel in the picture was NOT taken care of. Just an observation.

Scott Denniston · Post by **Scott Denniston** » 21 Apr 2007 6:32 am

They got an ol saying down in Texas. It goes "Fool me once shame on me ah fool me again and ah...shame on you or ah...well anyway it means ya can't fool me a third time...or somethin like that."

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 21 Apr 2007 7:08 am

Jonathan Shacklock wrote:
Is anyone else getting uncomfortable with this?

Johnathon, from my perspective, I believe all of "us" are "not comfortable" with any of this, other than trying to help get the instrument repaired, and restoring the usual friendly atmosphere to the forum. What WOULD put everyone at ease is to see Skip step up and try to resolve this with Frenchy, and work something out that both are happy with, thus ending a tense moment.

But the way it stands, A buyer paid a fair price for an instrument, and recieved that which is NOT what was advertised. The Seller refuses to talk to the buyer to resolve the situation, leaving the buyer stuck with misrepresented goods. Seems like the seller is "comfortable " with taking the money and running. The details we DO have is the sellers advertisement"s", and pictures of the instrument. The fact that Skip refuses to face the issue, in itself, is condeming. So until SK has some new information to offer, what CAN anyone conclude?? We all would like to see the peaceful resolution come about, but it takes two to do that, and Frenchy has tried to do that, with no positive results, so now it ends up here, as a plea to SK to do what's right, as well as a warning to other possible unaware buyers.

We as a "brotherhood", are not "comfortable" with ignoring a wrong. We want to ATTRACT people to the steel guitar community---and that happens with visible trust and comradery. We are NOT "comfortable" with turning our heads the other way. If scammers intend to prey upon our community, we ARE watching! JMHO

David Collins · Post by **David Collins** » 21 Apr 2007 7:23 am

James,

Couldn't have said it any better myself!!

The vast majority of post here are simply what amounts to folks that are strangers to eachother that are willing to help out.

Will Hart · Post by **Will Hart** » 21 Apr 2007 8:13 am

I'm in for $25. Someone needs to get this organized as to where and how to send the $$.

Dave Burr · Post by **Dave Burr** » 21 Apr 2007 9:41 am

This is certainly a tough spot and I feel for you Brian.

All, It's heartwarming to see the generosity and genuine concern from our "band of brothers"! Makes me proud to be a member of this great community. However, Brian has stated "numerous" times that he can cover the dollars for the repairs should he decide to go that route... As such, he might feel embarrassed to accept such generosity if he is in fact financially able to take care of the repairs himself. I know I would. I think the intent of the post, was to make our community aware of what had happened and possibly (through "peer pressure") force a resolve.

If I'm off base here, I too will make a contribution towards the needed repairs, should this situation not reach an ammicable solution.

Respectfully,
Dave Burr

Uffe Edefuhr · Post by **Uffe Edefuhr** » 21 Apr 2007 9:50 am

Shame on the seller... To sell a steel guitar in this condition and call it "my baby"?????
The seller must be a thief!

Regards
Uffe

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 21 Apr 2007 11:41 am

All the brotherhood stuff aside and strictly from a business transaction standpoint, This contract is void. There is either a non-knowledgeable seller or non-knowledgeable buyer involved, and either way if it went to court Skip would have his backside handed to him on a platter.

From the pictures it is obvious the crack did NOT occur in shipping - it was there when the seller had the guitar, as was the rust. You CAN see corrosion in the pictures sent before the sale, and the buyer probably should have asked more questions at that point - but the apparent fact is that the guitar body was damaged prior to shipping, there's no insurance claim, and whether or not Skip was aware of the crack (and based on his loving description one would assume he knew every little detail) he sold a broken guitar without disclosing the damage. The picture he sent also did not show the corrosion, which he also did not disclose.

At the very least he should refund the money and ALL shipping costs and take the guitar back. If that doesn't happen you have a solid lawsuit, although not an overly convenient one.

It's great that so many forum guys are offering money or help, but that should not have to happen - Skip should simply take it back and refund everything. His refusal to do so and his claim of shipping damage is just a huge red flag to me - indicating he knew EXACTLY what he was selling. That old glue makes him look pretty foolish.

I'd send him a formal demand letter. That's the prerequisite to a lawsuit. If he responds negatively (or not at all) then I'd contact the local authorities and look into how a small claims case could be handled for this. When you couple Skip's "advertising" with the picture he sent, it's a slam-dunk case. It might not be WORTH the hassle of a lawsuit, but it's certainly deserving of one.

PS - It is up to the buyer now to file a damage claim with most shippers...and it must be done usually within 10 days. I would file one anyway, as it provides evidence of the damage.

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 21 Apr 2007 12:03 pm

This is not the first time someone has been burned with on-line deals (ebay or the forum), we all seen simalar post's. Why are peaple still not affraid to drop a large amount of money for a guitar that is sight unseen? I have my limits with on-line purchasing (it is very low) so that way I am not out alot should I get burned. When you buy a used guitar that you never heard, never seen, don't know anything about this is the reality of what can happen.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 21 Apr 2007 12:16 pm

Well, maybe this will get people's attention.
There is always another guitar, and it's sure best to know ahead of time what you're getting. I sure wouldn't buy a piano, at the same kind of money, without looking at, say, the soundboard.
Nor would I buy one without playing it.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 21 Apr 2007 1:10 pm

What a rotten situation this is. SK's reputation and credibility is just about ruined, a brother has gotten burned, and the Forum has been demeened in the process. As much as I hate to see this happen, I am very, very proud of the Forum brotherhood's responses.

I have bought and sold here also, and still, in light of this recent situation, will continue to "trust, with verification" any forum member I deal with. While we are a unique group of people, we do reflect our society. Yet the vast majority are honest, hardworking, stand-up people who would give a brother the shirt off their back if need be. By standing up for each other, we can keep the scum at bay, and maintain our fine reputations.

By the way, I would have no problem, at all, with a selling rule that stated that all transactions must include a 3 day approval period between members ONLY...maybe this could be an unwritten rule that we voluntarily follow...just my opinion, though.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 21 Apr 2007 2:02 pm

AJ, and Charlie, most of us will continue to buy long distance, just because of the nature of steel guitar's availability. For instance, I am a shobud fan---old shobuds. I doubt seriously an old vintage shobud will pop up for sale at my small town local music store, enabling me to go down and, look at it and play it. And I don't have wads of money to hop a plane to go 800 miles to go play one for sale---won't work, and it's unrealistic. I guess we are vulnerable to truth in advertising and customer satisfaction guaranteed.

Mike, we already have an unwritten rule of customer satisfaction guaranteed. It's just being ignored by someone who has no respect of a buyer, and feels "safe" because of distance. My question is how to enforce it. Jim Sliff pretty much outlined the possibilities---bleak. Even small claims, SK would only have a judgement against his credit. Frenchy's still stuck.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 21 Apr 2007 3:17 pm

Scott Denniston · Post by **Scott Denniston** » 21 Apr 2007 4:06 pm

To me anyway $1500 is a good chunk-a-change. I don't think that guitar is worth much over a third of that as it sits. That said, it IS a Professional and could be made into a very special instrument AND the most unique thing about it is John Coop has offered to donate his talent AND look at all these pledges to pay for it. (I'd sure kick in too and I'm a pretty cheap SOB). I love these old Sho-Buds and would like to see it renewed. Jeff Surrat said mine was about the worst he'd ever seen and now it's the best I've seen or heard. You don't have enough dough to buy it from me. Sure in court they'd probably give Skip the chair and he deserves it but I'd sure like to see /hear that guitar when it's done. I think I want it!

Ron Whitworth · Post by **Ron Whitworth** » 21 Apr 2007 4:18 pm

I also have no dog in this hunt either.If you do much
buying anywhere long distance IMHO you are gonna get burnt every once in a while.I have got stung a few times as well as some of you here have also.I have learned to ask for better photos now ( learned that the hard way too!!) but now when i sell something i always take lots of photos & always tell any interested party that i will ahppily take any more/other or different photos that they would like to see.I don't like hearing of folks getting burnt on a deal & there are some even on this forum i would never purchase anything from - you live & learn.I, like several others here will agree with what has been said.."Steve Stallings- GREAT IDEA !!"

Danny, count me in for $25 also.Let me know where/when to send it to please.Thanks Ron

Lem Smith · Post by **Lem Smith** » 21 Apr 2007 11:27 pm

Some have mentioned getting pictures showing everything, etc... before making a purchase. That'll only help if the seller is honest. If a guy is willing to rip you off with a bad guitar, faking a few pics to send won't bother him at all. So, even getting pics isn't really all that helpful in preventing getting burned.

As far as a three day period to return something you bought, b0b doesn't have the authority to enforce something like that, other than banning them, and again, anyone willing to rip you off isn't going to let a rule from a message board slow them down.

Not sure what the best course of action to take is, other than everyone looking out for each other. If you see a known crook advertising, and someone showing interest in their item, then I guess the only thing to do is warn them.

There are many, many good, honest folks on this forum. Three that I have dealt with that are beyond reproach in all my dealings with them, are Duane Dunard, Bobbe Seymour, and Jon Light. I'm sure there are others, but those three have went way above and beyond the call.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 22 Apr 2007 4:58 am

James, I understand that Sho Bud's are as hard to find as any steel guitar in Lubbock, Texas, so I too bought long distance. The guitar was Mike Perlowin's, and was on Jim Palenscar's showroom floor, so at least I knew something of its provenance and I already had a virtual relationship with Mike.
My desire for it was followed by several phone calls to both parties so I'd know what I was getting. I too couldn't afford the trip to California, so I was as careful as I could be, and the sale was all positive and I have no intention of trading guitars again. The fact that both parties are forum members was a factor, but having established a voice-to-voice relationship was a bigger factor.

I'm saying that three separate offerings of Brian's Bud touted something different from what he received:

I have a wonderful 1973 Sho Bud Professional D-10 8 and 4 teardrop kness levers,in 100% original condition for sale.

I have a 1973 Sho Bud Professional D-10 in original condition.

I have a wonderful sho bud professional 1973 in excellent condition.... The guitar needs nothing....

So caveat emptor is still the rule of the day.
Desire is a strong element--just like Mr. Toad--but it has to be tempered with something more substantial, like a basis for one's trust.

I would have shied away from claims of 'excellent condition,' 'the guitar needs nothing.' A 35-year old push-pull for 12-15 hundred in original condition that needs nothing is a red flag.

I think my purchase would have passed a 'three-day waiting period' among fo'bros. But it's an MSA, not a Bud, in the same price range.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 22 Apr 2007 5:46 am

Yeah Charlie, You are right on. We are as careful as we can be, and yet we can be only so careful, if that makes sense.

Our reputations grow or decline, depending on how we resolve issues that come up.

A. Roncetti · Post by **A. Roncetti** » 22 Apr 2007 7:05 am

I was only brave enough to buy right from a dealer or the actual builder. I did check out a lot of used steels first.With the help of a friend of mine who plays for Blue Rodeo we went with new guitars. My question is how does a guitar get such damage and neglect?

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 22 Apr 2007 8:44 am

James you make good points, I understand the steel guitar is very hard to come by even more so if you look for a particular brand. For me there are no steel shops in cincy and all the guitar stores don't or won't carry them, so I would have to take a weekend trip to billy coopers or to nashville, bobby's. This is the part of the trade that sucks is the travelling! When buying a used PSG there can be so many things wrong with it that you really take a gamble buying sight unseen. Personaly there has been alot of post's of guys complaining about what they recieved and how upset they are so I don't trust buying used on-line. What is happening here is the reality end of it. Mike W you make very good points on coming up with a guidline towards "customer satisfaction" I think maybe something should be enforced. And James this is just my opinion! Take Care!

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 22 Apr 2007 10:07 am

A Roncetti I buy from dealers or builders myself.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 22 Apr 2007 10:10 am

Yeah AJ, your right on about the risk. You are a lucky person if you are within driving distance to check out some steels at Bobbe's or Billy's. It helps if you are able to "wrench" on them a bit, too. It's not like you can buzz over to the local music store and get a set-up job or repair, on a steel guitar. I guess we do what we have to do.

Alan Brookes · Post by **Alan Brookes** » 22 Apr 2007 10:34 am

Lem Smith wrote:...If a guy is willing to rip you off with a bad guitar, faking a few pics to send won't bother him at all.

Absolutely. You're taking a risk buying over the internet "sight unseen" but I've bought a lot of interesting instruments on eBay, and only been ripped off thrice. Most people are honest, and my only experience with dishonesty was a student in Bowling Green, KY, (EDIT: THIS CHARACTER WAS NOT A MEMBER OF THIS FORUM. THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN BOWLING GREEN, OF WHICH HE IS NOT TYPICAL, AND I APOLOGIZE IF ANYONE THOUGHT THAT I WAS REFERRING TO THEM.) who sold the same Ovation 12-String six times. This fellow even had the gall to ask me to send him a case so that he could put the guitar in to send back to me. The second incident was a guy who sold me a MIDI drum machine with no MIDI connections. In that case it was just ignorance. The third was a dealer in England who mailed me a 1930s banjo without detuning it and removing the bridge. The bridge tore its way through the vellum. But that was just incompetence.

What bothers us about this transaction is that it was between two members of our own fraternity.

Mike Wheeler · Post by **Mike Wheeler** » 22 Apr 2007 10:35 am

James, you are, of course, right. b0b couldn't enforce such a rule. Maybe it's just wishful thinking. I'm going to add that 3 day right of refusal into any ads I post from now on. I think it's the right thing to do for the buyers sake. If I have nothing to hide then why not? It would, at least, show the intent to be honest.

And, yeah, if someone wants to engage in ripping another off, they'll figure a way to do it.

James Morehead · Post by **James Morehead** » 22 Apr 2007 10:49 am

I'm amazed SK is carrying on with buisness right now, as if nothing ever happened. And even more amazed that people are actually responding to his ads as if nothing ever happened. Asleep at the wheel, (and not the band!)

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