Advice On Buying An S-10 or D10

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 16 Apr 2007 10:53 am

Am considering buying a professional model PSG but am not sure if I should buy an S-10 or D-10. I am 65 years old, and a beginner, and currently have a Carter Starter with the E9 setup. I am only interested in learning to play southern gospel/classic country. It is my understanding that the C-6 setup is primarily for jazz and western swing.

All comments/suggestions will be appreciated.

Donny

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 16 Apr 2007 10:55 am

I think E9th will keep you busy for quite a while. If you need some gospel tab, just let me know.

Wayne D. Clark · Post by **Wayne D. Clark** » 16 Apr 2007 1:46 pm

Don, Been Where your are. S10 3/1, D10 4/8, Presently S10 3/5. Save your money, if your going to do Gospel and Old Country a fine S10 3/4 Will serve you very well. Check the Insterments for Sale section here on the Forum. Chec your E-mail

Desert Rose S10 3/5
Goodrich 120
Nashville 400

Gary Preston · Post by **Gary Preston** » 16 Apr 2007 2:31 pm

Guys i would like to say that if i were just starting at playing a steel guitar again i would have bought a universal tuning . This way you can have the sound of both the classic country and Gospel along with the western swing or jazz sound . I have been playing the steel guitar since 1976 and just now starting to play the back neck ! I do only Southern Gospel Music and didn't see any place for the C-6th sound in what i do until now . Maybe i'm a slow learner or something ! Again i would suggest a 12 string universal if i were starting out again . This may be something to think about . Best regards and GOD bless you . Gary .

Sho~Bud Pro -ll Custom & Sho~Bud L.D.G. Fender Vibrosonic w/ 15'' J.B.L. D-130 . (2) Peavey Nashville 400 amps w/15'' Black Widows . Lexicon Processor .

Jerry Malvern · Post by **Jerry Malvern** » 16 Apr 2007 2:40 pm

A single 10 will work just fine, and they are alot lighter in weight than a double 10. I'm 55, and starting to lighten the load, all this steel guitar stuff is heavy.

Larry Jamieson · Post by **Larry Jamieson** » 16 Apr 2007 4:04 pm

For the music you want to play, a single ten will do the job just fine. Lots less weight to carry around too, if you are taking it to church and back. Get at least 3 pedals and 4 knee levers. I recommend Emmons set up with ABC pedals because that is what most instructional material teaches. Good luck, and enjoy the ride! Larry J.

A. Roncetti · Post by **A. Roncetti** » 16 Apr 2007 4:50 pm

A universal 12 is not a bad idea or an extended E9th S12. Just my2¢

Stan Paxton · Post by **Stan Paxton** » 16 Apr 2007 5:10 pm

Hey Donnie, glad to hear you are starting on the adventure. I started "old", and believe me, the single 10 E9 is plenty for a good long time. I also play mostly Gospel, but love the country favorites. Leave my main guitar set up at church. Have recently been wanting a SD12 with extended E9, so got a good used one and having a ball here at home, trying to get used to the difference in grip orientation. Learn the E9 good before branching out to something else, in my opinion, since E9 is plenty complex to do well. At the end of this decision making, you will have to do what you think is best, because each to his own; all these guys are probably better able to advise than I

. Good luck, & God Bless...

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 17 Apr 2007 5:14 am

Thanks much to everyone for your input. Looks like I'll be sticking with the S-10 with 3/4, for a good long while. Like you say it is less weight to lug around, and that is definitely a strong consideration. I'll probably order the Carter guitar below:

Donny

Bryan Rankins · Post by **Bryan Rankins** » 18 Apr 2007 3:56 am

Donny if you're going to be playing in church, stay away from the 12 strings. Only the instrument of "10" strings is mentioned in the bible (PS 92:3).

But then again, the bible also says to play skillfully, with a loud noise. Maybe I better go practice.

Stan Paxton · Post by **Stan Paxton** » 18 Apr 2007 6:27 am

That one you got picked out shure is a purdy thing; when you can play it as good as it looks, you'll do fine. Bryan is right, of course

(Bryan, where abouts in Missouri? , that is my home state)

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 18 Apr 2007 5:52 pm

Bryan & Stan,

Thanks much for your advice. Believe me -- the thought of playing anything that has more than 10 strings has never entered my mind. If I can just get to the point that I feel reasonably comfortable playing 10 strings that will be a real accomplishment for me.

Today, Mr. Glyn Privitt gave me my first PSG lesson. I have a long ways to go but I just thank Our Lord and Savior for leading me to such an accomplished PSG player and teacher. I feel really blessed.

Donny

Brad Malone · Post by **Brad Malone** » 18 Apr 2007 6:55 pm

Hey Dennis, I also recommend that you get an S10. Remember, that with added knee levers, an S-10 (E9th) can be set up to get many C6th sounds on the E9th. I have a D-10, which I'm keeping, and I just ordered a new Williams (600 series, S10WD) with 3 floors and 7 knees. With my Steel and computer my retirement days are the best days of my life....I'm never bored...always another song to learn.

Garry Vanderlinde · Post by **Garry Vanderlinde** » 18 Apr 2007 8:06 pm

Sure, get the S-10 but since you are interested in the “other” tuning, get a lap 8 or 6 string and explore it for fun. The great thing about C6th is just grabbing a handful and sliding around. No chromatic strings or awkward 7ths and 9ths to get in the way. And pedals?... who cares because you don't need them.

you might find that it enhances your overall playing experience.

Jim Walker · Post by **Jim Walker** » 19 Apr 2007 12:47 pm

For a few dollars more you could get an SD10 and beleive they are more comfortable to play. I like the pad.

JW

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 19 Apr 2007 1:23 pm

I concurr with Jim. A SD10 is more comfortable to play, at least for me.

A good C6 player can amaze you with the versatility of the C6 neck. Personally, I think C6 is easier than E9 for just grabbing a big ol' wad of chords. The late Skeeter Black could play things on C6 that were very E9 country sounding.

The reverse is true as well. You can play many C6 type sounds on the E9 tuning.

BTW.. I knew Texas was big, but I didn't know we had annexed Atlanta!

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 19 Apr 2007 3:56 pm

Donny if all you want is to play gospel I would just get a SD-10 (double frame), with 3&5 if you can get more knees you may want to. You can do so much with the e9th, you are not just limited to gospel. Personally I would stay away from 12 strings.

Donny Dennis · Post by **Donny Dennis** » 19 Apr 2007 5:13 pm

Have emailed the Carter folks asking about the possibility of getting the PSG pictured above as an SD-10 with 3/4. I think that will work for me just fine for many years. In regards to the suggestion about getting a lap steel I have one of Musician's Friend cheapest lap steels that I bought about two or three years ago but it just doesn't do anything for me. I will probably try to sell it one of these days for what I can get out of it.

Donny[/code]

A. Roncetti · Post by **A. Roncetti** » 19 Apr 2007 6:08 pm

I agree on the SD-10(or 12) Great place to lean when looking over sheet music etc.

Jeremy Threlfall · Post by **Jeremy Threlfall** » 19 Apr 2007 10:32 pm

I don't get the pad thing myself.

I know LG dreamed it up, and I can imagine it is comfortable for D10 players - and I know the floor pedals are further away like they are on a D10, but ...

I learned to play on a Carter Starter and I now have a Pro-1 - both are single bodied. I like their compactness, and I can't imagine ever buying an SD10. I never feel uncomfortable playing it, thats for sure.

It seems alot of the new single 10s are double bodied, with pad. I hope the good ole S10 never goes out of fashion and the major shops stop making them. My next guitar will probably be a Carter, if they make an S10.

You don't see many Universals with pads, do you?

A. J. Schobert · Post by **A. J. Schobert** » 20 Apr 2007 6:57 am

JT thanks on comments about the "pad", I personally like them however they can be a bad crutch, Yes you can rest your arm on the pad however you want to be able to move your right hand freely so for some guys maybe a single body would be better.

Jim Walker · Post by **Jim Walker** » 20 Apr 2007 8:42 am

I had a Carter Starter and a Pro 1. I'm 5'11" 260 lbs, I looked like an elephant riding a tricycle and it felt that way too. The Carter Starter paperwork even says it's designed for a 140lb person. 140 pounds does not describe 95% of the steelers I know. HAHA! As you grow in knowledge as a steel player you may want to add more pulls which can make the knee levers harder to operate and on a light single bodied guitar that can cause guitar movement issues.

Another thing I beleive is having the neck a little further away promotes better right hand position and helps eliminate "Chicken Wing Elbow".

JW

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 20 Apr 2007 10:57 am

Jim, your post about the 140 lb. aspect of the Carter Starter troubled me, because a buddy out here wants to dive into pedal steel, and asked me about how to get going-but he doesn't want to "dive into the deep end," in other words, an instrument like the Starter is about as "deep" as he can afford, he can't take the "plunge" for a pro-level steel.

So I just spoke to Ann Fabian, at Carter, and she told me this is absolutely the first time she has ever heard anything about a player's weight limit on a Starter, 140 lbs. or otherwise, and asked me to "quell the rumor on the Forum."

Is it something about (shot in the dark here) "don't put an object that weighs more than 140 lbs. on top of the guitar," which is along the lines of a statement at the bottom of a package of bacon bits that I saw the other day when using some in a recipe: it read, do not eat this package.

Well, yeah, duh! But I guess the lawyers have to insist on this sort of thing nowadays.

Anyway, I'm not doubting that you have a piece of paper in your posession that mentions this 140 Lb. thing, but I am curious as to the verbiage contained therein.

Ann Fabian came across as being mildly shocked when I gave her this information.

Tucker Jackson · Post by **Tucker Jackson** » 20 Apr 2007 12:08 pm

Jeremy Threlfall wrote: You don't see many Universals with pads, do you?

Well, I used to have a Fessenden S12-U that was on a double body. So, yes, it a had a pad. Jerry made a bunch of those...

It ain't about havin' the pad -- I can take or leave that -- it's about being able to sit further back from the pedals and still be able to reach the knee levers.

A double body -- whether a D-10 or an SD-10 -- makes it it much easier to keep your left foot hovering over the pedals for long periods of time... because you can sit a little further back from the pedals as compared to single-wide guitar, but you can still reach the knee levers.

It's a matter or personal ergonomic comfort, so there is no "right" or "wrong" way here.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 20 Apr 2007 1:07 pm

Donny W. Dennis wrote:Am considering buying a professional model PSG but am not sure if I should buy an S-10 or D-10. I am 65 years old, and a beginner, and currently have a Carter Starter with the E9 setup. I am only interested in learning to play southern gospel/classic country. It is my understanding that the C-6 setup is primarily for jazz and western swing.

Donny, I think you are getting much more information than you need here, and some of it seems questionable and off topic.

Although you can play any kind of music with any kind of tuning (it's all the same notes, just in different places), yes, C6 is used mostly for western swing and jazz. For "southern gospel/classic country" an S10 is all you need.

Although I play a 12-string universal myself, I only use the low strings and B6 mode for rock, blues, western swing, jazz and classical, and hardly touch them for country. I love exploring those other genres, you may not; and at any rate plenty of players play them on an S10.

Since you are already use to an S10 (your Carter Starter), an S10 professional model will feel just right for you, and avoids the extra size and weight of an SD10. The wide arm rest of an SD10 gets in my way and slows me down. Most modern pro S10s actually have about half a body-width shelf, and a narrow "wrist rest" can be put there if you like it to steady your right hand, without getting in the way of your bar arm.

I have never understood the leg postition argument for an SD10. The pedals of an S10 are directly under the strings in exactly the same position they are for SD10, and for the front neck of a D10. You can move your bench to sit as close or as far back from the pedals as you like on any configuration. So there can be just as much leg room between your bench and the pedals on an S10 as on an SD10 or a D10. Yes, on S10 you sit further back from the back apron. But your position in relation to the pedals and strings can be exactly the same. As for the weight of the player, an S10 actually gives more room for a beer gut - think about it. In fact, this whole "leg room" red herring seems to come up because former D10 players sit down at an S10 and try to belly up to the back apron the same way they do on a D10. Of course that would jam your legs against the pedal rods. But if you simply position your seat to give your legs the the comfortable room they are use to, it works exactly the same in terms of string distance and leg room. The only difference is that on an S10 there is a comfortable space between your belly and the back apron, just as on a piano (can you imagine keyboard players putting an armrest between them and the keyboard?). One minor consideration is that on an S10 you can see your feet easier for initial positioning, although it is not good practice to watch your feet while playing.

Most of the arguments for an SD10 come from former D10 players who simply like to keep the same playing posture with the strings and pedals as they were use to on D10. That does not seem to be your situation. I know some pros who play mostly on the back C6 neck on a D10, and I have never heard them complain about not having an armrest, or about leg postition (yes, I know Curly Chalker put C6 on his front neck, but how many other people do that?).

Finally, why are we talking about the Carter Starter? Donny is moving from that to a pro model. Most pro model D10s have sufficient weight to keep the guitar from moving around while hitting the knee levers.

Get yourself that beautiful Carter S10, Donny, and have a wonderful time playing it.

The Steel Guitar Forum