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Topic: Are two really better than one? |
Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 4 Apr 2007 7:54 pm |
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I have been playing Steel for many years, and I think I have tried nearly every practical tuning and string array there is. (6, 8 10 and 12 string)
Okay here's my two cents...
PICK ONE TUNING AND STAY WITH IT! I have improved tremendously over the last few years by simplifing and limiting my self to one tuning. I have memorized over 100 songs, with mostly 2 and 3 string harmony, a few slants, and some choice single string lines.
I also teach steel lessons, but with another tuning, and I'm no where near as proficent! I know some of you will disagree with me, but it is working really good for me to STANDARDIZE. It's fun to mess around on another tuning for a while, but when it's time to record or play a serious gig. I know what to do! Back to Basics...
DOM |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 4 Apr 2007 10:37 pm
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| I agree. Especially since I want to be able to do alot of improvisation. It's hard for me to even imagine staying really sharp in more than one tuning. I'm dabbling in a second tuning right now. But in the long run I will almost certainly stay with one or change to the other rather than keeping both. |
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Randy Reeves
From:
LaCrosse, Wisconsin, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 3:42 am
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I too agree. although I have several laps with different tunings, it is my open G that I use 99% now.
by doing so it has allowed me to discover the potential within .
I try to play everything with it. Cash. Hank, Zeppelin,Johnson, James.
it is working. |
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Todd Weger
From:
Safety Harbor, FLAUSA
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 6:31 am yep...
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For the most part, I agree with that sentiment.
I say 'for the most part,' because I switch from C6 to A6 quite a bit (C6 about 80% of the time), and while the A6 has the fifth on top, and is a minor third lower in pitch, the general shapes are the same as C6 - just with a five on top. It doesn't take me too long to switch my brain over when picking up the A6 guitar, because I tend to think in numerically (i.e., I, ii7, V7, etc...), and have a vocabulary of shapes/boxes that I pull my licks from. It frees me up to improvise much easier this way.
Lately, I've been messing around with the C6/A7 tuning that Rick Aiello uses, and am kind of digging it. Essentially C6, but with the lower C being raised to C#. Some cool runs you can do with that one.
_________________
Todd James Weger --
1956 Fender Stringmaster T-8 (C6, E13, A6); 1960 Fender Stringmaster D-8 (C6, B11/A6); Custom-made 25" aluminum cast "fry pan" with vintage Ricky p'up (C6); 1938 Epiphone Electar (A6); 1953 Oahu Tonemaster; assorted ukuleles; upright bass |
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Dom Franco
From:
Beaverton, OR, 97007
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 7:32 am
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Todd;
I think we are on the same page... A tuning that is just one string different or up the fretboard 3 steps is pretty easy to switch back and forth. But I was talking major differences like between Leavitt and open "G". I also play pedal steel and dobro, so I just have to adapt in those cases.
Sincerely;
Dom Franco |
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Tony Harris
From:
England
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 8:10 am
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| A few years ago I wrote to Tom Morrell, from an address on the back of one of his CDs, to ask which tuning he used, because I loved his playing on those swing albums. I got a nice hand written letter from him telling me he was using (I think) an E6 or E13 tuning. He had more strings than I had, but when I looked at the intervals, the 'core' of his tuning was the same as the C6 I was learning, just moved to a different position. He told me the main thing, whatever the tuning, was to "really know your way around it". |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 8:31 am Re: Are two really better than one?
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| Dom Franco wrote: |
PICK ONE TUNING AND STAY WITH IT! |
Funny you should bring this up, because I've just been through the same process myself and couldn't agree more.
Now I tune my lapsteels, weissenborn and dobro to open-D with the occasional variation to a maj7, minor 3d, etc, but still with the open-D as the basis.
All the notes are there, and with some creative slanting I can get most of the two and three note harmonies I need. Life is much easier now.... 
Steinar
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Michael Papenburg
From:
Oakland, CA
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 12:52 pm
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| I use G or G6 for pretty much everything. I have to say that once I settled into 1 tuning it really helped my playing. That being said, I just started messing around with open E for those times when I need fewer 3rds in my tuning. |
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Eddie Cunningham
From:
Massachusetts, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 1:27 pm One is good ? More is BETTER !!
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| Sorry guys, I have to say you need 3 or 4 different tunings to play all different types of music !! IMHO ! Some songs play best in different tunings !! I have a T-8 with C-6th , A-6th/B-11th and E-13th tunings and I would like a couple more necks if I could handle the size ! I should have got a Harlin Multi-Kord back in the 50s when I first saw one !! Just my own thoughts !! Eddie "C" ( the old geezer ) |
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Kevin Brown
From:
England
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 1:45 pm
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Well now,theres a topic to behold !
I have become of the opinion that if one becomes familiar with an E dependant 'mother' tuning, AND an C6th/A6th mother tuning style then you might (just) have many styles covered. With the E based tuning the mind boggles at the variants just by changing 2nd string up a tone or tone/half, or the 5th string up 3 frets for an E7th, or down a semitone for an E 6th, plus the utterly magical detune of top string a semitone giving you all the Don Helms variants. This will help cover both Lindley and early Hawaiin styles Then the C6th/A 7th 'Mother' tuning will help strive towards Murphey/Byrd influnenced tunes as well as giving you the opportunity to be a bit more 'orchestral' when dealing with 'arrangements' a la 3 or 4 string chord 'clamps' in major and minor tunoing. But then again who the hell am I to pass on these 'judgements' |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 2:27 pm
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I've mostly played in E-related tunings (E, E6, E7, C#m7) and high bass A (and G), but now that I'm playing other music, I feel a need for a C13 and an E13 neck. I like the C13 with the high G, and I like the G# on top of E13. I recently purchased a Stringmaster with a 24" scale and it sounds better than the previous 2 I've owned.
Acoustic steel is a different beast than electric. On acoustic, I like the low bass notes. On electric, I like the closer intervals for 1) playing across the fretboard and 2) getting those Bill Evans chords (yeah, right). I also like the high-tuned strings for pedal steel sounds. Real hard to achieve that without them.
So, while I do agree and have advocated this, I think once you are very comfortable with a tuning and its cousins, you might try venturing out a bit as the music might dictate.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Terry VunCannon
From:
Greensboro, North Carolina, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 2:45 pm
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| There may be a reason that David Lindley stayed with the open D & E tunings on lap steel for an entire career with Jackson Browne...TV. |
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Gerard Ventura
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 4:28 pm
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Someone from Scotty's music store told me that a famous player from Western Swing days (can't remember who) had a T8, but all 3 were tuned to C6- he just wanted some options if he broke a string during performance.
If you only play single neck, I certainly understand just using one tuning.
I'm on a D8, A6 and E13. Most of my laughable attempts at "soloing" are on the A6 neck.
Just to stir the pot a little, a steel player told me once "if you're going to use a blues style G or D chord tuning, save your money and just play slide guitar." |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 5:24 pm
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| Gerard Ventura wrote: |
| a steel player told me once "if you're going to use a blues style G or D chord tuning, save your money and just play slide guitar." |
Haha, yeah I've heard that one before,- a player here in Norway once told me that "unless you tune to C6 you're only playing horizontal bottleneck slide"... 
Maybe he's right, but quite frankly - I don't care, it's the musical end result that matters to me.
Lately I've taken up bottleneck sliding again, and there are some major differences:
- lap steel will produce a more solid and fluid tone with better sustain (the 'vulnerability' of the bottleneck tone is part of what I like about it, besides the ability to both fret and slide)
- slanting chords and harmonies that you'd have to (partly) fret when bottleneck sliding, moving fluently in and out of these slants
- personally I find that I phrase differently on the two instruments, even when the tunings are identical. Bottleneck slide inspires a rougher side of me, while I tend to play more melodic on lap steel.
So I keep my lap steels in open-D and my bottleneck slide guitar in open-E, and I don't feel guilty about that at all.
Steinar
PS - the player I refer to in this post also mentioned Bob Dunn as an example of early western swing "X6th tuning" playing. I was only happy to inform him that Dunn played in straight highbass-A most/all of the time....
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 5 Apr 2007 10:51 pm
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| To my way of thinking, C13 with a high G and E13 with a high G# differ mainly in that one has the 5th on top and the other the 3rd. The intervals are identical. Or, Mr. Neer, are you talking about a version of McAulliffe's E13. If not, I think the main advantage is a change in register. Am I wrong? |
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Mark Eaton
From:
Sonoma County in The Great State Of Northern California
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 12:38 am
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| Gerard Ventura wrote: |
Just to stir the pot a little, a steel player told me once "if you're going to use a blues style G or D chord tuning, save your money and just play slide guitar." |
Well, Gerard, you stirred my pot on that one!
Steinar was being very nice in saying that maybe that guy was right, but I strongly disagree.
I was at a music store, and a guy who was sampling guitars and sounded like a pretty strong player on a National played bottleneck style in D grabbed a dobro and retuned it to G from D. And then he asked the storekeeper for a bar. Well, he approached the lap style like he did bottleneck style, and though his intonation seemed fine, it sounded pretty rough. It's a different kettle of fish. He wasn't playing the instrument like a steel player.
Jerry Douglas is known of course primarily for his dobro playing, but he's also a great lap steel player and just like his dobro playing, he spends the vast majority of him time in G and D. Cindy Cashdollar, when she is playing six-string lap steel instead of eight-string, along with C6th, also plays in G and D, and probably mostly G at that.
And since we're on the subject of dobro, I guess since Douglas, Rob Ickes, Mike Auldridge, and a bunch of other great dobro players use G tuning the majority of the time, then maybe they should sell their squareneck resos and go to roundneck models and play bottleneck style.
Didn't Duane Allman play bottleneck on his Les Paul mostly in E tuning? I guess if we took that anonymous steel player's advice in Gerald's post, then those of you that like E tuning on lap should sell your guitars as well, and stick with a regular guitar tuned to E and play bottleneck style.
I hope that the steel player that told that to Gerard isn't someone famous whom I admire, because if that were the case, I'd be really disappointed that they made the statement. 
_________________
Mark
Last edited by Mark Eaton on 6 Apr 2007 7:42 am; edited 2 times in total |
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Kevin Brown
From:
England
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 5:00 am
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| Just a note, I had always been led to believe that Duane Allman played slide in regular tuning (quite difficult but effective)as he did not need to re-tune during a set |
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Gerard Ventura
From:
Texas, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 5:26 am
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| Kevin Brown wrote: |
| Just a note, I had always been led to believe that Duane Allman played slide in regular tuning (quite difficult but effective)as he did not need to re-tune during a set |
Jeff Beck plays slide in standard tuning, because he doesn't want to re-learn the fretboard, but I believe Allman played slide in E major, low to high E-B-E-G#-B-E. |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 5:30 am
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Bob Brozman plays bottleneck slide on a roundneck tricone in lowbass-G, and steel on a squareneck tricone in lowbass-G. Yet it's pretty easy to tell the difference.. Why shouldn't the same apply to electric slide and steel?
Steinar
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Edward Meisse
From:
Santa Rosa, California, USA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 8:47 am
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| No matter what tuning you're in, you can do alot of things on a lap instrument that you just can't do with a bottleneck. |
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Michael Papenburg
From:
Oakland, CA
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 8:57 am
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| I love A6 or G6 but there are definitely times where I prefer open G or open E. There are times when having fewer 3rds or 6ths is much more appropriate. I also totally agree that lap steel sounds nothing like bottleneck slide. |
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Ray Montee
From:
Portland, Oregon (deceased)
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 10:37 am Don't get mad at me.....I'm too sensitive
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You fellows obviously, really know your music, the ins and outs of it... You know all about the various combinations of tunings and strings, etc., all that technical talk about which tuning is best, etc., ......(and I admire each of you for having that complete knowledge).....but you know:
I've met an overwhelming number of folks down thro' the years, that knew all that stuff, stuff that bored me.....and that I wasn't at all interested in learning....and you know what? Many of them can't play a simple, single tune like HOME ON THE RANGE or RED RIVER VALLEY all of the way through and differently each time it's played. I realize it doesn't apply to you guys but it is an obvious fact of steel guitar life.
I'm totally demoralized when I hear all of this high tech music talk spoken so freely......with authority, when I have no idea what you're talking about. Whew!
But I venture to say, my musical background allowed me to enjoy playing in big band 7+ pieces, on radio, TV, dance band stages and records. All of the instrumentals I used to be able to play....... and I have no idea how I made it this far.
ONE TUNING? That's like a carpenter setting out to build a house with only a ball-pane hammer. Those tuning choices give your two octave instrument the versatility to play anything! I'd give it some more thought if I were some of you, eh? Once you reach a plateau of satisfaction with your playing, that's most likely where your progress and learning experiences will END! |
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Steinar Gregertsen
From:
Arendal, Norway, R.I.P.
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 10:54 am Re: Don't get mad at me.....I'm too sensitive
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| Ray Montee wrote: |
| Once you reach a plateau of satisfaction with your playing, that's most likely where your progress and learning experiences will END! |
Ray, saying I'll stick to one tuning (at least for the time being) is NOT the same as saying I am satisfied with my playing, quite the contrary - I realize I have a lot left to explore in this particular tuning and prefer to stick with it instead of spreading myself thin over 4-5 tunings (which I have done in the past).
This will most likely speed up my "progress and learning experience", not end it.
I am never completely satisfied with my playing, the best 'compliment' I ever give myself is "not bad, everything considered".......
Life is a strange and dynamic experience, and who knows - a year from now I may be sitting here with a T-8 tuned to C6, A6 and E13, but for now I'm back to basics and a straight D-major tuning.
Steinar
_________________
"Play to express, not to impress"
Website - YouTube |
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Mike Neer
From:
NJ
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 10:58 am
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Ray, I was lucky enough to start studying music on my own as a little kid, because of my desire to play with my uncle's band. By the time I was 14, I was in a multitude of bands with him, from big R&B bands in Newark, NJ, to Country Rock bands. I was very much an ear player, but I wanted to know more. I wanted to understand all the big chords that fascinated me in books and on my grandfather's jazz LPs. I put a lot of time into the book work. A lot I've forgotten--a lot I still use.
There's nothing wrong with not knowing if you can play (and I know you can). That's getting into the trenches, not armchair guitar playing. It's not what you know, it's how you use it. Ultimately, you have to play the damn guitar.
_________________
Links to streaming music, websites, YouTube: Links |
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Bill McCloskey
From:
Nanuet, NY
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Posted 6 Apr 2007 1:15 pm
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Ray,
I'm not sure what has been brought up here that you find confusing. It seems pretty straightforward.
My personal feeling (right now at this moment, with the right to change my mind at any time in the future) is that the dobro G tuning has so much stuff in it, that it could last me a lifetime working through it all. I've heard bluegrass played on it, jazz played on it, blues played on it. Like Bottom's Dream in Midsummer's Night Dream, it has no bottom. I'm staying with G and G6 tuning.
Btw, Mike Auldridge plays 4 tunings: G, G6, C6, and E9th |
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