One speaker or multiple speakers?

David Doggett · Posted 21 Mar 2007 5:16 pm

I've been looking at the Fender Super-Sonic (http://www.fender.com/products/search.php?partno=2160100400) as a possible amp for blues pedal steel. It is a 60 watt two channel amp. One channel is Fender clean, with two options: Vibrolux-like, or Tweed Bassman-like. The other channel is a "Burn" or Marshall-like distortion channel. The amp comes as a 1x12 combo, or as a head with 4, 8, and 16 ohm options. You can hook the head up to a 2x12 cab, or a 4x12 half-stack cab, or full stack with two 4x12 cabs. All cabs have the same Celestion speaker. My question is - what will be the sound difference of all these speaker options - from 1 to 8 of the same speaker? What is the difference in sound between 60 watts through one speaker or through 8? Will it just be louder, or what? I am aware that with a one or two speaker amp, there is a certain pleasing tone you can feel in your gut in the low mids and lows when you are close to the amp, but that does not really carry past the stage, or maybe the front row. Would the multiple speakers project that further out into the audience? Suppose you got the same volume level from one speaker or from 8 speakers, say in the middle of the audience. Would the volume level be the same on stage with the one as with the 8 speakers? Inquiring minds want to know.

David Doggett · Posted 22 Mar 2007 6:14 am

Any thoughts?

David Doggett · Posted 22 Mar 2007 10:38 am

Some of you rockers have experience or opinions on this? Same amp wattage; one speaker versus a full stack (8 of the same speaker). What would be the volume difference? Other than volume, what would be the tonal difference?

James Morehead · From: Prague, Oklahoma, USA - R.I.P.

Interesting question. I also wonder how you would wire all those speakers up to get "what" ohmage.

David Doggett · Posted 22 Mar 2007 8:19 pm

James, the combo is 1x12 with an 8 ohm Celestion. The head (same power, 60 watts) has the options of 4, 8 or 16 ohms. The 2x12 cab has two 16 ohm Celestions wired in parallel for 8 ohms for the system. The 4x12 cabs have four 16 ohm Celestions that are divided up in pairs in parallel for 8 ohms per pair; then those two circuits are wired in series for 16 ohms for the system. So you can run a half stack as 16 ohms, or run two of those in parallel for a full stack at 8 ohms. I believe all the speakers are 75 watts each.

I would get the head. I'm not really considering using a full stack, rather I'd probably choose either the 2x12 cab or one of the 4x12s. I could also use it with one or two of my 1x15 JBL D130 cabs (8 ohms each). I'm just curious what the difference would be between two and four speakers, and what it would sound like with a full stack of eight. It just got me thinking. Rockers regularly run 50 to 100 watt amps through a half stack or a full stack. Yet steelers typically use 80 to 300 watt amps with a single speaker, or maybe one additional extension speaker.

Steel speakers are usually rated from 100-300 watts, and a single speaker can take the whole power of the amp. Whereas the guitar speakers are usually rated at 50-100 watts. So that is a difference right there that has an effect on tone and on when the speakers begin to breakup. I'm just trying to understand these two very different philosophies: 1) a single speaker that can take the full power of the amp; 2) multiple speakers that can handle a great excess beyond what the amp can put out.

David Doggett · Posted 23 Mar 2007 4:54 am

Roman Sonnleitner · From: Vienna, Austria

Combo: lighter (obviously...), less projection, but more room-filling (sinmce it's open on the back), less punch, but fuller sounding.

Closed-back cabinet: heavier, more punch, tighter bass, more projection, can sound a bit constipated/stiff.

One speaker: lighter; that's about the only thing in its favor.

Multiple speakers: more room-filling, sounds spreads around, fuller sound, sometimes almost reverb like (like on a 4x10" Bassman).

I'd personally prefer a 2x12" cab, maybe half-open: still relatively easy to carry, fuller sounding than a singtle speaker.

That's all speaking from a 6-string guitar player's perspective, though!

David Doggett · Posted 23 Mar 2007 10:45 am

Thanks, Roman. A 6-stringer's experience is helpful. I don't think many steelers have experience playing steel through half stacks and full stacks.

Anyone else got an opinion?

P Gleespen · From: Toledo, OH USA

I don't know if this will be of any use to you, since I'll be talking bass rigs, but here's my experience:

On my old bass rig, when I went from one 15" cab to two 15" cabs, with the same wattage, the volume did go up, but not too much...hardly at all. The sound was a lot more "airy" to me though. It seemed to fill the room more. It was for sure a lot more "clean".

The best sounding cabinet I ever played through (and I tried a lot of em) was an 8x10 Ampeg cab. So, I don't know, more speakers = better? Maybe.

Maybe it was the design of the cabinet...

We did a tour with a stoner rock band called "Kyuss" (I don't think many people here would know of them) and Josh (the guitar player) played through two 8x10 Ampeg bass cabs. Huge (yoog) sound.

I tried a 2x15 Boogie cab that did nothing for me. I really tried to like it, cause they were trying to get our band to do an endorsement...but I digress.

Again, I'm sorry my info is all bass related, hope it helps.

I'd love to know how that amp works out for you, I was just reading up on that model. It sounds pretty cool...of course I was reading the Fender propaganda, so obviously, the writing was a bit biased. Wink

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Kevin Ruddell · From: Toledo Ohio USA

I really have gone to a single speaker enclosure .
I have a 10,12 or a 15 to use .
When I played Bass I used an Ampeg SVT 8-10 and the speakers lined up in an array in the cabinet. It seemed to really enhance the projection and tone .
Due to a lot of shallow stages depthwise I downsized to a 4X10 , then 2-12's, then finally the best setup I used was a single 15 monitor wedge and PA reinforcement for the room

Lee Baucum · From: McAllen, Texas (Extreme South) The Final Frontier

I have often wondered, will a boat with two 50hp motors go as fast as a boat with one 100hp motor? Will it go twice as fast as a boat with only one 50hp motor?

P Gleespen · From: Toledo, OH USA

Donny Hinson · From: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.

IMHO, more speakers gives you more presence, with all other factors equal. Volume seems greater, but that's usually just the result of greater/more even dispersion. Equal power spread among a bunch of speakers actually means less power to each, so though they're moving more air, they're not moving it as much. Therefore, short "throw" (or projection) may be much better, but long throw will suffer at the low end.

Having many smaller speakers is a good choice for improved mids and highs. But for really solid lows, nothing beats having just one or two huge speakers.

David Mason · From: Cambridge, MD, USA

I thought you already had an amp? Or two? Smile

(I mean, couldn't you just use the money to hire a kid to carry three or four of your other amps around? Inquiring minds want to know.... Very Happy

)

I personally prefer NO speaker distortion, I think it's an artifact of what was available at certain times - "Whoa, that's how Jimi got that sound" - if Jimi had had 300 watt Black Widows to mess with, he would've ended up using them, and figured out how to get his nasties elsewhere.

I don't mind abusing a 12AX7 for dirty fun or even juicing some 6V6's up to cruising speed, but philosophically I feel as though the less my tone depends on near-blowing stuff up, the better off I am - Remember, speakers have feelings too? Crying or Very sad

Dave Mudgett · From: Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee

Dave - I have played through one of the 1-12 combo versions of the Super Sonic amp. I liked it pretty well. The clean channel got a good old-style Fender sound, although not that much like an old BF Vibrolux Reverb, to my tastes. But this is significantly closer than the usual Blues/HotRod Deluxe/Deville and so on. The gain channels were also usable, although I generally prefer output-stage distortion to preamp distortion. I guess I always will prefer a nice old Fender amp, scaled correctly to the situation.

I think the difference between numbers of speakers is subtle but important. A single speaker sounds, to me, tighter and more focused - probably because it's a single near-point-source. A pair of speakers does lend a bit more "air" or "presence" to the sound - it's significantly different than a point-source, and speakers don't react exactly the same. I think that opens up the sound a bit. I find 2 speakers a bit louder, and also distributes both the sound and the load, hence gives a bit more headroom than a single speaker. Nowhere near double, but noticeable. I also note that these are gross generalizations - it also depends a lot on the amp and cabinet, and we could talk all day and night about cabinets alone.

For me, the turning issue on how many speakers to use is usually how much clear juice I need - or to put it another way - how much clear juice can I tolerate. Unlike David M., I like the sound of a good speaker pushed a bit. For something like blues guitar, the speaker is an important part of tone generation to me, and I like to push it a bit - not tons, but enough to give it a little edge. But for steel, I only like to push speakers just enough so they can - to use an over-used cliche - breathe properly. So, for me, if I'm playing with people who are sensitive to "too loud", I play through a single speaker to contain my stage volume. But if I'm playing with people who like to push hard, I prefer two speakers - usually 2-12". I generally find the sound holds up better that way if I'm forced to push.

I have certainly used tube amps with 4x12" cabs - old Marshall, Laney, Hi Watt, Peavey, a THD Flexi 50, even an old Dual Showman Reverb head, mostly for guitar, but also sometimes with steel. I can say unequivocally that no matter what it sounds like, the only way I'd ever be able to use one without getting thrown out of the band immediately would be on a very, very large stage where we were very far apart. YMMV, but many people I have worked with even cringe when they see me coming with a Twin Reverb. They argue that steel players are generally too bloody loud, and appreciate the fact that I try to scale to their level.

So to me, the whole thing is a matter of scaling the amp, cab, and speaker(s) to the level needed, and there is no "right" answer. That's why I have a variety of amps and speaker cabs. I wish I could get a way with a one-size-fits-all solution, but I can't. All IMHO, of course.

David Doggett · Posted 25 Mar 2007 11:47 am

Thanks, guys. D. Mason, yes I have several amps. When I started back playing pedal steel a couple of years ago, I geared up to play with a really loud rockabilly alt-country group. The two guitars played at rock club level with a maxed out Tweed Deluxe and SF Deluxe. My NV400 was just barely loud enough to keep up, and of course sounded terrible when pushed. I discovered the silver-face Twin family. Because I prefer 15" speakers, I ended up with a SF Dual Showman Reverb head, or a Super Twin Reverb head, with two 15" JBLs in separate Marrs cabs. Of course, if I stomped my volume pedal, I could blow away those Deluxes, and all of our ear drums. But I like to have plenty of reserve in my volume pedal throw for sustain, especially on slower numbers.

I also picked up a SF Princeton Reverb, for some acoustic jams I play pedal steel in.

But now I am looking for a medium volume amp. I started playing with a blues/fusion/free-jazz group. The Dual head and two 15s are usually more than I need with them. They tend to play really small bars, or larger clubs and festivals, where the amps are miked. Also, I think I prefer 12" speakers for this type music. I have a 30 watt Peavey Delta Blues. But I'm not crazy about the tone (clean or dirty); and it is a little underpowered for the low strings on my uni when I want to play clean. So I'm thinking I need something in the 50 watt range, with one or two 12s. It needs to be able to play clean for the jazz, but some dirt would be nice for the blues. The clean tone is more important than a dirty channel, because I have a Seymour Duncan Twin Tube box that gives me a wide variety of good dirty tones with any clean amp. The Super-Sonic's dual clean and dirty channels look interesting on paper. I like the convenience of a head, for the weight issue, and because I like to have it sitting next to me for tweaking. I'm sure the 2x12 cab is all I need. But seeing the other options, I just got to wondering what it would sound like playing through a half stack or even a full stack. I mean here's this 50 watt rock amp that can purchased with one speaker, two, four, or eight. I just got to wondering what the heck the difference would be?

Charlie McDonald · From: out of the blue

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

I use a single speaker sometimes, but it's usually a result of laziness on my part. I always prefer a couple of speakers, preferably speakers of different types. I like a Celestion type mated with a JBL type for pretty much all styles. For weight, I'd go with a neo speaker with a D-120 or K-120 (alnico vs. Ceramic), as long as you aren't pumping a lot of power at it.

My two favorite speaker cabs have: 1X12" Celestion neo plus 1X12" JBL D-120, and the other: 1X12" JBL E-120 plus 2X10" THD Longhorn (made by Celestion).

Using multiple dissimilar speakers gives a bigger, more 'dimensional' sound. Using a single speaker of multiple of the same gives a sound that's 'tighter',
'more focused'. I usually like the fatter sound.

Dan Tyack · From: Olympia, WA USA

Oh yeah,

In terms of 'stacks' I personally don't care for the sound of 4X12" closed back cabs. They sound boxy to my ears. Now I have played through both of the cabs described above simultaneously (2X10" + 3X12") and that sounded really huge through my VHT power amp (90 watss a side), But I wouldn't subject that kind of volume to anybody.
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Jim Sliff · From: Lawndale California, USA

David - I suggest you do a bit of research on impedance matching via series/parallel and mixed. All sounds are not equal (even when the inpedance is matched correctly), and it really varies depending on cabinet, volume, transformer saturation etc.

As far as the number of speakers, you will always increase headroom slightly by increasing the air movement mass. You're not driving things as hard to create what sounds like the same volume (even though the actual decibel level may be the same, more cubic inches of air moved = more apparent volume...so you can run things cooler with more headroom).

One thing I always suggest in a 4-speaker (or more) configuration is a mix of types - two alnico with two ceramic, or two medium-power handling with two high power. You'll bring out a much more full, rich sound using speakers that naturally react differently and that enhance different frequencies. The same holds true even for 2x10 and 2x12 setups - speaker mixes can make for some great tones.

For rock playing, though, I would go with the minimum- one speaker rated very close to the maximum power of the amp. That'll get you the best grind and smooth speaker breakup - 4 or 6 speakers will give you a wall of sound, but it's going to be REAL clean.
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