I am very disappointed in steel guitar conventions and shows

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 20 Mar 2007 10:04 am

Well, part of the original topic was the question of why so many steels are being sold now. This is rather curious considering the scant use of the instrument in popular music of any kind, even country. Except for the blip of RR on the cult jam band circuit, steel has decreased visibility over the past few decades. There may be several factors contributing to the increased buying of steels recently. The ongoing national and regional steel conventions are a factor. Another major factor is the internet. The Forum itself is a huge promotional tool (I would hope steel manufacturers support it with financial contributions and advertisements). Also, simply the ability to search the web and find manufacturer sites helps promote sales. Back when I started in the '70s there were few or no steels in music stores. You had to somehow discover and travel to one of the few manufacturers to see samples and purchase one. The price drop is a definite factor. New steels today cost half or a third as much in inflation adjusted dollars as they did in the '70s. And, through the internet, used ones can easily be found for 1/4 or less of the '70s new price. So now pre-baby-boomer retirees with time to spare, and baby-boomers with well paying jobs can easily find and afford the dream steels they remember from the golden years of pedal steel (late '50s - '70s).

This raises the question of how to use this increased presence of steel as a sort of cult instrument for a certain segment of the older population to somehow jumpstart increased interest in the younger population.

I don't know of any models from other instruments. Steel will never rival guitar, because there are no promininet steelers in popular music the way there are guitarists. A different model is the one of pianos and horns. Parents enroll kids in these lessons and in school bands. After learning the basics for classical music and band music, the kids then transfer the knowledge to play their own music with these instruments. Somehow I don't see that ever happening with steel. If anything is going to happen, we will have to invent our own model.

Steel seems to be welcome among the niche of amateur and semi-pro musicians playing retro styles from previous decades (blues, rock, alt-country, swing, jazz, etc.). There are a number of us on the Forum doing some of that. But frankly, that audience is not very young, and the venues tend to be small and not very lucrative. I don't know that this type of stuff is really going anywhere in terms of reaching the really young crowd.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 20 Mar 2007 10:20 am

Earnest Bovine wrote:
Brint Hannay wrote: Bach wrote "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" over three hundred years ago.
In the interest of edifying the steel guitar community, and general nitpicking, I must point out that altho Bach used the tune in his Cantata BWV 147, the composer was Johann Schop, and it is more recent than 300 years.

You're right, of course--more like 260-290 years--and I never knew that about Schop.
Boy, do I have egg on my face.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2007 10:39 am

"Which instruments have died out exactly? "

Let's start a list:

There's the Viola Da Gamba, the harpsichord, the mandolin was almost in extinction before Bill Monroe after being one of the most popular instruments at the turn of the century. The Theremin.

Most of the instruments played at the time of Beethoven and Mozart have been replaced - their modern cousins sounding much different. The zither and autoharp. Non pedal steel died out for a real long time.

The National Steel guitar was dead for decades. Must be a lot more.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 20 Mar 2007 10:51 am

We are getting away from the topic guys. What are each and everyone of you doing to introduce the steel guitar to young people?

We need some emo steelers.

Maybe a steel reality show? "Americas next top steeler". we could start putting bars and fingerpicks in the cereal boxes? get "Way to Survive" on the next Tony Hawk video game soundtrack?

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 20 Mar 2007 10:52 am

Bill, looking over your list I don't see any instrument that actually has died out! Refinements of instruments surely don't count--You could say the Bigsby pedal steel has almost died out, but what would that mean? The pedal steel in general is still with us. Zither, autoharp, mandolin, harpsichord, non-pedal steel, National steel guitar all still exist and are played. You actually make my point.

The only one that qualifies is the viola da gamba, and aside from the fact that early music, "authentic instrument" performers use it, the cello can be regarded as such a close relative that, for all intents and purposes, the instrument effectively survives.

Okay, the Theremin I don't know about. But you could hardly say it ever actually "lived".

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 20 Mar 2007 11:01 am

theremin is still in use.
Jon Spencer (Pussy galore, Boss Hog, JSBE) toured with one thru the nineties.
The DIY kits to make em are becoming popular..and then of course there was Jimmy Page......but that was centuries ago

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 20 Mar 2007 11:04 am

In the interest of edifying the steel guitar community, and general nitpicking, I must point out that altho Bach used the tune in his Cantata BWV 147, the composer was Johann Schop, and it is more recent than 300 years.

Actually, to the extent that the melody was written by Schop, that would place its composition well over 300 years ago, as it was first published in 1642.

However, the melody Bach used in BWV 147 (1723, 284 years ago) may have taken Schop's melody as a starting point, but differs from it significantly--and the descant, I believe, is Bach's own work.

Bill Fuentes · Post by **Bill Fuentes** » 20 Mar 2007 11:09 am

I'll try a more novel approach, Tonight I'll actually ask my kid who is 12 about these topic questions, she still doesn't know that much about steel guitar yet, and only went to her first steel show last week.

I'm sure her first response will be "I dunno".

She has a iPod full of every kind of music on the planet (with very, very, very limited rap/ hip hop and death metal etc.. she has a couple of songs like that because one should always be curious about what makes some music popular)

But hark--- why does she have Ernest Tubb, Webb Pierce, Bob Wills, Buck Owens etc. or any country, Jazz, classical artist for that matter on that jukebox.............. because of her old man that's why. She wouldn't have a clue who these and many more musicians were and are unless I take the time to expose her to them (no arm twisting though, just let them listen themselves and maybe explain for example who John Coltrane was and maybe who influenced him, but I would never say "If you don't dig that, your out of the loop"). With that said, she also educates me the same way, I listen to what music she thinks is good!

She and I have had long discussions about where (in this case) Country music came from, where it is today, and where it might be going.

Recent Steel shows and TSGA meetings not withstanding, she hasn't seen much steel anywhere, and even less anyone under 50 years old playing one. She did say one thing that kinda hit home after the Dallas show, she wondered if there would even be a show that big in 10 years, because of her observation of the average age of most the attendees I assume.

It's gonna be okay, just play!

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2007 11:18 am

"Bill, looking over your list I don't see any instrument that actually has died out! "

Well it depends on your defination of died out. Mandolin had for all intents and purposes died out. National Steels were not made for 50 years. Harpsichord used to be the primary instrument, now it is a museum piece.

Certainly instruments like the mandolin and national steel where saved from complete obscurity by one individual. If that individual had not been around, they would have been dead. Not in the sense that they didn't exist or there weren't a few souls that played them, but died out as far as being a thriving music making machine and not a historical novelty. I know a guy who plays the Hurdy Gurdy. Doesn't mean it isn't a dead instrument. Outside of David Lindly, who was playing non pedal steel on popular recordings outside of the last few years.

Will the pedal steel always remain with it's players. Yes. Will it be a thriving growing instrument? Jury is still out on that.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 20 Mar 2007 11:26 am

Outside of David Lindly, who was playing non pedal steel on popular recordings outside of the last few years.

Pink Floyd

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 20 Mar 2007 11:30 am

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 20 Mar 2007 11:34 am

Outside of David Lindly, who was playing non pedal steel on popular recordings outside of the last few years.

Oh, maybe Junior Brown, David Gilmour, Steve Howe, Ben Harper, Cindy Cashdollar, Al Perkins, Joe Perry, Chris Darrow, Darick Campbell......

Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 20 Mar 2007 11:35 am

BoB ... you may close this topic.

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 20 Mar 2007 11:37 am

I'll join Mr R on the veranda for a mint julep.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 20 Mar 2007 11:38 am

...Jerry Douglas, Dan Dugmore, Rob Ickes (yeah-electric lap/non-pedal along with dobro), Ry Cooder.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2007 11:40 am

Jim,

I said outside of the last few years and popular recordings. Cindy was in a revival band and hardly played on anyone top 100 list. I would say the same applies for everyone else on your list. The Campbell brothers and Ben Harper have only been recording in the last few years. I was speaking of popular recordings in the 60's, 70's, 80's and 90's.

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2007 11:43 am

Ry Cooder does not play lap steel. Please tell me which hit Jerry, and Rob played lap steel on in the 90's, 80's, 70's, 60's....

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 20 Mar 2007 12:23 pm

I guess my point of view may differ from some others, in that I don't really care if steel is used on hit recordings. Almost none of the music I really like since the Sixties (rock/pop) or Eighties (country) has been remotely "popular". I only care if it's good.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 20 Mar 2007 12:29 pm

Brint Hannay wrote:
In the interest of edifying the steel guitar community, and general nitpicking, I must point out that altho Bach used the tune in his Cantata BWV 147, the composer was Johann Schop, and it is more recent than 300 years.
Actually, to the extent that the melody was written by Schop, that would place its composition well over 300 years ago, as it was first published in 1642.

However, the melody Bach used in BWV 147 (1723, 284 years ago) may have taken Schop's melody as a starting point, but differs from it significantly--and the descant, I believe, is Bach's own work.

Thanks, Brint, I did not know that. I really should do more research beyond a quick look at Wikipedia before posting this stuff. In fact until a couple of days ago I thought Bach wrote the whole thing. Now let me see if I can play it on the steel guitar.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 20 Mar 2007 12:34 pm

Ben Jones wrote: We need some emo steelers.

OK, tomorrow at Hotel Cafe in Hollywood I will haul my steel in the rain to play with a guy who sounds emo to me. I wonder if he sounds emo to himself.

Mark Eaton · Post by **Mark Eaton** » 20 Mar 2007 12:35 pm

Bill McCloskey wrote:Ry Cooder does not play lap steel. Please tell me which hit Jerry, and Rob played lap steel on in the 90's, 80's, 70's, 60's....

Whoops, sorry...read your post wrong-about the "outside of the last few years part." My mistake.

But, your sentence about Ry is a little too definite, Bill, in declaring that he does NOT play lap steel.

Do you have the album that he made previous to Chavez Ravine, with Cuban guitarist Manuel Galban, "Mambo Sinuendo?"

Ry Cooder DOES play lap steel.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 20 Mar 2007 12:36 pm

(Earnest Bovine)In fact until a couple of days ago I thought Bach wrote the whole thing.

Until today, when I googled Schop after you tweaked me on it, so did I.

Now let me see if I can play it on the steel guitar.

From what I've heard here on the Forum, I'm betting you can.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 20 Mar 2007 1:30 pm

We need some emo steelers.

OK, tomorrow at Hotel Cafe in Hollywood I will haul my steel in the rain to play with a guy who sounds emo to me. I wonder if he sounds emo to himself.

do either of you have this haircut? if not I dont think the kids will be won over....

Bill McCloskey · Post by **Bill McCloskey** » 20 Mar 2007 2:02 pm

Yes we all love lap steel and we all collect the rare recordings that were made because they are drink to a thirsty man.

My point is that lap steel production dropped off completely, for the most part, after the early 60's. Lap steel used to be a VERY popular instrument whose influence both as a musical force and as an economic force (i.e. viable as an instrument that manufactures could sell in volumes adequate to produce) was gone after the advent of the pedal steel. We are reliving a revival currently, but it has been 40 years in the making and I still can't walk into my local music store and buy a new lap steel. For that matter, I can't buy a new pedal steel either. 40 years without a manufacturer is in essence a dead instrument. Pedal Steel will likely go the same way after the 50+ crowd begins to die off.

Is it a living instrument when the only recognizable tune using it is Sleepwalk?

Eugene Cole · Post by **Eugene Cole** » 20 Mar 2007 2:22 pm

I am a 40-something and when I refer to kids in this post I mean people that are considerably younger than I am. Basically 2.8 seconds to 28 years in post-birth chronological age.

Steel guitar conventions are and have been outside the realm of my budget for as long as I can remember. I can recall numerous times when I was chatting with Winnie (Julian) Winston about the grand fun he had at the St. Louis convention. I was simply not financially secure enough (much less “flush”) to go to that convention. So I lived it vicariously and with some envy through his stories.

My mother however took me to music festival as a child and as a teen. I can recall laughing at certain people that would walk-away when Hot Rize came on stage; but would stay for a Red Knuckles and the Trailblazers set because they didn’t like that Newgrass junk. Why did they not like it? Well the banjo player used a WAH pedal and… well I laughed then and I still laugh. There people that think that to this day think that Hot Rize and Red Knuckles and the Trailblazers were staffed with the same musicians. I’ll not tell you which party I am with on this monumental topic, but if they were to tour together again I would stay for both sets. I also was introduced to the music of Berlioz, Django Reinhardt, John Prine, Steve Goodman, and some teenaged kid named Jerry Douglas. The first time I saw Jerry Douglas play I thought that I wanted to be Jerry. I had to find the Steel playing of Jerry Garcia and Jerry Byrd on my own. I had to ask to be exposed to uncle Dave Macon’s banjo playing. But I had the oportunity to discover and learn about uncle Dave Macon.

I think that everyone that plays Steel around others is an Ambassador to the instrument. I am on the Alembic guitar owners’ forum (which is primarily comprised of Bass guitarists) and just last week some twenty-something guy wrote that they just did not get the point of Steel guitar. So I wrote an email which explained that the changes were linear instead of incremental and that linear changes created a distinct collection of complex harmonics. I also explained what the A&B pedals on a PSG do and how they allowed an I-IV or an I-vi chord change. Basically just a teaser with a little chord theory thrown in. Then I told him check out Lucky Oceans MySpace page (young kids seem to understand what they can do on MySpace.com) and listen to the track he has available there. A day or so later I got an email from this guy in which indicated that he understood what makes Steel guitar distinct and even indicated some interest in trying out a PSG some day. So demonstrating Steel guitar even via email and MP3 referral can be done with success.

While many kids want flash. Most kids want praise and encouragement. Kids that lack opportunities will surely not excel in the things for which they have no chance to learn. Praise and oportunity are the bridge-drugs to many success stories.

I do not see steel guitar dying in fact Ben Harper alone has probably eradicated any chance that I ever had of owning an original Weisenborn Steel Guitar; I will build one for myself one of these days so that is OK with me. But if the interest in these guitars which he has injected in to the youth culture continues to grow he may also be the catalyst which leads to modern “Student” versions of these guitars. The electric resophonics are getting exposure in the hands of groups like Aerosmith. I’ll grant you that Aerosmith is now more than “like so 20 minutes ago.”

But every so often a “RETRO” fad comes along and breaths new life in to the things which had faded in popularity for a while.

I hear and see kids that like listening to music listening to blues frequently. The kids that do not like to listen to music listen to Rap and Hip-Hop instead.

The kids that are listening to blues are seldom listening to Bessie Smith, Lightnin Hopkins, Bukka White or B.B. King; they seem to prefer to listen to more contemporary artists. But Blues is also alive, well, and enjoyed by a substantial number of people in the U.S. youth culture.

The kids that listen to Jazz tend to be players, musicians, and/or just plain avante garde.

I am going out to hear Bryan Bowers tonight. He will probably be playing Guitar, Mandocello, and Autoharp (a new-fangled kinda Zither). I know that several kids will be in the audience and will be glad that they are. The kids in the audience at Bryan’s concert tonight are privileged to have parents that think that music is important and are able to give the kids the opportunity to hear a variety of music.

My question is how can anyone walk in to a public School and ask for direct contact with a group of youths so that they can expose them to instruments which the faculty has never heard of... and not end up with a restraining order keeping me from doing just that. LOL

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I am very disappointed in steel guitar conventions and shows

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Exposing the young to Steel and PSG