I am very disappointed in steel guitar conventions and shows

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 19 Mar 2007 11:36 pm

Brint Hannay wrote: Buddy Emmons playing "Way to Survive" will never die out as long as there are people.

Seriously, I don't know why I say seriously, as I am always completely serious, but Buddy played it forty-something years ago and IMO nobody has improved on it in forty-some years of steel guitar conventions. Buddy has moved on and so, perhaps, should we.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 19 Mar 2007 11:51 pm

Earnest, I think you misunderstood me. (In fact, you misquoted me by omission--why did you leave out Mozart and Coltrane?) Admittedly, I chose BE playing WTS deliberately, a little bit tongue in cheek, since WTS is bandied about as a favorite whipping boy by the progressive school (along with Red River Valley).

Buddy played it forty-something years ago and IMO nobody has improved on it in forty-some years of steel guitar conventions.

I won't disagree with you there.

I was trying to say quality music of whatever stripe has no expiration date. Bach wrote "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" over three hundred years ago. Should we "move on"?

Jamie Lennon · Post by **Jamie Lennon** » 20 Mar 2007 3:26 am

start em young

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 20 Mar 2007 4:16 am

I think Jamie's right.
But a parent can only offer opportunities to a child.
Pianos and guitars get bought, kids learn something on them that will last for life, but there's no guarantee that playing the instrument will last more than a couple of years. Those instruments are competing with steels for space in the home. Pianos become heirlooms, passed on, or sold. So it goes.

A pedal steel display in a mall--it might reduce, in the youngster's eyes, the cool of the instrument and put it in the same category as piano or organ, to them.

And hip hop just doesn't fit steel guitar. (But then, there's nothing appropriate about hiphop.)
Maybe it is an older person's instrument. I've heard the sound all my life, loved it, wanted it, but had to wait til I was 50+ to make a personal commitment and priortise the funds to do it.

I showed a young, talented musician the steel, and let him at it like I did my keyboard, on which years earlier he made fantastic sounds. He didn't gravitate to it; it seems inaccessible to many, I suppose.
It's a hard row to hoe, and Robert Randolph can't do it alone.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 20 Mar 2007 5:47 am

it's like sitting in a football stadium watching quarterbacks and receivers running passing drills for three hours, instead of watching a football game.

That's a terrific analogy Brint!

It's hard to describe it any better than that - again, I admittedly have never been to one, but have seen videos of performances, whole shows, crowd "walka around" videos...and it's like the whole playing aspect isn't "real" - it's either "look at what I can do" or "look at him do what he did 50 years ago...again...". I've seen exactly one video that I thought was more "real" as far as "guitarists" (and I will lump steel, electric 6-string, flatpickers etc in to one group for this) go - a Peavy room show by four steel players and a backup band (no canned Band in a Box stuff) that turned into a freindly head-cutting session. THAT'S a jam. That brings out the best as far as instrumental playing - no canned solos, no "and now I'll play my solo from Snidley Farnsworth's 1962 hit "(fill in the blank), and nobody playing to try to peddle instruments either.

Bill McRoberts · Post by **Bill McRoberts** » 20 Mar 2007 6:08 am

Dana I beleive you hit it right on the head.

Having a seven year old son who has a natural talent as a drummer. I'll have him play a couple of song on my show set. I can relate first hand to attending shows and the cost involved(especially monday mornings). Plus the long boring time one his age endures through the rest of a show. On a possitive note, I know he will always appreciate the steel guitar and real un-canned music. He also has his own picks and bar and shows interest in playing lap steel as a second instrument.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 20 Mar 2007 6:22 am

Jim, Ive only been to one steel show thus far.
No one was playing to sell anything as far as i could tell. There was no canned music, in fact the backup band had Hag's old guitarist (sorry Im bad with names) and he all but stole the show with some amazing playing of his own. The problem, for me at least , is that whenever you have instrumentals that "showcase" an instrument, it tends to become more about the technicality of the instrument than the MUSIC, and for me that makes neither good art nor good entertainment. I'd rather hear some tasteful steel in a good song than a whole room full of steelers playing WTS all night (btw WTS was played by no less than four different performers at this show)..but thats what records and concerts are for. Some of the great players manage to elevate their performances at these events to the level of art, but for the most part for me its less of a musical performance and more of a "trade show".

Jim you go to guitar shows yes? (Ive never been to one). Sometimes they'll have a guy like Satriani there to play right? Is it similar to what i described above? I ask because i dont know, but I imagine it would be.

Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 20 Mar 2007 6:31 am

I am making a commitment today to take my pedal steel to the kindergarten class in my town. I will contact the teacher for a time frame. I will play songs that they know like "Happy Birthday", Twinkle twinkle little star" etc. I will feel a litle stupid doing it but I will do it.

Will anyone else here take up the challenge?

Don

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 20 Mar 2007 6:38 am

it tends to become more about the technicality of the instrument than the MUSIC

Yes - and when talking about the "canned" music I was talking about smaller show/jams where that stuff is used, at least that's what I had heard.

As far as guitar shows - there aren't any, at least in SoCal. I think guitar is so omnipresent there's really no need. The closest thing would be the plethora of vintage guitar shows - but those are dealer shows, primarily for them to BUY instruments from naive people walking in the door with Uncle Bob's "old guitar" - the selling prices posted are usually higher than vintage price books! And there are rarely any appearances by players, as there's no stage and the volume would kill the buying/selling process.

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 20 Mar 2007 6:59 am

Back to one of the original questions......if there are very few young people taking up steel, who is buying all of these guitars?

Like vegtables, steel guitar is an aquired taste with regard to kids. As they grow older and begin to mature, they (granted I'm generalizing) become bored with two & three chords, and begin to look for other music that is more complex and substantial.

I think it's the same with steel. How many guitarists has taken up pedal (or non) steel? I think it's difficult for a young kid to learn the steel, especially if they cannot relate to it popularity wise. After some years of music experience & a foundation of knowledge, it seems that's when people are taking it up.

So, I don't think that steel is dying, I believe that the majority of those taking up the instrument are in their 30s & 40s as they're better prepared both mentally & musically.

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 20 Mar 2007 7:11 am

I don't get out to shows and such (I'd like to, though). I will offer up this short take on kids and steel guitar: Years ago, in the infancy of steel guitar on the mainland, parents sort of forced kids, or at least signed kids up for steel guitar lessons. there were a lot of basic learning materials available. That opportunity really doesn't exist anymore.

The good thing is that people who take up steel guitar (usually adults) do so by choice. Unfortunately, I think when we're younger we're more ripe for the learning. This is why you see guitarists and other other musicians taking up the steel and sticking with it--a lot of the musical foundation has already been established and they can concentrate on the techniques of playing.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 20 Mar 2007 7:20 am

All this concern about steel dying out...Gee, if we don't pitch it to the kids in their musical lingo, the instrument will die out like the...well, like...hmmm...Which instruments have died out exactly?

The instrument is a tool. People will use it to express themselves if they are so inclined. Like any instrument (actually more than many), steel can be used for nearly any style of musical expression, the parameters being set by the player's taste and imagination.

If young people want to play steel in whatever style(s) of music they're into, they will. If they don't do so in large numbers, so what? There are a lot of musical instruments that are played by only a few people. I wonder if bassoon players fret about their instrument dying out?

Jeremiah Hanley · Post by **Jeremiah Hanley** » 20 Mar 2007 7:47 am

There has been a lot of good statements, solutions,and a few sour notes. But the steel guitar is the center of all of this discusion. What Dana had to say about her 12 year old, Austin, is right on target. He can sit along with the best of players and play as good as anybody you want to hear. Not only does he play at shows but I've sat with him at 3 jam sessions and he takes his turn like everybody else and does a superb job. He does as good on songs he's never played before almost as good as the ones he's practiced on. You've got to hand it to his loving mother and father who have the patience to listen to their son practice for hours learning new licks. Then to experience parental pride as he performs on stage to the amazement of the listeners. Now, let's don't forget Grandpa Jerry, his mentor, and no-doubt hero, who has invested lots of time and interest in seeing this youngster mature to an awesome player. His little brother is learning the piano. I told the 2 brothers to blend their talents together in practice and fun. I agree it's a very expensive instrument but I believe the money is well invested when parents, grandparents, and others help finance this endeavor!

Bill McRoberts · Post by **Bill McRoberts** » 20 Mar 2007 7:50 am

Perhaps...... I played Bassoon through high school.
Don't anymore. I rented it through the school music program.
Would'nt it be nice if the steel guitar was made that available?

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Mar 2007 7:54 am

...it tends to become more about the technicality of the instrument than the MUSIC...

I suppose that's true, but technicality is, I believe, normally the follow-up to the simple stuff of most famous licks and riffs. Few guitar intros are as memorable as Luther Perkins' "I Walk The Line", or Brian Jones' "Satisfaction". But these are, after all, dirt-simple things that a 10 year-old can do with aplomb. For people who like just simple music, simple music is perfectly fine. But for people who like more complexity, the technical aspects become more and more dominant, and in some cases, actually surpass the melody and message of the song that's being executed. When "The Bird" played a solo, it wasn't the song that was important, but what he could do with that song!

I've often heard the remark..."So-and-so can get more feeling out of one note that what's-his-name can out of 50." That argument, IMHO, is apples and oranges...point of view, so to speak. (And sometimes, "sour grapes".) Each musician gets his feeling expressed in his own way, some with 1 note, and some with 50. Neither is intrinsically right or wrong. I know players who play 1 note with zero feeling, and players who can play 50 notes with terrific feeling.

In the end, both simplicity and wizardry can be art forms, it just depends on who's doing the playing.

Brint Hannay · Post by **Brint Hannay** » 20 Mar 2007 7:56 am

I played Bassoon through high school.
Don't anymore. I rented it through the school music program.
Would'nt it be nice if the steel guitar was made that available?

Yes.

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 20 Mar 2007 8:21 am

Donny, by techincal I did not mean simple or complex. I agree with you, one note or a thousand, both are equally valid as long as it serve the music.
By technical i meant it was more a display of ones prowess on the instrument than a soulful emotive expression thru that instrument.

Here is a video example of the worst (IMHO) kind of flash (techincality) over substance. This is John Petrucci at a guitar show, playing to canned music. Technically masterful (nice arpeggios dude) but I find it absolutely unlistenable. Jim Sliff this is what I was talking about at guitar shows a few posts up. The one steel show I went to was thankfully not this kind of wankery.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-D_Gu18 ... ed&search=

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 20 Mar 2007 8:56 am

Ben - Hmm, actually John Petrucci is one of my favorite Progressive Rock guitarists. One of the few great technical players who also plays with recognizable structure and has great emotion in his playing. Not to mention an absoilutely stellar Prog-Rock guitar tone (also teaches in seminars at Guitar Institute of Technology). What kind of "guitar show" was this at? There ARE manufacturer's demos at guitar stores and such using canned backup - but not shows like the Steel shows, at least that I've ever heard of - maybe in other regions of the country, but it must not be very common.

But if it was at a show and I was there, I'd sit and watch him for a set...and probably tape it if I could. I find it both technically great AND full of substance and feeling. That just goes to show you there are different tastes. You can't listen to that - I can't listen to 2 country steelers trading parts on some 40 year old tune. It's all relative.

What he's playing is the "shred" style that has some meaning, meter changes, and thought behind it, rather than the mindless "by-rote" playing of classical pieces by Yngwie Malmsteen, or the speed metal style combined with what's known as "sweep picking" on 6-string. Now THAT would be a "good" example of "bad" guitar IMO. 9 zillion notes in 30 seconds does not always qualify as "good" guitar playing. If you read interviews with Petrucci, you find him rather serious, thoughtful, and not striving for purely technical playing.

Steve Morse does a lot of similar playing to Petrucci, and then will play a chicken' pickin' tune next.

Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 20 Mar 2007 9:06 am

We are getting away from the topic guys. What are each and everyone of you doing to introduce the steel guitar to young people?

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 20 Mar 2007 9:12 am

What are each and everyone of you doing to introduce the steel guitar to young people?

Does having a 9-year-old carry my guitar and amp from the car to the gig count?

Sorry, I couldn't resist... Back to the topic, please.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 20 Mar 2007 9:20 am

Brint Hannay wrote:Earnest, I think you misunderstood me. (In fact, you misquoted me by omission--why did you leave out Mozart and Coltrane?)

Sorry; you're right; I did omit those because I feel differently about that music. To my taste, Mozart's & Coltrane's music are more substantial than A Way To Survive. But even then, I suppose I would want to "move on" if several steel players at every show for the last 40 years had played Coltrane's solo from Giant Steps.

C. Christofferson · Post by **C. Christofferson** » 20 Mar 2007 9:20 am

Consider the 'delayed reaction' phenomenon. The more young people are exposed to the steel and what it is and does, the more those people are going to take it up when they reach an older age, even though they might not have even thought about it for decades. (i'm describing myself).

My site

Don Benoit · Post by **Don Benoit** » 20 Mar 2007 9:30 am

Good answer C. Christofferson

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 20 Mar 2007 9:30 am

Brint Hannay wrote: Bach wrote "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring" over three hundred years ago.

In the interest of edifying the steel guitar community, and general nitpicking, I must point out that altho Bach used the tune in his Cantata BWV 147, the composer was Johann Schop, and it is more recent than 300 years.

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 20 Mar 2007 9:40 am

Donny Hinson wrote: ... Brian Jones' "Satisfaction". But these are, after all, dirt-simple things that a 10 year-old can do with aplomb.

So simple, in fact, that Keith Richard had mastered it when I saw them at Arie Crown Theater in 1965.
(more nitpicking)