I was picking away at my steel this past Thursday night while jamming with a few friends and got my mind working overtime with all this SG forum conflab about the endless myriad of tunings that is needed/used/wished for; for the steel guitar. There has to be a better way to tune these things or an electronic device attachment so they work for almost all tunings in all musical scores without having to retune a dozen times a night.
Besides the steel: I play 6 string acoustic, bass guitar (both electric and stand up), chromatic 280 harmonica, the 48 super chord harmonica and embarrass myself on a sax. No one ever complains about these other instruments not having enough capacity. Nor do the players of these other instruments have this need to retune to a different tuning set up several times a night, just so they can grab a few extra in between notes and chords in a song. So why are steel guitarists so driven with this need?
Are we just too damned anxious with our needs to fit into every note that is possible to play in a song?
The Steel Guitar Impasse
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Les Anderson
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David L. Donald
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I think it is 2 reasons.
1) individuality
2) this instrument is so much more configurable than anything else,
that it ENCOURAGES experimentation
and it's worthy child individuality.
Some people truly decide to make it their own.
And then OTHERS decide to discuss that set-ups merits,
till the cows grow beards.
1) individuality
2) this instrument is so much more configurable than anything else,
that it ENCOURAGES experimentation
and it's worthy child individuality.
Some people truly decide to make it their own.
And then OTHERS decide to discuss that set-ups merits,
till the cows grow beards.
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!
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Charlie McDonald
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Right on, David. After I bought my MSA, it became mine--no longer a need to cling to what's politically and historically correct.
As to those guitar players, a steel player will never be able to keep up with their tunings. The more notes change, the more you have to lay out. That way, they'll think you have taste.
As to those guitar players, a steel player will never be able to keep up with their tunings. The more notes change, the more you have to lay out. That way, they'll think you have taste.
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons
The basic problem, IMHO, is that we have to play with a straight bar. Vocalists (the well-trained ones), violinists, woodwind players, etc. all make subtle adjustments on the fly for their intonation while playing. We can do that when we play single notes (or maybe two notes at a time), but when you get to 3 notes, you have very little leeway, if any, to make intonation adjustments to just one of those notes without affecting the others. Thus, we belabor the efforts at getting the best temper tuning up front, before we start playing. Of course, this was all worked out for keyboards in Bach's time, since they have zero capability to temper on the fly and the problem was miserable until it was solved with the 'Grand Compromise'.
p.s. I would add that 6-string players are notorious for retuning their guitars all night long because most of them don't really know how to achieve a decent tempered tuning that works in all positions and keys.
p.s. I would add that 6-string players are notorious for retuning their guitars all night long because most of them don't really know how to achieve a decent tempered tuning that works in all positions and keys.
Last edited by Jim Cohen on 26 Feb 2007 6:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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David Doggett
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I don't really understand the question (but true to form will blow some wind about it anyway 
). I tune today the same way I taught myself to tune the day I bought my first pedal steel. I take an E from a harmonica, keyboard or tuning meter and tune the rest of the strings and stops by playing chords and tuning the chords to sound nice. I don't consciously count beats or search for beatless, I just tune the chord to sound in tune to my ears (which is close to beatless if I really listen). According to b0b's recent poll, that's the way 80% of steelers tune, although some people have written out a chart of where their tuning falls on a meter, so they can tune to a meter if they are in a noisy situation where they can't hear themselves tune. Some people use the one-size-sort-of-fits-all Newman tuning chart or Peterson meter presets rather than figure out their own tuning, but that is very close to the same thing.
Once I have tuned my pedal and lever stops carefully at home, they are stable for a long time, over a month. So I don't usually tune them on a gig. At the start of a gig, I check the tuning of my open strings by ear or meter (as described above). Unless I have new strings that are still stretching (I try to change them ahead of time and play them until they are stable at home), I don't usually have to retune them the rest of the night, although I might check them at the start of each set. So I don't understand what all the retuning is you refer to.
According to the poll about 20% of steelers don't mess with ear tuning, and just tune everything straight up to a meter. I would imagine that, like me, once they have done that at the start of a gig, they don't need to retune again for the rest of the night, but they might check at the beginning of each set.
But the term "tuning" has two meanings. One refers to the method of acheiving proper intonation, as in tuning to Just Intonation (JI) by ear (as described above), or tuning to Equal Temper straight up to a meter, or somewhere in between. The other meaning of tuning is the notes you set your strings and pedal and lever stops to, the copedant. There are some standard tunings, such as E9 and C6 on pedal steel, and many more on lap steel. But there are infinite variations of those standards. Why is that?
The reason is that our music is based on a chromatic scale with 12 tones to an octave. But almost none of us have 12 strings to an octave. Of course you can move the bar to play single notes and get the whole chromatic scale. But we need to be able to play two or notes at once for harmony and chords. It's a straight bar - you can't bend it. Even ignoring the chromatic accidentals, there are 8 tones to an octave for either a major or minor scale. But we don't always have 8 strings to an octave. C6 has 5 strings to an octave. The standard 10-string E9 does have 8 strings and a full major scale in its middle octave. But with those notes you can only get certain "pure" chords: I, IIm, IIIm, IV, V, VIm, and a few others, V7, Imaj7, etc. If you need more complicated chords, you need more strings, or you need pedals and levers. Also, if you need something above or below the middle octave, there are limited notes there. So to get the extra chromatic notes that are needed, people start adding more strings or more pedal and lever changes.
But few people add enough to get the whole chromatic scale. You've only got two feet and two knees. And if you end up with 8 or more strings to an octave, like a harp, they get in the way of playing chords. You'd need a bar as long as your forearm, and a picking hand two or three times bigger than most of us have. So people just add enough strings and changes to get the chords they think they need for the type of music they play. There are a lot of differences of opinions about that, so people end up with different copedants. Even for people who are after the same chords and notes, there are differences of opinion about whether to get them with strings, raises or lowers, combined with other changes or split, etc. So this leads to a lot of variety and a lot of discussion. It's only natural. You have to work out some compromise between ease of getting the oft used simple pure chords and the ease of getting more notes for more complicated chords. It is a bit unique, but there is nothing wrong with this situation, and there is nothing wrong with our instrument - it's a source of fascination for some players.
Fretless strings and horns mostly play one note at a time, and have the whole chromatic scale. So they don't have this problem. Keyboards have the whole chromatic scale also. Guitars do have a similar problem. There is a standard tuning for guitar, but there are many variations. There is drop D tuning, modal tuning, and lots of open tunings to different chords and inversions. Slide guitar players have the same problem of a straight slide, and so use a variety of open tunings.
In spite of all this variety, for a given gig, most steelers do not retune to different copedants in the middle of a gig, unless you call using pedals and levers or switching necks retuning. So I'm still not sure I understand the original question.
). I tune today the same way I taught myself to tune the day I bought my first pedal steel. I take an E from a harmonica, keyboard or tuning meter and tune the rest of the strings and stops by playing chords and tuning the chords to sound nice. I don't consciously count beats or search for beatless, I just tune the chord to sound in tune to my ears (which is close to beatless if I really listen). According to b0b's recent poll, that's the way 80% of steelers tune, although some people have written out a chart of where their tuning falls on a meter, so they can tune to a meter if they are in a noisy situation where they can't hear themselves tune. Some people use the one-size-sort-of-fits-all Newman tuning chart or Peterson meter presets rather than figure out their own tuning, but that is very close to the same thing.Once I have tuned my pedal and lever stops carefully at home, they are stable for a long time, over a month. So I don't usually tune them on a gig. At the start of a gig, I check the tuning of my open strings by ear or meter (as described above). Unless I have new strings that are still stretching (I try to change them ahead of time and play them until they are stable at home), I don't usually have to retune them the rest of the night, although I might check them at the start of each set. So I don't understand what all the retuning is you refer to.
According to the poll about 20% of steelers don't mess with ear tuning, and just tune everything straight up to a meter. I would imagine that, like me, once they have done that at the start of a gig, they don't need to retune again for the rest of the night, but they might check at the beginning of each set.
But the term "tuning" has two meanings. One refers to the method of acheiving proper intonation, as in tuning to Just Intonation (JI) by ear (as described above), or tuning to Equal Temper straight up to a meter, or somewhere in between. The other meaning of tuning is the notes you set your strings and pedal and lever stops to, the copedant. There are some standard tunings, such as E9 and C6 on pedal steel, and many more on lap steel. But there are infinite variations of those standards. Why is that?
The reason is that our music is based on a chromatic scale with 12 tones to an octave. But almost none of us have 12 strings to an octave. Of course you can move the bar to play single notes and get the whole chromatic scale. But we need to be able to play two or notes at once for harmony and chords. It's a straight bar - you can't bend it. Even ignoring the chromatic accidentals, there are 8 tones to an octave for either a major or minor scale. But we don't always have 8 strings to an octave. C6 has 5 strings to an octave. The standard 10-string E9 does have 8 strings and a full major scale in its middle octave. But with those notes you can only get certain "pure" chords: I, IIm, IIIm, IV, V, VIm, and a few others, V7, Imaj7, etc. If you need more complicated chords, you need more strings, or you need pedals and levers. Also, if you need something above or below the middle octave, there are limited notes there. So to get the extra chromatic notes that are needed, people start adding more strings or more pedal and lever changes.
But few people add enough to get the whole chromatic scale. You've only got two feet and two knees. And if you end up with 8 or more strings to an octave, like a harp, they get in the way of playing chords. You'd need a bar as long as your forearm, and a picking hand two or three times bigger than most of us have. So people just add enough strings and changes to get the chords they think they need for the type of music they play. There are a lot of differences of opinions about that, so people end up with different copedants. Even for people who are after the same chords and notes, there are differences of opinion about whether to get them with strings, raises or lowers, combined with other changes or split, etc. So this leads to a lot of variety and a lot of discussion. It's only natural. You have to work out some compromise between ease of getting the oft used simple pure chords and the ease of getting more notes for more complicated chords. It is a bit unique, but there is nothing wrong with this situation, and there is nothing wrong with our instrument - it's a source of fascination for some players.
Fretless strings and horns mostly play one note at a time, and have the whole chromatic scale. So they don't have this problem. Keyboards have the whole chromatic scale also. Guitars do have a similar problem. There is a standard tuning for guitar, but there are many variations. There is drop D tuning, modal tuning, and lots of open tunings to different chords and inversions. Slide guitar players have the same problem of a straight slide, and so use a variety of open tunings.
In spite of all this variety, for a given gig, most steelers do not retune to different copedants in the middle of a gig, unless you call using pedals and levers or switching necks retuning. So I'm still not sure I understand the original question.
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David L. Donald
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Add to D. Dog's comment.
Some players are more chordal
and others more linear lick oriented.
Each aproach has different copedent demands.
Within each of these approaches come the demands
for differeing melodic content.
Very minor style'd gigs call for different copedents
than very major gigs.
So tending towards minor stuff, and bigger hip chords,
and parallel lines my copedent doesn't fit the norm.
But works for the logic I apply.
Of course others milage DOES vary.
Some players are more chordal
and others more linear lick oriented.
Each aproach has different copedent demands.
Within each of these approaches come the demands
for differeing melodic content.
Very minor style'd gigs call for different copedents
than very major gigs.
So tending towards minor stuff, and bigger hip chords,
and parallel lines my copedent doesn't fit the norm.
But works for the logic I apply.
Of course others milage DOES vary.
Last edited by David L. Donald on 26 Feb 2007 10:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many!
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Bob Hoffnar
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Bob Hoffnar
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Intonation help ?
Here is a link to an ear training CD I made a while back that I made this link for:
Intonation Help
Many conservatories use this method and quite a few of my students and others have found it helpful.
I'll bring a dozen with me to the Texas show if anybody wants one. I'll be over at the Rains booth.
Intonation Help
Many conservatories use this method and quite a few of my students and others have found it helpful.
I'll bring a dozen with me to the Texas show if anybody wants one. I'll be over at the Rains booth.
Bob
The whole idea of pedals was originally to change tunings quickly. Then Bud Isaacs had this idea about changing tunings while the strings were still ringing.
Any of the modern copedents can play almost any combination of notes. I personally have never felt "need to retune to a different tuning set up several times a night, just so they can grab a few extra in between notes and chords in a song."
Composers for standard guitar work within the limitations of the instrument, even while guitarists with monster hands push those limits. Few composers understand the potential of the pedal steel, so music written for steel has tended to "play it safe".
Any of the modern copedents can play almost any combination of notes. I personally have never felt "need to retune to a different tuning set up several times a night, just so they can grab a few extra in between notes and chords in a song."
Composers for standard guitar work within the limitations of the instrument, even while guitarists with monster hands push those limits. Few composers understand the potential of the pedal steel, so music written for steel has tended to "play it safe".
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Donny Hinson
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DWYCWYAWWYH
I think that was Teddy Roosevelt..."Do what you can, where you are, with what you have". You play whatever you have to the best of your imagination and ability. If there's something extra you feel you need to have, you can probably add it, and this is the primary benefit our instrument has over most others.
Some players want all the chords they can get, others want all the unique sounds and licks they can get, and still others simply see endless variations still unused with the simplest iterations. No one has mastered this thing yet, or even come close, even in the century-old, 6-string, no pedal version. There's so much "unexplored territory", and our own "Mozart" hasn't even come along yet!
I marvel at how far lead players have come in the last 30-40 years, and envision new steelers coming along that play steel like Tommy Emmanuel plays 6-string guitar!
As Jimmy Durante once said (and, much more recently, Bachman Turner Overdrive)..."You ain't seen nothin' yet!"
Some players want all the chords they can get, others want all the unique sounds and licks they can get, and still others simply see endless variations still unused with the simplest iterations. No one has mastered this thing yet, or even come close, even in the century-old, 6-string, no pedal version. There's so much "unexplored territory", and our own "Mozart" hasn't even come along yet!
I marvel at how far lead players have come in the last 30-40 years, and envision new steelers coming along that play steel like Tommy Emmanuel plays 6-string guitar!
As Jimmy Durante once said (and, much more recently, Bachman Turner Overdrive)..."You ain't seen nothin' yet!"Well Donny, you said a lot.
The Guitar has been mastered by several, such as Andres Segovia whose professional playing, like Yepes, Diaz, and a dozen others EASILY spanned 70 years. Not just bars and opening acts either. 70 PLUS years. They read music for their instrument the first day they played in public, and knew how to tune it specifically probably about the same time.
Then there's Ravi Shankar and HUNDREDS of East Indian musicians that attained a mastery of their instruments.
The Pedal Steel Guitar has not been around enough to have any more than a dozen players string together 50 years of beer joints, with some good records and concerts along the way..
Accepting a Standard Tuning Method is a precursor to being taken seriously enough to begin to be recognized by the rest of the Musical Community, and obviously it hasn't happened yet.
60-80 years from then, there'll be an Andres Segovia, or Narcisco Yepes..
As far as individuals not feeling good about "getting out there" and playing in public with other instruments..
There are always more excuses not to than to...
Typing on the Internet is a contender..
I can quote my Friend from Nashville by saying "Just tune the &*(%ing thing and play it....
I've run out of excuses today. Time to plug in the tele.
EJL
The Guitar has been mastered by several, such as Andres Segovia whose professional playing, like Yepes, Diaz, and a dozen others EASILY spanned 70 years. Not just bars and opening acts either. 70 PLUS years. They read music for their instrument the first day they played in public, and knew how to tune it specifically probably about the same time.
Then there's Ravi Shankar and HUNDREDS of East Indian musicians that attained a mastery of their instruments.
The Pedal Steel Guitar has not been around enough to have any more than a dozen players string together 50 years of beer joints, with some good records and concerts along the way..
Accepting a Standard Tuning Method is a precursor to being taken seriously enough to begin to be recognized by the rest of the Musical Community, and obviously it hasn't happened yet.
60-80 years from then, there'll be an Andres Segovia, or Narcisco Yepes..
As far as individuals not feeling good about "getting out there" and playing in public with other instruments..
There are always more excuses not to than to...
Typing on the Internet is a contender..
I can quote my Friend from Nashville by saying "Just tune the &*(%ing thing and play it....
I've run out of excuses today. Time to plug in the tele.
EJL
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Mike Perlowin
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The problem isn't that players, it's that the 6 string guitar inherently has intonation problems.Jim Cohen wrote:
... 6-string players are notorious for retuning their guitars all night long because most of them don't really know how to achieve a decent tempered tuning that works in all positions and keys.
These have been solved by such innovations as the Buzz Feiten system and the Earvana tuning nut.
https://www.earvana.com/
Please visit my web site and Soundcloud page and listen to the music posted there.
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin
http://www.mikeperlowin.com http://soundcloud.com/mike-perlowin
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Charlie McDonald
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Donny Hinson
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Eric, IMHO, I don't think the tuning has much to do with how other musicians look upon us. I feel it's more like..."How good are you at your instrument and at music in general". I think that if you were a really great player and musician, you'd be accepted. Of course, the myriad of tunings and iterations we bandy about might make it harder for us to do that, but that's only from our point of view.Eric West wrote: Accepting a Standard Tuning Method is a precursor to being taken seriously enough to begin to be recognized by the rest of the Musical Community...
I also feel that "mastering" an instrument is more than mastering a single style, technique, or type of music on that instrument. IMHO, a true master is someone who can do it all; sight read "cold" copy, who knows music theory backward and forward, who can play virtually any style (near impeccably), and who also doesn't take 50 years to do it.
(Oh yeah, and I hope I live to see someone do it on steel or pedal steel.)
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Pete Burak
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It seems like RR is the "Musical Communities" current Pedal Steel god (Jerry Gar being the original?), and often times his tuning is all over the map.
Go figure?!
RR will be here in Portland next Thursday. Cool!
http://www.mcmenamins.com/index.php?loc ... ntid=47376
Go figure?!
RR will be here in Portland next Thursday. Cool!
http://www.mcmenamins.com/index.php?loc ... ntid=47376
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Kenny Dail
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I agree Donny, I know I won't live to see it.
We live in the age where two years of a tech school turns out say, Harley Davidson Master Mechanics....
One of our young "Truck Mechanics" has been there 5 years working on trucks, and the other day I reminded him that for the next five years or so he's still just a "kid with a bunch of tools". Long as when someone asks him a question about a truck motor, frame, drive train, or how to get a heater out of a truck, and he says.. "I'll look it up..".
There's a lot of sharp kids with steel guitars, and generations ahead will tell which ones were just that, and which will "master the instrument".
Our instrument has been around long enough to certainly have a few rise to monumental popularity, and an undisputed two or three are "The Tops".
In the history of Guitar, some will remember, there were Conservatories. Not "Boot Camps". Segovia was viewed as the "Robert Randolph" of his time for having the "gall" to play "Tarrega" arrangements. These Conservatories developed into "Berklee Schools of Music", and things like the "G.I.T". Not just "Conventions" or "Courses".
I DO believe there will be a strong and building future for our instrument, and of course the early prolific players wil provide the seed for a ever increasing seriousness toward adapting a pedal/string pitch changed guitar to all knids of music.
We'll see, or rather our kids will.
Provided there is a future..'
All JMHO, and a hopeful one.
EJL
We live in the age where two years of a tech school turns out say, Harley Davidson Master Mechanics....
One of our young "Truck Mechanics" has been there 5 years working on trucks, and the other day I reminded him that for the next five years or so he's still just a "kid with a bunch of tools". Long as when someone asks him a question about a truck motor, frame, drive train, or how to get a heater out of a truck, and he says.. "I'll look it up..".
There's a lot of sharp kids with steel guitars, and generations ahead will tell which ones were just that, and which will "master the instrument".
Our instrument has been around long enough to certainly have a few rise to monumental popularity, and an undisputed two or three are "The Tops".
In the history of Guitar, some will remember, there were Conservatories. Not "Boot Camps". Segovia was viewed as the "Robert Randolph" of his time for having the "gall" to play "Tarrega" arrangements. These Conservatories developed into "Berklee Schools of Music", and things like the "G.I.T". Not just "Conventions" or "Courses".
I DO believe there will be a strong and building future for our instrument, and of course the early prolific players wil provide the seed for a ever increasing seriousness toward adapting a pedal/string pitch changed guitar to all knids of music.
We'll see, or rather our kids will.
Provided there is a future..'
All JMHO, and a hopeful one.
EJL