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Topic: B6th vs. C6th |
Kyle Everson
From:
Nashville, Tennessee
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Posted 31 Jan 2007 3:14 pm |
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On my Sho-Bud, the C neck doesn't get used live as much as I would like, mostly because I'm more familiar with E9 and my mind gets tangled up on the back neck. I tuned the C neck down to B this week and have been experimenting with it. Since the fretboard positions are the same as when I lower my E's on the E neck, it has made it easier to find my way around.
My question is, for you more experienced players, what are the inherent benefits of having the back neck tuned to C vs. B? My guess is that most of you probably did this in the beginning because of familiarity with C6th nonpedal. With a six string background, as well as E9 experience, B6th makes more sense for me. What limitations does B6th have compared to C6th as an open tuning (hammer-ons, pull-offs, etc) that I am not aware of? Thanks in advance, this is something I've thought about for quite awhile. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2007 3:26 pm
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| It seems to me that you can learn where the notes are either way, and it you gain nothing by having the same open strings on 2 necks. In other words it is an advantage to have different open strings available on the 2 necks. |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2007 5:15 pm
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It always seems to me that the the "flat keys" (F, Bb, Eb, Ab) sound better on the C6th neck. Might be my imagination, though.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Alan Brookes
From:
Brummy living in Southern California
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Posted 31 Jan 2007 5:26 pm
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| You get less string breakage with B6. I have the front neck tuned to D#9 rather than E9 for that very reason. |
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Michael Johnstone
From:
Sylmar,Ca. USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2007 7:39 pm
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| Tuning your back neck to B6 is just training wheels for an E9/B6 universal which is of course what you ultimately want to play. |
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Jim Bob Sedgwick
From:
Clinton, Missouri USA
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Posted 31 Jan 2007 8:41 pm
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| b0b wrote: |
| It always seems to me that the the "flat keys" (F, Bb, Eb, Ab) sound better on the C6th neck. Might be my imagination, though. |
"Maybe you are playing a little too flat to use the B6 b0b:  |
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Albert Svenddal
From:
Minneapolis, MN
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Posted 31 Jan 2007 9:29 pm
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Kyle, I have been playing a "Universal" for many years now and have also played C-6th on several different guitars. It appears to me, anyway, that there is a tone difference between the two. While the notes and the chords are all there, the C-6th has a unique tone difference to it which is what everybody is used to and is not there on the B-6th. I could probably listen to a song and tell if it was C-6th or B-6th. Just my thoughts about the difference. Might have to do with string gauging or something like that. If some one could explain it, let me know. I often wondered about this myself. Albert
_________________
Williams D-12 9x7, Emmons PP D-10, 8X5, Quilter SteeAire amp. |
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David Mason
From:
Cambridge, MD, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2007 3:38 am
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| I tend to vary between B6th and Bb6th with the intent of breaking up over-reliance on fret position markers. I actually prefer the tone of a standard C6th string set tuned a little lower, it's more "stringy" & natural & human sounding somehow, less shiny & bright & machinehead. Plus you never break strings, OK by me. |
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Kyle Everson
From:
Nashville, Tennessee
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Posted 1 Feb 2007 9:44 am
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Earnest, good point. The availability of different open notes was definitely my biggest concern. The timbre of the neck could probably be overcome with different string gauges. I'm mainly using this as a learning tool...linking my knowledge of E9 to the C6 pedal changes. Maybe that's a bad idea.
I want to be able to use my C neck for classic country songs without sounding "swing" all the time. Since I'm new to this tuning, it's harder for me find ways to get from the I to IV to V (I'm tired of overusing the open->6th pedal->7th pedal revolution). I thought familiar fret positions would help in the quest.
Thanks for the replies. Keep 'em comin'!  |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 1 Feb 2007 9:54 am
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| Kyle Everson wrote: |
| Earnest, good point. The availability of different open notes was definitely my biggest concern. The timbre of the neck could probably be overcome with different string gauges. |
I don't think so. an F note at the 5th fret (C6th) sounds richer than an F note at the 6th fret (B6th), because you are at a harmonic point on the string. It's easier to play in tune at some frets than others for the same reason.
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| I want to be able to use my C neck for classic country songs without sounding "swing" all the time. Since I'm new to this tuning, it's harder for me find ways to get from the I to IV to V (I'm tired of overusing the open->6th pedal->7th pedal revolution). I thought familiar fret positions would help in the quest. |
I use mostly the 4th and 5th pedal when I want classic country sounds. Think of the 5th pedal as a D9th. Release it and press the 4th pedal for the I to IV change (D to G). Use your C to C# lever to get the V chord.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 1 Feb 2007 8:41 pm
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Hi folks. This is Don McClellan but I'm on David's computer. I play B6 and I can tell you its nice to have your C chord and F chord at the first fret instead of in the open possition. Most of us play in the key of C a lot. At least I do. It puts Steelin' The Blues in the key of C. Whatever that means. Don (in Thailand)
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
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Larry Phleger
From:
DuBois, PA
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Posted 2 Feb 2007 6:03 am
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| What David said. I play universal, but I admit I play the B6 mostly without using the pedals. |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 2 Feb 2007 7:43 am
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| Quote: |
| I want to be able to use my C neck for classic country songs without sounding "swing" all the time. |
That involves note choice, timing, and phrasing, NOT the key center of your open tuning.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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b0b
From:
Cloverdale, CA, USA
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Posted 2 Feb 2007 8:14 am
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| David L. Donald wrote: |
| Hi folks. This is Don McClellan but I'm on David's computer. I play B6 and I can tell you its nice to have your C chord and F chord at the first fret instead of in the open possition. Most of us play in the key of C a lot. At least I do. It puts Steelin' The Blues in the key of C. Whatever that means. Don (in Thailand) |
You can always play Steelin' The Blues in C (or Eb) on the E9th, if that's the key you need.
Tuning the back neck to B6th will put other open string songs like Remington Ride into non-standard keys.
_________________
-𝕓𝕆𝕓- (admin) - Robert P. Lee - Recordings - Breathe - D6th - Video |
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Kyle Everson
From:
Nashville, Tennessee
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Posted 2 Feb 2007 10:04 am
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| Quote: |
| That involves note choice, timing, and phrasing, NOT the key center of your open tuning. |
What I meant by that was that it was easier for me to match up the "swing" strings on my back neck by being on the same fret as the E9. Just a learning tool so that I can develop the right phrases for the song.
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| Tuning the back neck to B6th will put other open string songs like Remington Ride into non-standard keys. |
Thanks, b0b. This is the kind of stuff I was looking for. I appreciate all the help.
Kyle |
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David Doggett
From:
Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
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Posted 2 Feb 2007 2:48 pm
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I play a universal E9/B6. The only serious reason mentioned above to have a C neck is to keep your guitar player happy if you want to play a song with open strings, hammer-ons and pull-offs. The key of B is not a favorite of guitar players. Of course, how many times does anyone else in the band ask the steeler what keys he prefers? On the other hand, there are some songs in the key of C where you want to use a bar at the first fret, so you can slide into the notes and chords. For that reason, I mostly prefer playing songs in C on a B neck. Even though I'm an old Dobro player, on steel I use slides more than hammer-ons and pull-offs.
You do seem to end up on more familiar frets on a B neck, because the keys of E and B are related - B is the 5th of E, and E is the 4th of B. And a major advantage is that one of the secrets of the C6 neck is to use the 9th string as the root and play it as an Fmaj7 9 neck. Well guess what that turns out to be on B6, Emaj7 9, so it is just a jazz tuned E neck - easy as pie.
Maybe there are a few people who could tell the difference between a C neck and B neck in a blind side-by-side comparison. But somehow that seems way too subtle to base a tuning on. The same with the flat keys sounding better. Unless there is a drastic change in postion, like when you go from the key of E to the key of D on E9, and have to move your open pedal chord way up the neck, I don't get the difference that one fret makes. We don't worry that a song in A will sound better than one in G (2 frets difference), or that G will sound better than C (5 frets difference). Reece Anderson has fooled many people by tuning in B instead of his usual Bb, and no one noticed or could tell which recordings it was on.
So bottom line for me would be to think hard on whether you will be wanting to do alot of hammer-ons and pull-offs in the key of C. |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 3 Feb 2007 7:17 pm
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| David Doggett wrote: |
I play a universal E9/B6. The only serious reason mentioned above to have a C neck is to keep your guitar player happy if you want to play a song with open strings, hammer-ons and pull-offs. The key of B is not a favorite of guitar players. Of course, how many times does anyone else in the band ask the steeler what keys he prefers? On the other hand, there are some songs in the key of C where you want to use a bar at the first fret, so you can slide into the notes and chords. For that reason, I mostly prefer playing songs in C on a B neck. Even though I'm an old Dobro player, on steel I use slides more than hammer-ons and pull-offs.
You do seem to end up on more familiar frets on a B neck, because the keys of E and B are related - B is the 5th of E, and E is the 4th of B. And a major advantage is that one of the secrets of the C6 neck is to use the 9th string as the root and play it as an Fmaj7 9 neck. Well guess what that turns out to be on B6, Emaj7 9, so it is just a jazz tuned E neck - easy as pie.
Maybe there are a few people who could tell the difference between a C neck and B neck in a blind side-by-side comparison. But somehow that seems way too subtle to base a tuning on. The same with the flat keys sounding better. Unless there is a drastic change in postion, like when you go from the key of E to the key of D on E9, and have to move your open pedal chord way up the neck, I don't get the difference that one fret makes. We don't worry that a song in A will sound better than one in G (2 frets difference), or that G will sound better than C (5 frets difference). Reece Anderson has fooled many people by tuning in B instead of his usual Bb, and no one noticed or could tell which recordings it was on.
So bottom line for me would be to think hard on whether you will be wanting to do alot of hammer-ons and pull-offs in the key of C. |
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 4 Feb 2007 5:04 am
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I wonder: any reason why one couldn't take a C6 tuning like Earnest's ( http://b0b.com/tunings/ebovine.html#C6 ) and adapt it for E9 (raising the E's instead of G#'s on B pedal e.g.)?
Fire away.
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Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 4 Feb 2007 7:50 am E9 on C6
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Charlie-That is a good idea and has been tried. If you raise the E's to F and the G's to A, you have the 2 basic E9th pulls. I dont know why more guys dont do it, just set the first two pedals that way. When you raise the G's to A you will have 2 A's but it doesn't hurt your playing.
I hae been doing that for quite a while on my Pro 1 S10 with 6 pedals and 5 knee levers. Only I do it on E6, then raise my G#'s to A and my B's to C#, and there you have the same as E9 with the same bar positions as E9 and everything. With the C# in there open , you do have two C#'s together, but it is kinda nice effect, if you get used to the slightly different grips.
A player can get used to it after awhile, it doesn't replace the E9 exactly, but adds to the E6 tuning or C6 tuning whatever you wish...I wouldn't reccommend this most players. When I played professionaly in the earlier years it was one neck S8 or S10 E6, later C6-E9 D10 or S12, then E6-E9, but I like the idea of B6 -E9 on a D10 as B is the 5th of E and you can relate the chords and bar positions, and also be ready for a Universal S12 if you ever went that route.
My 2 cents for what it's worth....al.
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
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Charlie McDonald
From:
out of the blue
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Posted 4 Feb 2007 8:11 am Re: E9 on C6
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Thanks, Al. The depth of your experience is a treasure.
Is there anything you haven't tried?
| Al Marcus wrote: |
| ... you will have 2 A's but it doesn't hurt your playing. |
I don't think there's anything that would hurt my playing.
_________________
Those that say don't know; those that know don't say.--Buddy Emmons |
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Herb Steiner
From:
Briarcliff TX 78669, pop. 2,064
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Posted 4 Feb 2007 9:16 am
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Red Rhodes played an Eb6 tuning that raised his G notes to Ab and his Bb notes to C, which gave him the AB changes.
_________________
My rig: Infinity and Telonics.
Son, we live in a world with walls, and those walls have to be guarded by men with steel guitars. Who's gonna do it? You? You, Lt. Weinberg? |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 11 Feb 2007 12:46 pm
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Herb-Thanks for your post about Red Rhodes, nice to see you posting.
I remember seeing him in California, and he went to Eb so he didnt have to worry about breaking that High G# as in E tuning. A good idea at the time.
Reece had an high A on his 1st string on his old Bb6-maj7th tuning , so I tried his only in A6 with the high G# and it worked well, also the A6 related more to most of your standard keys.
But I found myself more comfortable in E6th, even though I had to worry about that high G# breaking .This way my two A and B pedals were the same notes as on E9....al.
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
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Robert Harper
From:
Alabama, USA
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Posted 18 Feb 2007 10:09 pm C6 10th string
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| I don't play C6. I plat at E9, but boy I was in there earlier foolin with the C6 neck and you know that 10 string on C6 is definetly a great note. And I don't know if yous could get that not on E9, Im sure yous guys will tell me |
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Al Marcus
From:
Cedar Springs,MI USA (deceased)
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Posted 19 Feb 2007 11:59 am
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Charlie-Thanks, but if a guy plays steel long enough, he might pick up a couple of things. ....al:)
_________________
Michigan (MSGC)Christmas Dinner and Jam on my 80th Birthday.
My Email.. almarcus@cmedic.net
My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 19 Feb 2007 9:47 pm
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Robert, you can get something in the ball park
with an Extended E9 12 string.
_________________
DLD, Chili farmer. Plus bananas and papaya too.
Real happiness has no strings attached.
But pedal steels have many! |
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