circle of 5ths

[Calvin Walley]

i thought i would make a new commitment to learn more music theory, so i went back to winnies Book . don't get me wrong Winnies book is great , but there are about 4 pages that deal with the circle of 5ths and so forth that it would make E=mc2 look like childs play
i know i have to study it in order to understand it, but the wording seems to jump all over the place making it harder
( i hope ) than it should be...anyone else have this problem ???

[Damien Odell]

I learnt all that a while back.....but NOT ONCE have i ever used it while playing guitar or steel.
The most helpful thing i ever learnt was the numbering system and some chord construction stuff along with some scales.
At the end of the day, if you work on training your ear along with a little theory then that's all you need.
A player with a great ear and no musical knowledge can wipe the floor with someone who has been sitting round for years studying every inch of theory any day.
I reckon it's just best to learn what you think will help you be a better player.
When I'm playing a solo on the steel the last thing I think of is what mode I'm gonna play over that next chord - I just seem to end up doing things in places I don't usually go.

That's only my opinion - cause I know there are players for whom musical theory has proved very beneficial.

Damien

[Calvin Walley]

thanks for replying, but i think things might go better if my brain understood what i'm asking my hands to do
you will get no argument from me that the folks that play by ear alone are great players
i always thought that playing by ear was more of a god given talent than a learned skill ( which he did not see fit to bestow on me )
the wording in Winnies book just seems very confusing

[Bryan Daste]

I happened to have the Winston book in front of me, and you're right, the theory pages are really confusing. They assume you know a lot, and then throw in some new ideas (tetrachords, etc.) that I've never seen elsewhere...even though I understand the circle of fifths, this didn't make much sense to me.

This site is relatively well written:
http://www.musictheory.net/

Good luck!

[David L. Donald]

Winnie's book is stored away somewhere.

For me the best way to understand the cirlce of fiths is to
PLAY THEM.

C then G,
G then D
D then A
A then E
E then B
B then F#
F# then C#
C# then G#
G# then D#
D# then A#
A# then F
F then C

Just keep playing around them,
and start from different C chords on your neck.
After awhile... you will start to see the over all patterns.

When it starts to clear up... try playing the list BACKWARDS
A circle of decending 4ths!
Good luck.

[Tony Prior]

the intent is to understand in AUTO PILOT the 5ths of each root or 1 chord.

The circle of 5ths describes that at the end of the circle you are back where you started. hence, a circle.

Think of a CIRCLE, it's continuous, it's fixed . If you start at any point on the circle and follow it around you return to the starting point again.

We may not use the circle of 5ths as described in everyday use but as players at some point we should be able to name the 5th of any root without thinking about it. Like knowing your way back to the house from the Mailbox.

The layout above by David is precise and easy to see.

After you do the 5ths, do a cycle of 4ths

C >F
F >Bb
Bb>Eb
Eb>Ab
Ab>C#
C#>F#
F#>B
B > E
E >A
A >D
D > G
G >C
C

Nobody really needs to recite the entire circle, what they really need to know is the 4th related to the 1 chord, any "1" chord.

Instead of reading the book,perform your own exercise..

start at C, play the 5th which is G, then play the 5th to G..etc..and so on..until you are back to C again. Use Davids chart above if you need to.

If you study this from the NO PEDALS Position ( 8th fret) and play the 5ths which are closest on the fretboard to this OPEN C and then repeat the exercise starting from the Pedals IN Position ( 3rd fret) the fretboard will really open up visually.

You can do this entire exercise using just 3 chord variations, Open chrods,( no pedals) AB Pedals IN, and Pedal A Knee/ lever F ( E Raise) positions.

The great thing about doing this on our Instrument is that each common string grip applies to the formula.

It's really not E=MC squared.

If you actually draw a circle, write a C anywhere on the circle, just to the right of it write G, just to the right of it write a D, and so on and so on, when you get to the final note which is an F you will be back to the C again, you won't even need to write it, it will already be there. Thats what the Circle of 5ths explains.

good luck

t

[Ric Epperle]

Good answer, David.

[Ric Epperle]

Good answer, Tony. These circles have been very helpful to me over the years.

[Dick Sexton]

Thank you Bryan,
The site http://www.musictheory.net/ is very informative. The "Circle Progressions" give the music theory and a sound file of the circle of fifths being played. It also lets you repeat the sounds over and over again to commit them to memory. That with what Tony and David have posted should open this box up for most of us. Since I don't read a note, the sound files are very helpful. This site also has a wealth of other information, easy to understand because of the way it is presented, and it's there for the taking. DS

[David L. Donald]

Tony also a good responce.

Also I would add this, the relationships of
the circle to the Base Key; C.

C + I or chord root for the cycle.
C then G .........V
G then D .......II
D then A ........VI
A then E ........III
E then B ........VII

Ok this part is easy enough,
but the below becomes more difficult.

B then F# .......bV
F# then C#......bII
C# then G#.....#V
G# then D#.....bIII (minor)
D# then A#.....bVII
A# then F........IV
F then C ........I (back to root chord)

As you can see, the circle reflects all the chords in a key.
The basics and the more jazz oriented chord notes also.

It shows you how when you do a I VI II V turnaround,
that it makes a logical sense.
Or that a VI III, VII could work in some cases also.

This chart doesn't add the TYPES of chords needed to be played.
Such as Major, Dominant 7, Minor, Diminished/minor flat5 etc.
That's for another lesson plan, for sure...

Maybe this adds confusion,
but maybe it makes the integral logic stand out
a touch more. ( if I made no mistakes of course)

Take it one small chunk at a time...

[Tony Prior]

we could go on and on , and even reach the point of self confusion.

Keeping the subject in it's simplicity, which is where I reside, in simplicity..( story of my life) ...

As Musicians who for the most part are going to play a 3 or 4 chord Country songs 99% of the time, I suggest that we become familiar with 5ths and the 4ths intevals. Ok , after that some 3rds and minor 6ths..tuff crowd..

The greatest asset we have is that we an Instrument that gives us the 4th from any open position just by stepping an two pedals at the same time ! How great is that. To find the 5th, slide your bar up two frets.

there, I'm trained.

I believe using C as a home position is a wondefull tool, I personally relate everything to E, buts thats just my choice.

even on the C6th neck, I relate everything to the 4th fret, E.

Calvin, DO NOT get wrapped up in the deep theory of it all, look at it in it's simplicity.

Pick a note, whats the 5th to the that note ? then, whats the 5th to the NEW note and so on.?

Pick a note, whats the 4th to that note ? then whats the 4th to the NEW note and so on...

It's not magic, it's MUSIC . A few simple rules and off we go.

Nobody playing out is thinking circle of 5ths or 4ths, they are just playing.

What key are we in ? C, oh good, I can play along now.

IF someone told me that I needed to use the circle of 5ths for the next song, I would sit that one out , make believe I broke a string or something


t

[Andy Jones]

Calvin,get yourself an Edly's Music Theory for Practical People book to study.It's very simple and interesting and easy to understand.I ordered mine from Books-a Million for about $25.
Andy

[b0b]

Memorize the circle of fifths frontwords and backwords. It should be "second nature" to all musicians, like counting to 4 and ending on the 1.

[Jim Palenscar]

-MusicTheory.net~~Great site Bryan
-Nice thread- I always struggle with this stuff
-and Tony- "IF someone told me that I needed to use the circle of 5ths for the next song, I would sit that one out , make believe I broke a string or something"- rollin' on the floor 'cause that's exactly what I'd be doing

[Chris Schlotzhauer]

I only use it to relate to how many sharps/flats are in a scale.
C scale = none
C => G scale = 1 sharp
G => D scale = 2 sharps
etc... but that's it for me.

[Bryan Knox]

David and Tony,

You have just explained something I never understood in the book.

It just didn't make sense to me until you guys explained it is such easy terms.

THANK YOU

[Jim Eaton]

The "Circle of 5th's" chart that I'm familiar with has C at the 12:00 position. Going to the right of C will be G,D,A,E,B and to the left will be Bb, Eb, Ab, Db etc. When you go "right" from C, your going in "5th's" and when you go left from C your going in "4th's". This is an easy way to remember how many sharps or flats are in any key also as they add up as you get further away from C. KeyG = 1#, D=2#, A=3#, E=4#. Going left from C your dealing with b's and they are KeyF=1b, Bb=2b, Ab=3b.
So when your sitting in with a band and the guitar player flashes you 3 fingers up from across the stage for the next song, he's telling you that the song has 3 sharps, and that is equal to the key of A. What key are you going to be playing in if he flashes you 4 finger down?
JE:-)>

[Dale Thomas]

The circle gets confused because we infuse another set of numbers. We have the number system for chords (I-IV-V), scale tones (6th-9th) , flats and sharps for keys (3 sharps), etc. We as commercial musicians use the V-I (G7-C) and
think of it as going up. Especially when so many country steel
endings on top neck end by going no pedals-G or V, to C or I -both pedals. Notice the roman numerals, V-I, are descending. It's a circle of 5ths theory wise, whether you go up or down to the next chord. Like the other popular ending of
IV-I, pedals to non, it's an ascending 5th theory-wise, even tho we hear the pitches going down.
I teach my band the number system and the circle, for example in Sweet Georgia Brown I would say "Key of F, 6 chord and circle" we're on our way. They can find the D and they know where it goes. Good tool. Dale

[Mike Perlowin]

I apologize for the hype, but I want to remind everybody that I've written a book on music theory that's published by Mel Bay.

http://www.melbay.com/product.asp?Produ ... Compositio

I'ved also written a supplement for the E9 tuning that I will send for free to anybody who buys the book.

Back the the circle itself, IT IS NOT THE FIRST THING YOU NEED TO LEARN. In order to really understand how the circle works, you need learn about the structure of the major scale, and how and why the C and G major scales are so closely related, and how and why they differ.

The study of music theory is like the study of math. You need to start by learning that one and one is two, and two and two are four before you can go on the algebra and geometry. Using that same analogy, the circle of 5ths is like the multiplication tables.

Again, I apologize for hyping my own work, but my book explains this stuff in ways that are easily understood, and I think that those of you who are confused about this stuff and/or want to learn more about it, can benifit from the book and the free supplement.

Besides, I get 87 cents for every copy sold, and I need the money

[Pete Burak]

There are some songs that are based on the circle of 5th's, which might help as a practicle theory method.
Hotel California by The Eagles comes to mind.
A quick search finds this tab:
http://www.ultimate-guitar.com/tabs/e/e ... ia_tab.htm

Anyone got any other COF songs reccomendations?

[David L. Donald]

Pete, yeah great idea.
Learn to play that tune on Steel,
and then pick each chord appart later
and see which notes are in it.

[Jim Cohen]

Any jazz tune with 3-6-2-5-1 bridge, e.g., Oleo, Scrapple from the Apple, etc.

[Jonathan Shacklock]

Mike, don't apologise your book is very easy to follow, which makes the difficult task of absorbing all that it contains significantly easier. I'm not there yet but I come back to it every few months and the fog lifts a little each time I read it.

Little tip about the circle of fifths. Surf the net for the one that is most clearly laid out to your eyes, print it out and put it where you can see it while you practice. I like the type that has the inner circle of relative minors. As you learn songs, see how the chords move around on the circle. To memorize it I find it helpful to NOT take it in order clockwise. I go one step anticlockwise to the 4th of the key you're in (eg C to F), then two steps clockwise to the 5th (eg F to G). Then go one step anticlockwise from the 5th etc. Do that while you mash your pedals and you're learning neck positions at the same time as your I,IV,V progressions. Taking it out of order (but in the order I actually use it) somehow helps me to visualise and remember the circle better.

Bill Keith wrote the theory sections in Winnie's book. In fairness to him you aren't going to learn theory the first few times you read any discussion of it. Read a bit, try it out. Hit a brick wall, come back later, try again.

[Ray Minich]

In the back of a 1966 (approx) little book written by Tom Bradshaw is a list of 40 chord progressions "typically found in country music today", with today being 1966. That was all well and good until my brain exploded upon further reading that these 40 progressions were all in the key of "C", and it was left as an exercize for the reader to transpose them to the other keys.
Music theory... is there another instrument that places such demands yet provides such opportunity?

[b0b]

Here's one I wrote called "Round The Horn", from my Quasar Steel Guitar CD:
http://soundhost.net/b0b/Horn.wav