Studio monitors

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 24 Nov 2006 8:48 pm

Stupid question I know but if one had powered or active monitors, would that mean that there would be little need for a power amp? If a power amp is needed, even with powered speakers, what would be the advantage of having powered speakers?

Ken

Darrell Owens · Post by **Darrell Owens** » 24 Nov 2006 9:28 pm

Ken,

No question is a stupid one if it is an honest one.

The answer is you do not need an amp if you have powered speakers. The speakers are driven from the line out on the board, computer or whatever. The amp is inside the speaker enclosure.

Darrell

Ken Williams · Post by **Ken Williams** » 25 Nov 2006 8:58 pm

Thanks Darrell. Thought about getting some new monitor speakers for my little home recording setup. I was also needing a new power amp and thought I might be able to kill two birds with one stone, so to speak.

Ken
http://home.ipa.net/~kenwill

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Nov 2006 10:08 am

My best suggestion is not a brand or another.

But how you audition your monitors.
And don't forget it's matching subwoofer.

Pick 4 cd's in different styles, and listen to them on several systems.
Find CD's that seem consistant on several listening systems.

I usual have 1 bluegrass, one classical, one salsa, and 1 old classic and one new rocker.

And of course somethings I have recorded.

Bela Fleck's Drive
or David Grisman with Tone Rice, Tone poems or with Jerry G.

Beethoven's 9th recorded at the Concert Gebau Amsterdam

Gloria Estephan's Mi Tiera is a great salsa reference

Early Zepelin, Dark Side Of The Moon,
and or Byrds, anything you like a lot,
and sounds good most times you hear it
over the years.

Or if not rock,
Ray price's Time is a great country recording,
and I also find Van Morrison's newest pretty nicely recorded.

OK, if ALL this music sounds pretty good,
but ESPECIALLY the one closest to the majority of your style,
then this is the system you want.

If what you play sounds killer,
but OTHER styles sound weak,
then it is accentuating YOUR style,
and will likely fool you when mixing.
Make them ALL sound good, and you have covered your bases.

Note : also mnotice exactly how the speakers
you are auditioning are placed in the room at the time.

Get the system home and you still
must determine you mixing/monitoring position:
wall to speaker and wall to subwoofer ratios
to get a good sound from fine speakers in YOUR space.

Use ALL the same cd's to find the best balance
of speakers to walls/corners and listening position.
Sub woofer is best starting with a placement
right of center. Aprox. 2/3L - 1/3R IN THE ROOM.
But if it sounds smoother 6" left or right then that is correct.
Don't forget also distance to the front wall, behind your speakers.
Bass notes are 360 degree, not just at the mouth of the woofer.

So you must allow bass sound to the wall AND back as a reflections,
and place your subwoofer so those reflections seem best balanced in time and volume.
Listen for bass notes notably weaker or stronger.
Minmize the difference.

Yeah right, simple Huh?
Well you can do better than NOT thinking about it
and moving it around till you like it best.
Worth the effort.

Great Monitoring is your ONLY way to get good sound,
unless you buy hugely expensive mics...
and pray a lot that you got it right using them.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 November 2006 at 09:16 PM.]

Gary Shepherd · Post by **Gary Shepherd** » 2 Dec 2006 9:34 pm

I thought I'd like having powered monitors before I got them - and they're still ok. But looking back, now I wish I had gone with passive monitors and a small amp.

As it is, I have to turn on each monitor every time I use them. Sometimes I forget to turn them off. I also have my computer running out to the monitors (Windows sounds) so when my computer first comes on, it can be a little startling if I've forgotten to turn the monitors off.

I haven't had any problems with mine (Event TR-8-XL). It's just a tiny hassle to have to turn them on and off.

My 2 cents - at no charge.

------------------
Gary Shepherd

Carter D-10

www.16tracks.com

Greg Cutshaw · Post by **Greg Cutshaw** » 2 Dec 2006 11:03 pm

I have a set of KRK Rokit 8 powered monitors that are low end but work great. I have NO idea how they compare with anything else but they meet my requirements. The 8" woofers sound awesome for playback but they do not give an accurate picture of the bass response that a typical user might get on a smaller system. It seems that most listeners today are listening to music on their IPODS or computers, not something with 8" speakers.

So I say buy bigger speakers like mine if you want awesome bass response. Buy smaller ones if you want to to know what you mix will sound like to the average users. Mine cost me $500 a pair new but I've seen them used for about half that.

Greg

Robby Springfield · Post by **Robby Springfield** » 4 Dec 2006 9:49 pm

Most guys I know want a set of speakers that produce a truely flat response in tone, if you are talking about mixing on them. Speakers that add color to your sound are not desired by mixing engineers.

The powered monitors have some advantages like correct time alignment between power amp and speakers. The Mackie HR824's are a good choice for a medium priced set.

David Biggers · Post by **David Biggers** » 4 Dec 2006 10:57 pm

I have mine pluged into a 500 watts amp with 2 polk audios on stands and 2 Bose 301's on the wall behind me and a Sony 500 watt subwoofer.Great for that live feel when playing tracks. I forgot to turn off mine also.I will wake you up!

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 5 Dec 2006 5:50 am

I agree 100% with Robbie on this one. I had a pair of Yamaha S-10's which were passive. I did drive them with a good amp but still needed a sub to get the room "flat". Got the Mackie's and the sub went bye bye.

While I am not trying to promote anything, the Mackie's or any other high quality monitor should give you a reasonable flat response and your mixes should sound good wherever you play them.

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 5 Dec 2006 9:52 am

I use old school NS-10s for near field. I use Infinity SM150's for simulating a high end user system. I also stick a ref CD into my truck CD. Generally, if it sounds good on the NS-10s, it will sound good elsewhere. You have to be careful with bass though.

------------------

Steve Stallings
The Songs

Hal Schmid · Post by **Hal Schmid** » 5 Dec 2006 10:25 am

I still have a big pair of passive JBL 4312 speakers in a small home studio. They run through a Mackie board and an old Marantz hi-fi amp. Too big for the space but great speakers in their day. I eventually got a pair of Alesis Monitor One speakers, and I always planned to get a good studio amp someday as well. But instead I retired the Alesis speakers to the living room and now use a pair of Mackie 824s for mixing -- going direct out of the sound card using short-run, balanced cables. Works pretty well.

Hal

KENNY KRUPNICK · Post by **KENNY KRUPNICK** » 8 Dec 2006 10:47 am

The KRK V8 Powered monitors would be my choice in getting a nice set. Guitar Center carries these.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 11 Dec 2006 9:06 am

The problem with NOT hearing the low frequencies when recording is
you have no idea what's happening down there.

If you go sans subwoofer you're driving blind.

Brad Sarnu has a great phrase for this audio byproduct ;
Junk in The Trunk.

Low frequencies you weren't aware of,
but that WILL be reproduced for noticable
negative effect in good systems.

AND will make a small amp on bad speakers work
MUCH harder trying to reproduce sounds
that the speakers can't even reproduce.
So the whole system distorts MUCH SOONER.

You can always shut THE SUB WOOFER off
or switch to NS-10's or the KRK's if you
want a boom box check.

But basic mixes and tracking requires
a full range monitoring system.

Would drive down the freeway at night
with sunglasses.
There surely would be things you missed.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 14 December 2006 at 07:56 AM.]

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 11 Dec 2006 5:02 pm

David D, you are mostly correct about the sub-frequencies, but I have had very good results with drastic EQ cuts below 80 hz or so,eliminating the offending junk. I use the KRK 5s with pretty good results. There is a lot of rumble from mike stands, feet, plosives etc, that can easily be eq'd out.JP

Bill Terry · Post by **Bill Terry** » 13 Dec 2006 9:06 am

If you go sans subwoofer you're driving blind.

David, are you saying that the sub is required to hear what the audible low-end response is doing, or just to be able to identify 'problems' that could be lurking below what's audible in a non-subwoofer equipped system?

Is a sub-woofer that common these days in a pro room?

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Dec 2006 8:33 am

I would say yes, IMHO. 10" woofer still don't tell you enough.
Close but no cigar. 12's a step closer.

If you can't hear it you can't deal with it accurately.

You CAN make educated guesses.
Jim P. yes, you can do drastic cuts below 80 hz.
But it is much better to hear how much you are cutting,
rather than an arbitrary setting you are using blindly.

Usually stand rumble and recording debres
have some upper frequency signatures too,
so you get an idea that something is also down below.

But bass drums, floor toms and bass guitars,
and more so upright bass, typany, even synthetic ones,
all need to be heard clearly IMHO.

There are many usefull frequencies down to 40-50 hz,
that are still quite valid musically.
But below 30 hz or so in popular recordings
it becomes rumble.

In classical a 16hz note from a
Bossendorfer piano is wonderfull to behold,
But without a sub woofer... it will just be lost.

I like the bigger KRK's and with the sub they are very nice indeed.
My acoustic designer friend put in a 5.1 surround KRK system in
at UBISOFT's mixing room for their game sound tracks.
I heard several of my mixes on this system,
and some favorite cd's of mine.
Both with and without subwoofer.

If you have a perfectly tuned cabinet
with double 15" woofers,
inline with super finely matched midrange driver
and mounted in a great room,
it is possible to get down to 20 hz .

But these speakers will buy you a new car...
a nice one EACH.
An example :
http://www.reyaudio.com/large-e.html

I want these babies for my new room.

But I may have Empad make me something similar, custom.
They are here in Thailand, and Eddie was head of design for Meyer Sound for decades.
We have one of their PA systems.

But I will still keep my Genelec 5.1 surround system.
It has a 400w 15" subwoofer.

For practical applications using typical woofer cabinet sizes,
a subwoofer is the way to go.

I have 2 Infinity Reference 1 MKII bookself speakers I got in Paris,
and a Sansui passive subwoofer I found in a pawnshop.
I was using them in a bedroom to write and did a few sessions,
until I built my small Nimes studio.
Once I found the place for the sub in each room I got quite acceptable mixes.
The Infinities are two way with only a 6" woofer.

But adding the sub gave me something useful.
The mixes from that period don't sound half
bad on the big system and in cars and boom boxes.

I have had them 10 years now, andI still use
the Infinity's as a small speaker reference today.

If you can get down approaching 35hz at reassonable volumes,
then at least you have a clue what's happening in useful frequencies.

You will likely be doing radical eq shelves
at some point down there.
I often stack 2 eq plug-ins on my final mix downs
to get really chopped below 30hz.

But one usually gets it's start frequency
and amount of cut modified,
and often another parametric used to re-lift
some of the above the point cut off to keep
it flat till it drops hard.

You need not sell the farm to get a useful subwoofer.
The best ones are matched to the speakers, from the same maker; typically.

What enables me to Get Low And KNOW
is the sub woofer.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 14 December 2006 at 08:37 AM.]

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 15 Dec 2006 9:08 am

My Inifinity SM 150's have a 15 inch woofer, two 4.5 inch midrange and one 1" polycell tweeter. The neat thing about them is that they are tunable to the room.

Frequency Response: 44Hz - 25kHz (+/-3dB) Crossover Frequency(ies): 500Hz, 5.5kHz Sensitivity: 102dB (1 watt/1 meter) Power Rating: 10 - 300 watts Nominal Impedance: 8 ohms Woofer: 15" (381mm) polypropylene coated Midrange Driver: TWO - 4.5" (114mm)polypropylene coated Tweeter: 1" (25mm) high-output polycell

If I want to get really crazy, I can run things thru my JBL SR 4733's. These have 2x15" drivers and a hf horn. They go down to 37mhz.

------------------

Steve Stallings
The Songs

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 15 Dec 2006 10:00 am

Steve both really nice units.

I do miss my old JBL 4311's still
decades later.

Another speaker I like very much are
ADAM
http://www.adam-audio.com/studio/

The tweeter works like and accordion bellows,
lateral movement pushing the sound out the side, with little phases issue I could discern.
I hear my mixes on several models at an AES, and was quite pleased.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 15 December 2006 at 11:25 PM.]

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 16 Dec 2006 10:50 am

I have the option of mixing with , or without a Subwoofer ....I prefer to do my tracking and mixing without it ....I'm familiar enough with my main monitors to know what the bottom end is going to sound like , especially since I am a piano player by trade, and can judge what my bottom end will sound like .... Without the sub, it makes it much easier to establish the rest of the material from 50 hz of so on up to the higher frequencies....I get to hear the placement in the mix better, and also the detail in the mix ..You don't have to worry so much about lower bass placement as it's all around you and is not directional like other material .... This is my way of tracking and mixing, and it may or may not work for everyone...YMMV ....Jim

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 28 Jan 2007 10:55 am

I just had a "Eureka/Aha!" moment through a Podxt for Soundcard post that I answered in the "Music" section.

It seems that the USB to a Podxt allows you to use IT as a soundcard.

Out of the Podxt/XtLive/Pro you could then use any mix, flat or otherwise, ANY powered speakers (amps) and have it in 24 bit.

It opens up a lot of things for us basement guys with Pods.

Even just for listening to CDs blasting the neighbors out through two Nashville 400s...

One of those things I guess I should have thought of, and I'm sure the Bosses, Digitechs or any other processors that have a USB would do the same thing..

( I know.. "We all know that Eric"....)

EJL[/url]