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Topic: The Elements Of Tone....part 2 |
Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 7:51 am |
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My only motivation for starting the thread
"Elements Of Tone", which has now progressed to this extended thread, is my heart felt attempt to do my part to give something back to the steel guitar and those who love and play them, for without both, my life would not have been the blessing I have experienced.
The very positive phone calls, emails, letters, and posts on the forum are greatly appreciated. They have provided the motivation and resolve to continue in my efforts, which if only helps one person enjoy learning and playing the instrument, I will consider my participation as having been worthwhile.
Back on topic.........
Imagine someone buying a 1000 piece picture puzzle and trying to put it together without looking at the picture on the box.
It could take a lifetime to put it together, yet with the picture, it can be accomplished relatively quickly.
That analogy may appear to be silly, but there is a correlation which could apply to some who attempt to play steel guitar without the "picture". Elements of tone is without question a big piece of the puzzle..............
With this said, I would hope our goal is... to work together to acquire the "picture" which will help all of us, and assist in the evolutionary progress of steel guitar itself.
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 8:29 am
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Reece, I think you are doing a great job with this thread.
Your general and specific advice seems very well analyzed.
While many are quite strong players and teachers also.
You have been able to put it together here,
in a very clear, cogent to all, way
Thank you again.
| Quote: |
| Notes were "fatter". Chords were "bigger". So much so that I had to make slight adjustments to my amp. The timbre of my guitar didn't change, but my tone did. |
Dennis, well oberserved.
I enjoyed your discription of
how you got there.
I also play single notes with thumb and middle finger,
as well as thumb and index,
sometimes trying to alternate both ways.
For me it does get a different sound with each finger,
and I have tried at times to both accentuate that difference,
as well as hide it.
It seems logical to be adept at both ways,
because it alows other riffs, not as easy or smooth
starting strictly from thumb index.
When I use picks I have liked those little very narrow Propics.
I bend them right to my finger,
but slightly striaghter near my finger nail.
Since I play no picks alot, it gives me close
to the same feel and blocking, but more percussive.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 November 2006 at 08:54 AM.] |
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Dave Mudgett
From:
Central Pennsylvania and Gallatin, Tennessee
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 8:43 am
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Reece, I think your analogy is right on the money. In any learning task, a good learner typically tries different approaches, and then uses "error feedback" to make corrections. If you don't know what you're going for, it definitely slows the process down. This "error feedback" needs some kind of internal reference to compare actual performance with.
One way to get that internal reference is to do lots of careful listening to steel players that "play well" and "have good tone".
Of course, if someone is going for a completely "non-standard" tone or "non-standard" playing style - by this I mean there are no practitioners to reference - I guess they just have to have that in their head or painstakingly search for it in the learning process. I think that's a big part of the reason why real innovators are unusual.
Of course, getting that reference is just one step - one needs to know which playing elements can be varied to achieve different tonalities, and then work at it, of course. This is why compiling the various controllable elements, as you did in Part 1, is so important. It's pretty hard to focus on these elements if you don't even know what they are. But again, someone can just blindly try things out. I don't recommend it, though. I teach for a living {edit - not steel guitar  } and I think it is the rare, very self-directed, bird who can make that work well. [This message was edited by Dave Mudgett on 26 November 2006 at 08:46 AM.] |
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Randy Beavers
From:
Lebanon,TN 37090
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 9:23 am
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In working to get better sustain I've found that vibrato plays an big part. I can make my guitar sustain longer with a slight vibrato by rolling the bar.
A different type of sustain happens when you raise your fingers from behind the bar. I can hear overtones from the left side of the bar blending in. We all know this happens on the 5th ,7th, and 12th frets, but try putting the bar on the 6th or 8th fret and lift the fingers. As you get closer to the keyhead of the guitar it doesn't make as much difference. It seems to me that with the string vibrating on both sides of the bar, one side helps keep the other going. |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 9:32 am
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The roughness of the bar can give longer sustain if the bar is moved (vibrato)...brings up the question of is there such a thing as too smooth?
Randy...try slightly pushing (vibrating) the bar pressure without sliding/rolling it...does this affect your sustain?
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Randy Beavers
From:
Lebanon,TN 37090
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 9:55 am
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Ed, it seems to me that the sustain is a little shorter that way. However that is a technique I've never used. I plan to work with it. Thanks!
The grip I hold the bar with is very light. Probably like I'd hold an egg! That probably doesn't affect the tone any but it does allow me to maneuver faster. I've seen some folks put a "death grip" on the bar. |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 9:58 am
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Reece. I don't know if I understand your analogy, but here's what I make of it.
When playing live, "Looking at the picture on the box" to me means hearing what you're playign from the vantage point of "what the audience hears".
THat is invariably hearing recordings from a recorder "out in the audience", and I've found that it's best done with a regular cassette, or now, I guess any advanced Digital Camera with a small "movie" function. I have a nice little Canon that does this.
Without fail, I early on found that especially without PA, the sound I hear on stage has got to be nearly painfully thin and tinny, or "out in the crowd" it sounds flat and muffled.
When working with a PA, I typically use SM57s and have the Sound tech EQ the mix flat with the highs boosted a bit. That can lessen the effect.
Reverb too is that way. Since I like to hear a bit more than should be "in the mix" I have my unmiked "monitor amp" pointed at my head, with all the reverb I want. If I can't I simply use a reverb that doesn't add a lot of regeneration, and a delay that's similar to what the "pros" use, 20-30% signal and 2-250 ms delay.
The "Big Picture" otherwise in the "World of Steel Guitar" is a much bigger picture than I'm capable of seeing. You can only feel so many parts of an elephant at once. The Forum here is the best way I've found.
EJL |
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ed packard
From:
Show Low AZ
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 11:24 am
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Randy...light grip but with an up and down pressure change when single stringing or noodling can give some interesting and different vibrato effects.
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Dennis Detweiler
From:
Solon, Iowa, US
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 12:57 pm
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| A continuing thought about Randy's theory on lifting the fingers behind the bar for sustain: Could this technique also allow the vibrating strings to resonate through the keyhead and into the body of the guitar? Thus, the construction of a well made guitar with a good piece of seasoned wood also compliments the tone and feeds back through the strings and into the pickup? |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 2:23 pm
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Reese
Do you like the same tone that you liked 30 or 40 years ago? |
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Donny Hinson
From:
Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 4:09 pm
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| Quote: |
| Thus, the construction of a well made guitar with a good piece of seasoned wood also compliments the tone and feeds back through the strings and into the pickup? |
Yes, if you're lucky!  |
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Chris LeDrew
From:
Canada
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 5:54 pm
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| I lift my fingers from behind the bar a lot. In fact, I only avoid doing this on the 5th,7th, 12th, and 17th frets because it sounds motley if you are off on the harmonics at all. I find that this technique is complimentary to tone and sustain in all other frets, and particularly helps in the higher register. I seem to recall Tommy White discussing this on a video, and something rings a bell about Jay Dee talking about it as well. |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 7:09 pm
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| Quote: |
| if someone is going for a completely "non-standard" tone or "non-standard" playing style |
Even then it is likely quite useful to also know standard techniques.
They didn't becomes standard's for no reasons.
I think moving the bar can put extra energy into the strings similar to guitarists,
using up and down the fret vibrato to keep notes ringing longer,
the friction ion the fret re-energises the string.
The bar does it differently,
and this must call for more observation,
to detect the best ways to do it.
And also tends to energise ajacent strings,
so muting/blocking is need for a clean sound also.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 November 2006 at 07:10 PM.] |
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Mike Shefrin
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 9:31 pm
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One thing I have learned is the importance of volume level to get a good tone or sound.
I discovered this by recording myself at different volume levels. If the volume is too low then the sound and tone is thin. If it's too high then the sound is distorted. Some players like the distorted sound but I personally don't. I like a clean,sweet and fat tone which is produced by a certain amount of volume. I don't know if this is pertinent to the discussion here, but I think that the steel as an instrument needs a certain volume level to sound it's best. |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 26 Nov 2006 11:05 pm
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Mike, I'm curious, what kind of pedal do you use.
That sounds more like a electronics angle.
Sorry off topic sorta.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 November 2006 at 10:33 AM.] |
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Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Nov 2006 3:43 am
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David D....At times I feel a slight execution advantage playing single string on faster songs when I use my middle finger and thumb. At other times I feel my execution is better when using my index finger and thumb.
As I mentioned in an earlier post, having the middle finger "in reserve" by using my index finger and thumb, makes the transition to a higher string quicker and more precise for me. I agree with you, one should be adapt at both.
Dave M....I like your termonology "error feedback". Trial and error is a great learning tool. The procedural elements and parameters we are discussing while describing our experience in depth, will hopefully give others things to think about, yet keep our minds "between the guard rails".
Randy B....Concerning your first post on this page. I have referred to what you are describing as being as "overtone loop". Like yourself, I too notice less sustain when reducing bar pressure. You mentioned you hold the bar like it's an egg shell, and thats something I plan to try.
Eric W....Your analogy is certainly within the parameters of my analogy of "seeing the picture on the puzzle box", the difference being I was using a far broader brush while your comments were more directed.
What I was referring to in my analogy is.....if one can attain the knowldge to see the "picture" of the elements involved and the relationship and physical impact it has on playing, their search is then focused and the pieces of the "picture" puzzle go together MUCH faster.
Ed P....Your comment about light grip and different pressures is interesting. When playing single string I greatly reduce the weight on the back of my bar so the mass is directed to the strings I'm playing.
Also I believe I feel the guitar response better if the bullet end does not exceed the highest string I'm playing.
Dennis D....for me personally, lifting the fingers behind the bar would result in dramatically reduced bar control. I can however see how it can alter the sound. This is possibly a great technique for slower tempo songs where added sustain enhances the sound.
Earnest B....I will assume your question means...do I use the same tone today, that I liked years ago.
Back in the time you are referencing I was playing far more jazz and big bands music than I am now. Today when playing the same kind of music, I would have to say I possibly have an identifiable resemblance, but because of the advancement in amps and sound processing, the sound I get today would be noticeably different. |
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Bo Borland
From:
South Jersey -
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Posted 27 Nov 2006 4:59 am
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I have been following this discussion on both threads and have discovered some amazing information being put forth by both great thinkers and great players. I have uncovered many of these things by just playing and listening to the results.
I of the Zen school of PSG, play freely, improvise whenever possible, and avoid analysis paralysis.
Thanks Reece, for the insight. |
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Franklin
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Posted 27 Nov 2006 5:10 am
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Here is another point to Ernest's question.
Which known players sounds the same as they did 10, 20, 30 years ago, etc.?
There are a few who still play the same guitars through the same type of amplification they used back then. Green does, and Buddy still plays the blade. Does Green sound like the old days? or does "E" sound like the Black album period when he's behind the "Blade"?
Ernest,
I believe the answer for why All of the pro's have a different tone today is because they never stop honing their picking skills.
If a player constantly practices the execution of notes on uptempo and/or ballad tempos, as they improve in those areas, their personal tone has to evolve into a different sound over time, whether their gear remains the same, or not.
Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 November 2006 at 05:12 AM.] [This message was edited by Franklin on 27 November 2006 at 07:06 AM.] |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 27 Nov 2006 6:20 am
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Dennis D. as to your earlier post.
I think that lifting the fingers behind the bar
would send vibrations to the body more strongly
through the Rollers / nut, than the peghead,
but a little would still reach the peghead.
Paul, I am sure that the recording technique of the Pro's engineers,
has been instrumental in their improved sound,
as most of us hear them, on platter.
Though they have of course practiced,
and updated their tools also. So their LIVE sound has also improved.
But one clear proof of that puddin' is;
Lloyd still plays basically the same rig,
but his latest efforts 'sound' much better
than many eariler recordings.(that I have heard)
No fault of his at all.
His technique has been great for decades.
And his playing is always interesting.
I think this thread and it's predesessor should be listed on the FAQ page also.
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 November 2006 at 10:36 AM.] |
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Eric West
From:
Portland, Oregon, USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Nov 2006 6:52 am
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Thanks Reece. I too was taught not to bar strings that you are not playing and to have the middle finger extended slightly farther than the bar, deadening the string you are not playing. I was taught that it allows you to play single notes with the nose/hub of the bar as well picking up the heel of the bar.
There's a phenom Ive noticed lately on the Telecaster regarding pickup placement and "harmonics". Harmonics work with the bridge pickup much better than the neck pickup.
Being fixed, the PSG pickup is pretty much where it is going to be, but if it is at the point of a multiple of 2 or 3, is there a "dead spot", like there seems to be with the neck pickup on a tele for harmonics and possibly certain frets due to the pickup being placed under a point of axis of string vibration?
I know that it has been stated that dead on twelfth fret playing can have a variable of being deadened right at the twelfth fret, and a lot of players tend to either "vibrato" it or remove the left fingers from the fretboard. Myself I have noticed this more slightly at the 5th and 7th frets. Places that if you pick the strings behind the bar, you get a note different from the one you are fretting ringing throughout the fretboard. I know Mr Emmons has a couple songs out where he has done this.
Thanks.
EJL |
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Franklin
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Posted 27 Nov 2006 7:31 am
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David,
Late for work, I'll comment later.
Paul[This message was edited by Franklin on 27 November 2006 at 07:35 AM.] |
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Reece Anderson
From:
Keller Texas USA, R.I.P.
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Posted 27 Nov 2006 8:51 am
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Bo B....I believe there is such a thing as "aquired Zen". I would think Zen is found in two realms...1) those in whom it already exists through exeptional inate ability, and...2) those who glean an overall perspective of playing and allow the mind to lead them to sub-conscious Zen after mental preparation.
I believe the masters will agree that once the overall "picture" is understood....they quit thinking about playing and allow the sub-conscious program to run. Thats when and why "too much analyzing is paralyzing".
Paul....Excellent comment! I have been listening to all you greats play live performances for years, and of course studio enhancement is not available, yet the performances continue to sound better over the years. In my opinion, it's further proof of the power of the hands to control and manipulate the sound/tone.
Eric W....I believe when the nose of my bar is addressing the strings I'm playing, along with the bar weight transfer forward.....has the potential to enhance the feel of the guitar and provide enhanced bar vibrato. I would also believe the directed weight of the bar when the back is raised, greatly exceeds that which is "just enough" to stop string rattle. |
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Earnest Bovine
From:
Los Angeles CA USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2006 9:08 am
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Reese
Asking about tone 30 years ago was meant to be an open ended question, to stimulate thought about what makes tone.
Are we trying to get the same tone we liked back then? Probably not; it seems like there are more instruments playing today so we can't occupy so much space in a track, or on stage.
We have different gear, but many of us still have the old gear too, and we sound different now even when we play the old gear.
I agree 100% with Paul Franklin in that the main reason we sound different is that we have all learned so much about playing, especially about the right hand. |
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Bill Hatcher
From:
Atlanta Ga. USA
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Posted 27 Nov 2006 10:13 am
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Bovine. You raise an interesting thought about the steel tone on tracks and live in todays modern settings.
Personally I think that the instruments in most situations are very identical to the rhythm sections of 20 or 30 years ago, but the volumes of these individual instruments on tracks has changed dramatically and play a part in the steel getting heard no matter what the tone of the instrument is. Yes 30-40 years ago there were drummers, but they were no where near the volume that they are placed on tracks today. So many classic country records were made with just a man with a snare drum and a stick and a brush. Your able to hear the slightest detail in the tone of all the instruments on the track. I turned on the country stations in the last couple of days to get a good idea of the general mixes that are presented today and how the tone of the Nashville steel players is being presented. I found the tracks are so stupid loud with drums and bass and screaming electric guitars and vocals in your face that to be honest with you I felt like the overall presentation of the pedal steel guitar was very lackluster. The musical thoughts of the players was right up there, but the sound of the instrument in many mixes I listened to had trouble competing with the volume levels of the drums and bass. Many times I found that the wonderful tone that we would appreciate from the steel guitar actually did not work in its' favor and sounded a bit staid in regards to the other sounds.
This has nothing to do with whether or not you like or dislike modern country, but the reality of the sonic placement of the steel guitar in this kind of music. |
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David L. Donald
From:
Koh Samui Island, Thailand
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Posted 27 Nov 2006 10:49 am
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I have yet to met a fine musician,
who didn't improve from plateau to plateau
over the years. It should be no different
for fine steel players here.
Now if this topic can help newcomers and
weekend duffers
improve their playing, by better applying practice time,
and performance self-observation,
then this can only be a great thing.
Analysis without getting too caught up in analysis.
If you know what you are looking for in your playing,
in a live situation then it just naturally
will come to your attention while you are playing.
The great zen masters here spend decades aquiering their
ability to NOT focus on the present function,
but be simply aware of it in the big picture with no tension in the process.
So if we are aware of what we need to do,
and just do it with out stress,
and are observant of what we do,
and yet a slight step back,
from it taking over all mental processes,
then we likely CAN play and improvise in
a musical zen state.
Everything from slight imperfections
to gross clams,
slide off like water from a duck.
I find my right hand is smoother the more relaxed I am mentally.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 November 2006 at 10:52 AM.] |
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