Country/Rock?????????

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 13 Aug 2006 2:26 pm

Charles,
I can agree with part of what you say but then read it again. I've heard DJ's right here in Nashville try to defend the "new country" that's being played today by the likes of Rascal Flatts, Trick Pony and others by saying it's country because it has a steel guitar and a fiddle in it. I just don't agree with that summation at all and I don't think most here would either. I would call "real country" as traditional country meaning Price, Haggard, Buck etc. I prefer to hear steel guitar in it as I'm a steel player but that doesn't necessarily define it as country. Most all of the "new country" we hear on todays modern country radio stations have steel guitar and fiddles but I wouldn't call them country at all. It's more of a pop/rock with steel guitar or fiddle. They also have a lot of distorted guitar solos not anything like the distortion of the 50's. I wouldn't call Kieth Urban country and listen to what he's doing. That's got to be more rock than anything yet they play him on country radio and call it country music.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 13 Aug 2006 2:54 pm

People like Keith Urban go the country route because they're over 30 - no room for anybody over 25 in pop these days, unless you were under 25 before you made it (ie. U2, Stones). Much of this new country is played by guys in their 30's who haven't got a prayer in the pop world, even though they are playing pop.

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 14 Aug 2006 8:15 am

Jim,seems you are the only one that knows how I like to stir things up ,and that I'm a hardheaded,opinionated old geezer,still stick to the comment about the steel and country music,never change my mind about that!! On a more serious note,I was happy to hear things are improving.Bama Charlie.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 14 Aug 2006 8:26 am

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[This message was edited by Gene Jones on 16 August 2006 at 03:33 AM.]

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 14 Aug 2006 10:24 pm

If something doesn't have a steel guitar in the mix, then it doesn't matter to me what kind of music it is, I usually don't pay it any attention. On the other hand, I'll listen to anything that does have steel guitar in the mix! Everybody has their own thoughts and beliefs and I certainly respect each one but I'm dedicated 100% to STEEL GUITAR and it's players!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 15 Aug 2006 2:10 am

No time to read this all yet,
but Marshal Tucker crossed between country
and rock pretty smoothly.

If you played rock back then Poco sure
sounded like country, from and EARLIER era,
than the country of that time.
But with better recording and slightly more modern themes.

The Outlaws were more rock,
but definitely paid homage
to Joe Maphis and Jimmy Bryant.

Nitty Gritty Dirt Band were nearly unclassifiable sometimes.
Olde Timey, walking talking country blues, bluegrass,
50's rock, folk ballads, and clean rock
with country inspired themes and vocal styles.

I have heard most types and eras of country music,
and they played some of all of them.

And the 2 Will The Circle Be Unbroken albums had some the best
"pure country" players joining them gladly.

If Jimmy Rogers could play with Louis Armstong,
why can't those that follow play what they want
while drawing on their and OUR country roots music.

I know the Dead have many stylistic enemies, but some of their stuff can ONLY be called country music.

Some of you seem to write them all off like heritics,
because they ALSO played stuff other than
Hank, George, Porter, Ray, Mel and Lefty, etc.

Funny I can note several "Pure Country" stars
who also did some early rock stuff,
before Nashville decided,
rather arbitrarilly to " rebrand" country music.

If you close out artists because some of their stuff,
isn't like your personal idols,
then musically only YOU lose.
They done did their thang.
And God love'm for not being afraid
to do it their way.

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 15 August 2006 at 03:13 AM.]

Les Pierce · Post by **Les Pierce** » 15 Aug 2006 12:19 pm

Great post. Very informative. A lot of good discussion, and no casualties, as far as I'm concerned.

As to the original post:

Flash back to '69, '70, when most of us were actually exposed to "Contry/Rock" via the Eagles. I myself grew up listening to the country records my mom played, (Merle Haggard, Marty Robbins, Johnny Cash, etc), along with rock radio that I played. (In those days, The Beatles, The Beach Boys, The Four Seasons, The Zombies, etc.) Two very distinct styles of music. I had no exposure to any of the acts mentioned, except for radio play only. (To me the Byrds meant Mr. Tamborine Man). I don't recall any crossover, and although country ran from metropolitan to hillbilly, and rock from psychedelic to motown, they never crossed, not on radio, anyway.

Then, in the middle of the likes of The Stories and the James Gang, along came the Eagles. Specifially "Peaceful Easy Feeling". At the time, to me, it sounded like bad country music. When you went to tell your playing buddies about it, what would you have called it, (seriously). They looked like rockers, but had a very definite country flavor to the music.

"Hey, check these guys out. They play a kind of country, rock music".

It seemed more down home, and less dangerous than the rock music of the time, to me, and once I got used to the loose sound of the music, I liked it.

This post has opened up a great deal of information about the history of the sound. All this came after the fact for me.

Rock look, rock attitude (somewhat rebellious), and very country flavored guitar bends, bass and drums, what would you have called it, (withhold the cheap shots, please).

It wasn't "Country", and it wasn't "Rock".

Les

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Strat,Tele
Dekley S-10

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 15 Aug 2006 2:57 pm

Les,

Did you know that the first Eagles album, with "Take it Easy" and "Peaceful", was recorded in England by Who producer Glynn Johns? I always thought that was an interesting piece of music trivia, seeing that the album sounded soooo American.

Rand Anderson · Post by **Rand Anderson** » 15 Aug 2006 4:43 pm

Chris
for some more Clarence White check out:

Muleskinner
Kentucky Colonels

these were bluegrass bands and Clarence really could flatpick....it was his roots...It is why Tony rice now owns his Martin without cutout soundhole.

His electric playing was quite phenomenal as well.....and if he wasn't country.....then why would Marty Stuart own his b-bender now.

As far as Gram goes the stones would never had infused Country into their blues based rock-n-roll, had he not taught them country and play Buck Owens, Webb Pierce and Faron Young records for them.

my favorite country-rock bands are in no order:

Burrito Brothers (sneaky P)
Commander Cody(Bobby Black anyone?)
Pure Prairie League(Vince Gill Rocks)
Marshall Tucker( a flute in country?)
POCO (rusty young)
Furay, Souther, Hillman
New Riders(Buddy Cage, Bobby Black, Jerry G.)
Byrds
Grateful dead
Manassas
Emmy Lou and Hot Band ( Hank DeVito On Steel)
Little Feat(Sneaky Pete)
John Hartford w/ Buddy Emmons
Desert Rose Band
Nitty Gritty
David Nelson
Waylon( when he plays rock tunes like Turn the Page or Rhiannon)
Jerry Jeff
Elvis
Hank Williams
Hank Williams Jr.
Hank Williams III
The Band w/ or w/o Dylan
Led Zeppelin (III)
Rolling Stones (exile on main street)

i'm sure there will be many more mutations of country to come.....
what in the heck is alt/country???????[This message was edited by Rand Anderson on 15 August 2006 at 06:21 PM.]

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 15 Aug 2006 4:56 pm

Thanks, Rand........I'm in the midst of tracking down some Kentucky Colonels right now.

Alt/Country is Generation X imitating the original country rockers. Gram Parsons is their demi-God.

I should know. I'm one of them. I need to rack my next CD in the Alt/Country section because it has pedal steel supporting roots-rock tunes. Where else do I go?

I think "Americana" is sort of the new Alt/Country now.

Rand Anderson · Post by **Rand Anderson** » 15 Aug 2006 5:13 pm

yeah i saw the 2005 Americana awards show on CMT last night. It was at the Opry.

Arlo Guthrie _ Closer w/ sing along "City of New Orleans" (actually a steve goodman song)
John Hartford - Lifetime Achievement Award
Emmy Lou - Sings/ presnts
Guy Clark - award
Steve Earl was there
John Prine won something

these all folks hang out in the bluegrass festival circle, but can also walk into GOO.

anyways, you should check out DVD called Heartworn Hiways

my country-rock band
<a href="http://www.dreadneck.net">Gravy<a/>

my alt/counrty americana band
<a href="http://www.nolanmckelvey.com">Nolan McKelvey & 33<a/>

Mike Winter · Post by **Mike Winter** » 15 Aug 2006 5:32 pm

Yes...Heartworn Highways is awesome. Check out an 18 (?) yr old Steve Earle.

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Mike
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Blue Moon Highway
(Country Music...and then some.)
www.bluemoonhighway.com

ZB Custom S-10 (#0509)

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 15 Aug 2006 5:44 pm

I don't think alt-country is an imitation of country rock. Most of it seems to take its cues more from traditional honky-tonk country, plus a post-punk, garage band aggressiveness and roughness.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 15 Aug 2006 6:18 pm

Blood on the Saddle, Blue Rodeo, Uncle Tupelo,
Wilco, Son Volt (the last three related), Lucinda Williams, Whiskeytown, Long Ryders, Lone Justice...Steve Earle and Joe Ely are even sometimes tossed in the alt country descriptive mix, although they'd be WAY on the lighter side. There are dozens more.

In a nutshell (and far oversimplified). "alt country" branched out from a hard-core L.A. punk band called "X" that had a side project doing country songs, but with a definite "attitude". Uncle Tupelo was considered the king of all alt country, with Wilco and Son Volt arising from its ashes. Thay all kind of took some Gram Parsons, blended with the Sex Pistols, turned everything up to "10" and let 'er rip.

Alt country isn't so much a style as an attitude. And the "label" is a corporate term; once there was a name for it, many of the bands that hatched the genre got out, refusing to play the money/coporate/pigeonhole/marketing game.

As far as the Eagles go, as Ronstadt's backup band they were superb, but when the first album came out many of us who were on the edges of the country-rock scene in the late 60's/early 70's thought they were really watered-down country "pop". "Desperado" was better, in that it had a theme to it...then when Joe Walsh arrived (and actually earlier, when Bernie Leadon Left) they simply became another corporate-sponsored rock band who played a few country-oriented songs, in the view of a lot of rock fans at the time. I really don't know where country fans saw them, or if they even noticed them at all.

The "American Cosmic Music" vision at that point was pretty well forgotten, until Gram's posthumous resurgence as a mystic character and huge influence (even with limited recording history and a notoriously awful stage presence).

Sidebar - Rand, Marty owning Clarence's guitar doesn't have a lot to do with Clarence's style so much as Marty 1) learned a lot of bluegrass from Clarence as a kid, and 2) has a habit of collecting "Star Guitars". It IS nice to see it out being played. It's a bummer that h added that dumb E-bender, though. That guitar should have been left alone, played and just maintained. One mystery remains - where the pickups went that Red Rhodes installed in it. They were gone when Marty got it. They (and one James Burton had) were the prototypes for Red's VHTBX boost-coil bridge pikups. Clarence's would be the holy grail of Tele pickups if it could be found.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 15 August 2006 at 07:24 PM.]

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 15 Aug 2006 6:41 pm

Yes, David, good point. I just threw that description off the top of my head. Generation X has a lot of different 80's influences that gel with the country influences. Ryan Adams, for example, cites Morrissey as an influence. So yes, there are other elements going on. And I don't see in the alt/country players the same level of expertise as their forefathers chops-wise. The song seems paramount in their performances. When I think alt/country, I think Wilco right away.

Jim, nice to see you mentioning Blue Rodeo, my buds from Canada. I go back to the late-80's with these guys. I was 17 the first time I opened for them. Did you know that Wilco pedal steel player Bob Egan is now in Blue Rodeo? Bob and I have performed together several times, and are now friends and steel buddies. He has come to my house and adjusted my steel, and played with my band "Brothers In Stereo" last winter, where he unveiled his then-new custom-built Fessenden 12-string Uni. Great guy and mean player.

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Carter D10
Peavey Session 400
Goodrich LDR
Boss DD3
Peterson V-Sam

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 15 Aug 2006 7:33 pm

'Heartworn Highways'....

Check out Russ Hicks amazing playing on Barefoot Jerry's 'Two Mile Pike'. The camera work's a bit 'artsy' but there some nice shots of his hands....

RR

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 15 Aug 2006 8:18 pm

Chris - I last saw them several years ago in San Diego when Kim Deschamps was playing steel - no picks and I think barefoot! Great guys, met them after the show and somehow ended up on the tour bus jamming for a while. A great but little known band in the US, it seems. I mentioned them specifically because they get omitted from so many alt-country lists, and were really one of the best and probably most listeneable to people outside the more "punk" arena.

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 16 Aug 2006 7:41 am

No surprise to me that you jammed with them, Jim. They're a very musicial bunch of guys who are always happy to meet other liked-minded musicians. I've had some great times with these guys. Greg Keelor sang background vocals on my first solo album back in '97. We had a ball. Blue Rodeo is a national institution here in Canada.

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 16 Aug 2006 9:31 am

.[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 16 August 2006 at 02:46 PM.]

Chris LeDrew · Post by **Chris LeDrew** » 16 Aug 2006 11:02 am

*[This message was edited by Chris LeDrew on 16 August 2006 at 04:24 PM.]

John Billings · Post by **John Billings** » 16 Aug 2006 12:02 pm

From Harris: "I was the audience he wanted to reach.Gram's writing brought his own personal generation's poetry and vision into the very traditional format of country music, and he came up with something completely different."

From Parsons: "I think pure country includes rock and roll...You can call it rock and roll or you can call it country music. I was brought up in the South, and I never knew the difference between Negro gospel music and country music; it was all just music to me...I never understood that, and I've never been able to get into the "further" label of country-rock. It just doesn't make sense to me. How can you define something like that? I just say this: It's music. Either it's good or it's bad; either you like it, or you don't"

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 16 Aug 2006 1:02 pm

.[This message was edited by Ron Sodos on 16 August 2006 at 02:47 PM.]

Ben Jones · Post by **Ben Jones** » 16 Aug 2006 1:18 pm

Ive learned alot from this thread and am now gonna go and listen to alot of the artists mentioned as well as try and find that book jim mentioned. So at least one person got something out of this thread...and I'd venture a few other people did as well, even if it was just enjoying a lively discussion.
I missed all the stuff these cats are talking about, so this thread is an education for me not a waste of time. I agree that "labels" can become a bit tedious and confining, but there's quite of bit of good analysiss and information here.
Rock on. or twang on if you prefer.

Chris House · Post by **Chris House** » 16 Aug 2006 1:33 pm

*[This message was edited by Chris House on 16 August 2006 at 08:25 PM.]

Ron Sodos · Post by **Ron Sodos** » 16 Aug 2006 1:47 pm

Agreed!