Playing live without amps

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 18 Dec 2005 6:28 am

Whewwwwwwww..

My eyeballs are burning after reading this post. Having done studio work, live PA work and now playing in a band, I see some advantages of a modified direct system. Darvin is on the right track IMHO. Where we differ is I go direct to the mains from my Stereo Steel but still have the speakers set up on stage for reference. Not everyone is using the ear bud system although I am moving in that direction hopefully to prevent hearing loss. Our sound guy is a musician and I have watched him work the board. He is very good at it and just does not sit there like a bump on a log. He works the faders and does get us a good sound. As far as losing your flexibility for tonal changes etc I still have control over reverb, tone etc as our guy does not do too much processing to the sound of any of the instruments.

Remember that even if you are micing speakers that the sound guy can totally change your sound if he wants to. What he can't change is whatever coverage you get from your speaker, but anything going through the mains is fair game for him to change.

Moral of the story, be nice to your sound guy

. Also, go out in the room and listen to the sound when you are not playing to get an idea of the acoustics of the room. You might need to change some of your own parameters first to get a good sound.

Happy Holidays to all.

Mark T.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 18 Dec 2005 8:01 am

"Personally I've had it with guitarists or bass players who start the gig at "3" and finish it at "5""

Two points:

1. If a guitarist is playing with his amp on "3" he sounds like garbage from the start, and is another victim of "too much amp" syndrome. Guitar amps (tube ones, anyway) sound their best when running close to flat out, which is why a guitarist should always use the smallest amp possible for the venue and run it at 8-10. That'll get the nest sound, plus hee won't be able to raise the volume level much.

2. It's usually drummers that cause the volume problems. finding a drummer with excellent control is difficult at best. The drummers I've used over the last 10 years or so could all play full-bore at a volume level so low acoustic instruments could be heard without mic'ing at practice. THAT'S a good drummer.

Lastly - even if the sound guy can srew up your mic'd amp tone, at least you have some control over the raw "product". With direct inject you are helpless, and the digital emulator boxes are NO help whatsoever in getting a realistic live sound. the DO work OK for recording - but live there's just something that "goes away" - dynamics seem to get lost.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 18 Dec 2005 10:52 am

If I had to do that, I'd sell all my crap and quit playing.. Saw a concert by a major Christian artist at a stadium venue a few years back and it was a such sterile lifeless tone.. just like a stereo.. NO soul, NO character.. NO mistakes, sterile sound at its worst....

Yes the "silent stage" theory works well for sound men and fans of ultra clean, solid state ,digital, noise free ,"CD Quality" sound , but you can have it, cause I sure don't want it... when my amp is not welcome neither am I... Keep those tubes hot and the knobs cranked or just plain keep it. Don't we have enough sterlie sound in our modern, digital, solid state, musical environment? Must we REALLY give OUR amps,OUR tone,Our character and individual expression to the sound man for HIM to interpret and present to the crowd in a live setting???,,,

Take my amp away??? Better have a BIG gun, and be a LOT tougher than me, and bring plenty of LARGE friends too.
Just what we need,, new and better ways to get a more "canned" sound... If thats the way live music is headed, my wood stove will be getting fed by Carter,Williams, and Fender products a piece at a time.... grrr..... bob

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 18 Dec 2005 11:22 am

Jim,- my "3" to "5" wasn't meant to be taken literally, just an example of how many musicians suffer from bad sound discipline on stage and often have nobody but themselves to blame if the sound out suffers..

Steinar

------------------
www.gregertsen.com

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 18 Dec 2005 11:23 am

Gee Bob tells us how you really feel!!

I have to agree, I have spent 33 years working on sound that makes me happy, the sound man is going to "fix" it in 2 minutes, NOT.

After 7 years I just now got out sound man to understand "clean and clear and hard" bass notes on the steel. Everyone says the steel sounds much better now.

Larry Behm

Tom Campbell · Post by **Tom Campbell** » 18 Dec 2005 11:50 am

Playing live is just that...LIVE (not pseudo live)! There just aren't that many professional sound people available. Most church environments pick someone from the congeration who might want to "give-it-a shot"...i.e. uncle Max or grandma Tilly!!! New technology doesn't mean its better or usable in all situations...(by all situations I mean qualified personnel to employ it).

John Ciano · Post by **John Ciano** » 18 Dec 2005 1:51 pm

I really appreciate everyones input on this subject. As we tally the votes, generally those in favor are sound engineers, players that do the band sound, and one that can cut off the allowance and ground the sound man if his steel is under mixed. I've been trying (and not very successfully) to hide the fact that I am a nattering nabob of negativity on playing without amps so I am especially grateful for those who articulated my feelings better than I could. Comments that reflect my experience and need to be addressed for this system to work (and I paraphrase)
1)Larry: 33 years working on my sound... soundman 2 minutes...NOT!
2)Jim: Sound guy can screw-up (house mix) but at least we have control over the raw sound. With direct inject you have no control and are helpless.
3)Donny: Everything he said, especially your stuck with your sound once started.
4)JW: There is something wonderful about air being moved by an amp.
5)Special thanks to long time friend Bob Carlucci for saying exactly what I would say if my id was not ruled by my superego
and I could not control myself.
But I really want to be a good soldier. If we could hear from more players like Darvin who specifically figured out how to make this a satisfying creative environment please help me out. Kavetching is still more than welcome.

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 18 Dec 2005 2:18 pm

Interesting thread. A sound man's worth seems to ride on his objectivity and diplomatic skills, compromised *quickly* by his off-chance-but-rarely-unmeditated slur of any particular instrument.

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 18 Dec 2005 3:07 pm

quote
2)Jim: Sound guy can screw-up (house mix) but at least we have control over the raw sound. With direct inject you have no control and are helpless.

Is there anyone here who does not use a pre-amp or something before going direct? Or is there anyone who goes direct with only a direct box and nothing else?

I know lots of guys who bypass the amp, but use a pre-amp, equalizer, podxt, Genesis,etc and IMHO they are still capable of molding their sound and are not at total mercy of the sound guy.

Regards,

Mark T.

John Ciano · Post by **John Ciano** » 18 Dec 2005 3:23 pm

Good question Mark. I use the Pro-fex but the sound fed back to me in my headphones is beyond irritating. Does anyone have an opinion on using the Pro-fex or how to apply it to this application?

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 18 Dec 2005 4:01 pm

I know lots of guys who bypass the amp, but use a pre-amp, equalizer, podxt, Genesis,etc and IMHO they are still capable of molding their sound and are not at total mercy of the sound guy

Exactly. And on the occasions when I've gone direct through my POD, I've still used the same pedalboard that I use when playing through an amp.

Steinar

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 18 Dec 2005 5:42 pm

More food for thought...

If the sound coming back to your phones is not what you have dialed in then it could be time to have a chat with the sound guy.

A couple of things to check. Check the sound out before going to the gig. No amp? Check it at home if you are able to and if the tone is really been changed then talk to the sound guy.

Also, remember that the room acoutics are elminated in the headphone mix. There could be situations where the steel could sound muddy and a bunch of midrange eq is added to make the steel cut through the mix. Sad to say but this technique works, but the sound you get through the phones is going to represent that tone rather than the tone you are used to.

There alot of variables here and ideas. That could be why so many of us prefer amps at a gig. You are then hearing the "tone" at a source independent from the sound guy. If you use headphones, you might want to think about getting a small mixer, where you have the monitor feeds or the main feed, and then add some of the steel straight from your preamp. You could A-B them and get a better idea of what questions to ask the sound guy if the sound is vastly different.

Regards,

Mark T.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 18 Dec 2005 9:19 pm

That whatever intellegence it takes to understand ohms and watts and wires and knobs $:\$ "filters out any ability to distiguish between a Stratavarious and a garbage can being kicked down a flight of stairs".

The purest of ignorant, obtuse B.S.

A good sound man is harder to find than it should be,
but I strenuously object to the above.

The main issue is taking the time to really tune in the bands monitoring system
before a gig or tour.
Earbuds with a slight bit of stage leakage,
and a minimum of amps CAN be a great playing experience.

If there is a good matrix mixer, and the guy running it has good communication
with the band to subtley tweak it in.

This system can and should travel with the band,
A mini-automated board with global memory,
can gradually tune in to exactly the mix the band wants
and repeat it every night,
whiloe gradually adding slight tweaks as pickers request.

Then let front of house, deal with FOH.

L. Da Vince understood how to build fiording bridges,
war engines, hyelecopters, a spring powered automobile to -pull cannon cassons... and other engineering feats.

He could also create art on many levels.
One didn't cancel out the other.

Why should THAT be the different for a sound man?

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 18 Dec 2005 10:21 pm

"pre-amp, equalizer, podxt, Genesis,etc"

Mark - those things are not 1/10 the equal of a good amp. The are getting better all the time, bt did you bother to read my earlier posts about their effect on live sound?

Didn't think so.

Funny, but what you said is exactly the kind of thing that comes out of the mouths of soon to be fired "sound engineers (usually the guy who took high-school electronics and was president of the math club)."

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 18 Dec 2005 11:10 pm

The sound that comes from my speakers is MY
SOUND. I work hard at getting the sounds I want.
Running everything thru a common system just homogenizes the sound. Might as well plug in a CD and run it through those mains.
The mains are great for the vocals.
I like to associate the bass sound with the bass player, etc. Spread the sound around on the stage. This is my preference.

FWIW Had a drummer coupla months ago who wanted to run his mic'd drumkit thru the vocal system. 300 people venue, cocktail party of 55+. Get real.I plugged in his mixed sound to the vocal mixer, smiled, and turned it off. Everybody happy. Truth is stranger than fiction.

Ron

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 19 Dec 2005 3:43 am

Remember, headphones ARE speakers. There is some evidence that the "silent stage/earbud" setups are leading to MORE hearing loss rather than less, because the speakers small enough to use in earbuds just can't reproduce a full spectrum accurately. Consequently, people keep turning them up to try to hear frequencies that a speaker that small just can't generate.

Personally, I would NEVER put anything directly into my ear that's at the mercy of someone else's ability to manage pops and screeches and extreme transients. Hearing experts recommend that you never use earphones for more than an hour at a stretch without a break to allow the ear muscles to relax again, and no more than two hours a day overall? Impossible for me, but I do try to be careful.

I predict that by the time all the iPod mania settles, there are going to be billions and billions of profoundly deaf 40-year-olds. Read about the horror stories of people like Pete Townsend sometime; once you lose it, it's Bedtime for Bonzo.

mtulbert · Post by **mtulbert** » 19 Dec 2005 4:55 am

Jim...You are correct...I did not read the last line of your post. What you say makes sense..and I agree with you that the processers alone going direct will not be as good as those same devices running through an amp. However, I still feel that you do have some control of shaping the sound yourself.

A good example of what you said and what Ron reinforced is critically listening at the steel convention in Dallas. You can really hear the difference in the tone of the guitars from the amps when you sit up close and when the only sound you are hearing is from the PA. In many cases it is vastly different and in some pretty close.

I guess every gig is different and there are so many variables that it is impossible to have a cut and dry answer. I for one would rather have the sound come from amps and speakers with the PA helping it if needed rather than taking over completely. I do think that headphones can be a help as they do enable you to hear the entire band.

Will we have millions of hearing diaabled people? Perhaps, but it is a result of abuse of the ipods rather than using them. I have spent years in bands, in recording studios, and now playing out again and my hearing is as good as it was 30 years ago. Why? One of the best gadgets I ever bought was a Sound Pressure Level meter and I do use it to check out loudness at certain venues. You would be surprised at how loud 85 to 90 db is, and that is a level that will not cause prolonged hearing loss. The trick is to know when you are exceeding it.

With headphones, listen to something in the morning and determine where the volume level peak is. Mark is or memorize it. That should be a point where you never exceed. It will sound a whole lot softer after a while and the temptation is to crank up the sound. It is the nature of our ears to start shutting down when the sound is loud. If you stay at those levels, you should not have any problems.

With speakers and in the studio...much easier scenario. If the monitor level keeps rising and the high end eq is being added all night then you are going into the danger zone.

Of course if everyone did this there would be no 2000 watt systems in cars and SUV's.

Regards,

Mark T.[This message was edited by mtulbert on 19 December 2005 at 04:58 AM.]

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 19 Dec 2005 6:54 am

A properly sealed earbud can reproduce a full spectrum.

But if your EARS are already partly dead
or the ambient stage volume is STILL way too loud,
then some people tend turn it up too much.

You can listen to sound a proper levels ALL DAY LONG...with no loss of hearing.
Note... AT proper levels.
We do it EVERY DAY in the real world.

The hearing loss is if you listen for extended periods
at levels approaching point of pain -10 db.
Anybody wanna try my jackhammer without the headset on?

A good ear bud system should have a absolute output limiter
like an Aphex Compelor built in to prevent
inadvertent transients beyond proper listening levels.
For both your ears and the drivers in the earbuds.

I also note that 80% of feedback is onstage monitoring issues.
Earbuds and headphones take that out of the equation.

I agree I like my amp sound, but then again I also
like a sustainable ( livable) on stage volume
MORE than my amp sound
[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 19 December 2005 at 06:58 AM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 19 Dec 2005 7:08 am

Sidebar concerning iPod volume:

The European versions have a volume limiter installed to prevent high-volume listening, which is a great idea. Of course, 8 jillion website have patches for circumventing it. Heck, I'd like to *install* iit on my son's iPod! No idea why the US versions don't have the limiter.

JAMES BANKS · Post by **JAMES BANKS** » 19 Dec 2005 7:22 am

Darvin, I am not a pro sound man, but I was recently given the job of audio video director at church and I have played on a bad system with a make shift ear bud monitor system going direct to the board. I have played lead and steel that way and it was awful, but with the new Aviom system, it is wonderful. Our musicians are excited about the change. I tried to get the church to okay the aviom purchase 3 years ago but they did not see the need. Fortuneatly, some guy decided to donate a new system and now everybody can hear the diffence. I have the been the receipent of 4 or 5 of the CD's you mentioned and the sound of your steel and everybody else on the stage is great. Yes, I prefer the amp on stage. The idea of running off the drummer and bass player and telling the lead guy to go acoustic cannot always happen. Just because the steel player can control his volume does not mean others can.. Church situations are much different than a club.

James

Myron Smith · Post by **Myron Smith** » 19 Dec 2005 10:28 am

SAD SAD SAD, What in the world makes all you guys think that what's coming out of your amp, is coming out in the house???? The only one that is happy with that sound is you. The sound man can still distroy your wonderful tone. As far as no control from the being direct, run though an EQ. A good effect rack, get a good mix in your pnones, & Pray the sound man will leave it be, Just like you do with your amp. Be real guys unless your running sound, with your amp or without it, it's not your sound!!!!!

John Ciano · Post by **John Ciano** » 19 Dec 2005 9:27 pm

I'm starting to think I need a shrink more than a good sound man. Can you guys still play well when what you hear sounds like crap? Are the Muses inspiring you to play beyond what you are capable of? Are you able to put across a song like Stephan Grappelli where you can almost hear the words in his playing? Isn't steel guitar hard enough to play under optimal conditions? My way of compensating is to basically memorize everything I have to play
because I cannot rely on "just feelin'" it. When "feelin'it" you are reacting to what you just played, and let me tell you what I hear in the headphones is not very inspiring : Then it becomes like a freight train going down hill with no brakes. I sit there with a facial expression like I'm having a hard time opening up a pickel jar,
instead of bouncing around behind my guitar like the guy who guy plays the instument with only four strings, I become ridged, all my muscles become tight, and the Jeff Newman hand position that I have in my basement turns to grip that can crush a Volkswagon. I guess this is the wrong year to quit sniffing glue!

Terry Wood · Post by **Terry Wood** » 20 Dec 2005 1:17 pm

Well, I played 3 or 4 times like that. Myron Smith is so right. I played a Big Show in Branson, MO years ago and thought I was sounding great but the sound man who was not even a musician destroyed my tone. I hated it!

Next, years later I had two good friends so I thought, who hired me to do a gig and they talked me into going direct into the house sound system. I don't play with them anymore.

Then I also played in my home church like that once too. Never again! I refuse to play with my tone compromised. Yet, sometimes you may get caught in a situation where you have too do that. I am glad my livelihood isn't relying on those who try to control my sound anymore. I feel for you all who have to live with unqualified, so-called musical sound technicians.

My two centavos!

Woody

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 20 Dec 2005 1:26 pm

"SAD SAD SAD, What in the world makes all you guys think that what's coming out of your amp, is coming out in the house????"

Dude, the point is the sound man has to have good raw materials to start with. You can't turn lousy sound (i.e. direct) into good sound. And while you CAN turn good sound (a well dialed-in amp/effects setup) into junk through incompetance, at least you are starting with the right sound.

John Ciano · Post by **John Ciano** » 20 Dec 2005 3:07 pm

Once again thanks to all who participated in this discussion. Yous guys is da best! (a little Jersey lingo here) At least now I know that I am not the only one challenged by this situation. But of the posts that were positive there were few specifics as to exactly what equipment will make playing without amps more than something we just have to tolerate. Darvin was kind enough to share his set-up and it was most appreciated. Does any one else, maybe you Nashville dudes, have a set-up that they really like?