All beginners and students please read this.

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 1 Nov 2005 4:46 pm

The great tenor saxophonist and jazz legend Sonnny Rollins is known for playing obscure standards, like "Toot Toot Tootsie", and "I'm an Old Cowhand". I think he selected songs like these because they were old nostalgic songs that were out of vogue, but mostly because they had melodies and changes that he liked and he could riff off of in interesting ways. "Toot Toot Tootsie" is kind of corny and square, but when Sonny Rollins plays it it's very cool.[This message was edited by Cliff Kane on 01 November 2005 at 04:48 PM.]

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 1 Nov 2005 6:06 pm

He also recorded a great version of Tennessee Waltz.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 1 Nov 2005 9:12 pm

"Jom, of you feel compelled to try to learn this beast without benifit of the knowledge and experience of those who came before, I'm, not going to try to force you to do other wise, but I think you're making a mistake."

I never said that either.

What I tried to express is that the commercially available educational materials are dated and limited in scope. It'd be nice to know if stuff by Newman or Wright go in different directions more relevant for me personally, but given the pricing and the lack of availability for "perusing" in a local store I might not find out.

As for joining a country band to "learn the instrument", I'm sorry - but I won't spend a couple years playing music I don't like just because it has worked as a method for somebody else. I've walked into a couple studio sessions, listened to the roughs, and politely declined to participate. It's a matter of having some musical ethics as far as I'm concerned. I don't play stuff I don't like. If it takes longer, so be it - I'm being true to myself and not suffering through innumerable sets of dislikeed music just because I might learn a couple things. I find that tact deplorable, and like I said - a sellout.

As far as studying those who came before me, I do listen to Sneaky pete's eclectic stuff, Rusty Young's rock jams with Poco, Buddy Cage with NRPS...and any of them plays country with a twist when they play it, Pete especially. A good reason I also play a Fender 8-string - I like that tone and I hear no limitations at all applicable to what I want to do. But I'll also learnn Chantays tunes, some Cream stuff, a little Albert Collins, and try to adapt to some prog rock like Yes and Gentle Giant.

Most of you have no idea what I just said. But I can guarantee you that "The Banks of the Ohio" is not the shortcut method to where I want to go.

If I miss a few (or a lot) of players because I don't listen to country, I don't consider it a great loss. I played guitar for years without kowtowing to Don Rich, or....heck, I don't even know most of the country player's names.

Anyway, this is really material for a different thread - so to return to the topic, my feeling is that anybody should be free...and willing!....to sell off old instructional materials, especially the stuff not available in stores. I might give some of us newer players a chance to find something out there more current than the two commercial products (without breaking the bank), both of which seem real dated to me.

Mark Fasbender · Post by **Mark Fasbender** » 2 Nov 2005 12:26 am

Jim....... You wouldnt happen to have Interview and want to trade for the Official Live Album, would you? I love old country and also Gentle Giant, What the heck is the matter with me?

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Got Twang ?

Mark

Also........ What about Gentle Giant's cover of Sweet Georgia Brown? Must really suck being one of the most innovative groups ever and playing a dusty,mouldy,piece of out dated junk like that. The best of country music is about serving the song and that never goes out of style. The gist of country can be taken in and enhance any style. I have played just about everystyle of music professionally in my life and my playing has never been as musical , intuitiveand creative as it has been since I began to seriously dig in to country music about 20 years ago. Take it in and make it your own.

[This message was edited by Mark Fasbender on 02 November 2005 at 12:48 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 2 Nov 2005 6:04 am

Gentle Giant; a wonderful band. Takes me back.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 2 Nov 2005 1:48 pm

Sweet Georgia Brown is kind of a universal standard. Not like the Wreck of ol' 97....and itt was also done as a gag novelty item, not as a "serious" teaching tool.

No comparison. Try to put things in context.

I think I have Interview - on vinyl though.

Glad to know a few prog rock folks live here.[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 02 November 2005 at 10:33 PM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 5 Nov 2005 4:52 am

How about donating used instructional materials to b0b/the forum? It would be a clearing-house for materials to be passed on, and a way to add a few bucks to the coffers.
Could anyone object to that?

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 5 Nov 2005 6:19 am

That right there could cause more of a problem rather than less - I could see specifically why Buddy Emmons, Joe Wright, Jeff Newman's widow, Herb Steiner, Herby Wallace, Neil Flanz etc. could object if I were to donate my old courses to b0b to sell and people could buy them used, all in one place with no money going to the authors. I guess b0b could get clearance from each author for each course, but that's an increase in his workload too. And I figure, maybe he does enough for us already?

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 5 Nov 2005 6:42 am

Dave, I find your other opinions very cogent, and this is a compelling argument against my idea.
I was not here.
I didn't have this idea.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Nov 2005 6:59 am

I'm not only a creator of steel guitar lesson material, I'm a consumer of this stuff also. I collect it for the information it contains that would help me in my private teaching, as well as stuff (like Jim Loessberg's or Doug Jernigan's, for example) I learn from as well.

I personally can't see getting rid of any steel guitar instruction that was valuable to the player initially. But like I said, I have a library of music texts, and steel guitar instructional material specifically. If something is totally worthless, (and I've seen some like the bogus "tuning chart" with the painting of the steel player on the front

) or a duplicate, I can see dumping it.

My experience has been that there's always stuff you can find you've missed if you go back to a course a year or so after first go-through.

I'm a collector by nature, so that's my thing. Probably the guys that collect this stuff already agree with me and those that aren't interested in accumulating things don't think much of it. YMMV.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Nov 2005 7:21 am

I'll admit to also doing what Herb does, but I know a lot of people aren't or we wouldn't see used materials for sale. I *have* sold stuff in the past that I've gone through, found worthwhile but knew it wasn't something I needed to constantly refer to.

What I won't do is buy something, make myself a copy, and sell the original. That's a violation of copyright laws, and I'd consider it theft.

But if someone wants to sell used materials without keping copies, there should be NO problem with it. It's not going to put a huge dent in anyone's wallet.

Sidebar - the Paypal issue has been intertwined with this. FWIW, I was interested in Keen Williams materials but couldn't order because he didn't take Paypal.

A few days ago, he set up a Paypal account....and got an order from me. I need all the materials I can get right now, as II'm on a "crash course"....so others who don't take Paypal might want to consider that issue as well (I also ordered stuff frrom b0b - another Paypal account user).[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 05 November 2005 at 07:25 AM.]

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Nov 2005 7:45 am

Oh yeah,... I take PayPal.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jim Blakey · Post by **Jim Blakey** » 5 Nov 2005 7:55 am

I think you really need to stick to a 6 string guitar and forget about playing things not related to the pedal steel guitar.Its not intended to be played as a rock, classical, or whatever music. You start talking about Garcia and the stones and all the other off the wall stuff, you need to try some other guitar.Just my thoughts, not intended to make you madd or whatever.

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 5 Nov 2005 1:20 pm

Hmmm....I always thought Hank Williams was the first rock star.

Jim Blakey · Post by **Jim Blakey** » 5 Nov 2005 2:40 pm

Your not gonna believe this, but they probley don't know who Hank was.There I go again, telling my age.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Nov 2005 3:23 pm

"I think you really need to stick to a 6 string guitar and forget about playing things not related to the pedal steel guitar.Its not intended to be played as a rock, classical, or whatever music. You start talking about Garcia and the stones and all the other off the wall stuff, you need to try some other guitar.Just my thoughts, not intended to make you madd or whatever."

If that wasn't a joke, it was probably the most narrow-minded thing I've read in years.

Who makes the decision what the instrument is "intended" for? The player, that's who. If you don't care for rock steel, or blues, or classical, or jazz - don't listen to it. YOU control the on-off switch. But you darned well don't tell people what they can and can't play on a musical instrument. What, are you one of those folks that feels it's only meant for country?

What a narrow-minded comment.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 5 Nov 2005 3:37 pm

Look, I'm always the first to say that the steel is not a country insrument but rather a musoical instrument, capable of playing any kind of music, and I've put my money where my mouth is by recording music that's as far away from country as you can get.

HOWEVER, The pedal steel guitar is a product of a tradition that deserves respect, as do the great players who dedicated their lives to it. To dismiss that tradition and those players so cavalierly is a sign of arrogance and ignorance, and to suggest that anybody who honors that tradition is compromising their integrity is just plain offensive.

Bobby, I think it's time to close this thread.

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 5 Nov 2005 3:45 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>quote:
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1. Why would you play music you don't like?
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It helps you to meet girls you don't like.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would you want to play music you don't like to help you meet girls you don't like? That seems kind of pointless.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Nov 2005 3:56 pm

"HOWEVER, The pedal steel guitar is a product of a tradition that deserves respect, as do the great players who dedicated their lives to it. To dismiss that tradition and those players so cavalierly is a sign of arrogance and ignorance, and to suggest that anybody who honors that tradition is compromising their integrity is just plain offensive."

Mike, you can't be talking about me, as I've dismissed or denigrated none of the players - neither have I been arrogant about any particular method of study. I just said I'm not familiar with them and I don't have an interest in playing country music. You feel studying the great country players is an excellent way to progress on the instrument. I respect that opinion, but I can't be true to my heart or my music and take that path. I might take a longer road my wayy - but it's MY road, and there's nothing wrong with that.

But as far as compromising integrity, I will admit to pointing that out. "Selling out" (i.e. playing stuff you don't like for money or for a learning experience) is quite common. I find it personally offensive and refuse to go there. If it works for you and you don't mind playing material yu hate, more power to you. I think it's degrading and prostituting oneself, but that's just my opinion.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Nov 2005 4:18 pm

"Selling out" (i.e. playing stuff you don't like for money or for a learning experience) is quite common. I find it personally offensive and refuse to go there. If it works for you and you don't mind playing material yu hate, more power to you. I think it's degrading and prostituting oneself, but that's just my opinion.

I'm relieved you've got such a high opinion of us full-time pickers in the trenches, Jim.

Unfortunately, the vast majority of full-time professional musicians are those who earn their livelihood from being in a service business. The nature of the business is one that has to cater to folks in a hiring position who require music other than the personal favorites of the players being hired.

I've been there, and I like a wide variety of musics. I never considered it self-degradation or prostitution; I simply called it "my job, working for a living."

God bless the child who can indulge his caprices with only music he chooses to play.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 November 2005 at 04:20 PM.]

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 5 Nov 2005 4:28 pm

If it works for you and you don't mind playing material yu hate,...

Just out of curiousity how does my statement that "country music isn't my thing (and never was)" translate into hating it?

And, does practicing scales or other less than thrilling technical excercises also constitute selling out?[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 05 November 2005 at 04:30 PM.]

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Nov 2005 4:49 pm

Mike - hating was too strong a word, for which I apologize. But playing stuff you don't like just for the learning experience isn't exactly "art" - it's "business". I'm not in th music business any longer - I do it strictly for the emotional and artistic outlet. I had my prfessional shots, turned them down due to family situations (a dad dying of Lou Gherig's disease over a 10-year period, among others) and realized it's a little too late to do this full-time.

Look, I've done studio time with material I didn't particularly care for...but on a limited basis. I wouldn't play it "for years". And no, scales and excercises are not selling out - they are part of the overall language of the instrument. A major scale is used nearly every type of music in one way or another. Somebody's "I fall to pieces" break isn't.

It's really not that complicated.

Back to Herb - I admire ALL studio cats who can hit the mark on unfamiliar tunes, create "hooks" on the fly, and be the "building blocks" of songs.

I'm admittedly not one of them. I don't have the background or (I feel) the talent. And at my age, I have no desire to learn a musical style I don't particularly care for to learn to play an instrument that is capable of many different things. If some people think it's a mistake not learning through the Jeffran courses, a country instructor, the two "Bibles" soo be it - please respect my desire to focus more on MY music instead.

I am getting some exposure to steelers I've never heard of. Some of it I likee, some I don't (and not so much the steel as the material). Please don't think I'm disrespectful of the pioneers of the instrument - one of them has become a friend (at least I hope so). But I 1. don't have the budget to go out and buy thousands of dollars of CD's, 2. wouldn't know where to start, and 3. kind if feel reticent about spending money on music I don't prefer just to hear one instrument.

I hope that makes sense and clarifies my position a bit. Absolutely no disrespect to Mike, Herb and several others, who while we don't agree on everything at least we keep our minds open. As far as others who are dead-set against everything that's not traditional country, we're probably going to remain at permanent loggerheads. Just let me do my thing and you go do yours.

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 5 Nov 2005 6:04 pm

And no, scales and excercises are not selling out - they are part of the overall language of the instrument. A major scale is used nearly every type of music in one way or another. Somebody's "I fall to pieces" break isn't.

Of course, you are absolutely entitled to your view. But as fine a cross-style guitar player as Roy Buchanan would probably have disagreed. On his first record, he played the heavily steel-influenced break on "I'm a Lonesome Fugitive" note for note. On that same record, his version of "Sweet Dreams" drips classic pedal steel breaks, and his pedal steel influences were far-reaching. I've never heard anybody question Roy's blues and rock credentials, but it's obvious that he had a deep understanding of steel guitar breaks just like this. That is a big part of what made him so great, IMO.

Mike and Herb already made my other points in entirety - I was ready to post, but they already hit every point. Jim - most people here are only trying to help. Of course you should go your own way. I rail against the "steel is, by God, only for country music, and you're a blasphemer if you dare play anything else" mentality also. But you never know - like good blues, good country is deep and emotional music, and it may just grow on you if you give it a bit of a chance. Or maybe not.

Cliff Kane · Post by **Cliff Kane** » 5 Nov 2005 6:35 pm

Too many labels......it all comes from Africa and the mountains. In the words of Frank Zappa: "Shut up and play yer gitar".
Funny, this started about supporting each other. Now it's sounding quite divisive...I don't think anyone intends ill will, but it's funny how on-line communication sometimes tends to veer in this direction. I think if we were all talking face to face this conversation would have a better tone.

May there be twang and harmony on Earth.

Jim Sliff · Post by **Jim Sliff** » 5 Nov 2005 8:23 pm

Dave, you must have missed the fact that I'm (or was) a B-bender guitar player, and ripped off steel licks all the time.

I was just ripping off Sneaky Pete, Buddy Cage, Red Rhodes, Rusty Young and Jerry Garcia instead of Buddy Emmons, Jimmy Day (who I still don't think I've ever heard).

Maybe there's a geographic thing entering into this as well - the "country-rock" of the late 60's/early 70's is fun, experimental, crazy stuff, even when they were doing "classic" songs. So when I hear Buck Owens, I hear the Everly Brothers and Beach Boys. When I hear the old Nashville stuff with 20 background singers, dripping in echo, it sounds like Lawrence Welk music with a steel guitar break here and there. When I hear the NEW Nashville stuff I hear watered-down Eagles imitations (The Eagles were weak enough all by themselves IMO) and other 70's rock.

Roy Buchanan? Good when he wanted to be, absolutely unlistenable at other times - and his tone could peel paint off a house. Two players I can only take in extremely small doses - Roy and Danny Gatton. Lots of repetitive chops and horrid tone IMO. I'll take Mike Bloomfield, please.

Oh - and to get back on the original subject, I'll be glad to absorb the playing of some of the greats - so anyone with used copies of Jeff Newman or Joe Wright's stuff and a Paypal account, let me know. And i've ordered Buddy Emmon's chord contruction stuff and a couple other "name" things that concentrate on intros,fills and endings. Those are likely "adaptable" to any style.

Beats the heck out of "Wreck of the ol' 97" and "Grandfather's Clock".[This message was edited by Jim Sliff on 05 November 2005 at 08:31 PM.]