What player on 'Our Last Date'?

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 22 May 2005 8:56 am

Anyone know who that steel player is on the Conway Twitty version of 'Our Last Date' ? I know that John Hughey played with Conway but that doesn't sound like him to me at all. Or at least least it sounds nothing like the work he's done with Vince Gill which is my point of reference.
This actually relates a little to Marty Pollard's 'Why Do People Hate Steel Guitar?' post. I love the sound of Pedal steel and yet I find the playing on that recording exaggerated and almost a bit hokey sounding. For someone who has no big love for our instrument to begin with I think that that type of overstated playing would turn them off it altogether.
It seems like playing styles have evolved an awful lot in later years. The steel playing you hear on most newer releases seems to be more subtle. Vibrato is not as wide, intonation is more precise generally and the overall effect is maybe less theatrical.
Whoever the player was on that cut, I mean them no offence. If it was indeed Mr. Hughey he is one of my very favorite players and I've spent many hours hanging on every lick he's played with Vince Gill. This has more do with how styles have changed through the years.

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 22 May 2005 9:08 am

John Hughey...

Stephan Franck · Post by **Stephan Franck** » 22 May 2005 1:05 pm

I think I know what you mean, and I know you mean no disrespect to those players, but I'll respectfully submit this:

The thing is, taste and trends change very fast in any form of popular art. Just look at acting or film making in general. Try showing a Roy Rodgers western of a Belugosi Dracula movie, or for that matter, even a hitchcock movie, to a kid today. They will find it corny and hokey too, and painfully slow.

The ideas are still strong, but the execution, conventions, etc, are 60 years old. There's no way around it.

So back to the original subject, the simple fact that you can still listen at all to tracks like that 40, 50, 60 years later, is a testament to how great they really were.

Also, remember, when you operate within a well codified genre--say honky tonk, the boundaries of the genre never really change, so over the years, the players have nowhere to go but deep. That's why today, you have super players like Brent Mason or Paul Franklin, taking those exact same three chord songs to always higher levels of imagination and execution.

Peace
Stephan

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www.mojaveroad.net

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 22 May 2005 1:41 pm

That's exactly what I mean Stephan. Obviously what Mr Hughey played on that song ( more specifically that pronounced wahhh-wah that is repeated on the second part of the intro...man!, that's strong medicine even for a country purist like me) was very much in keeping with the times and just what Conway Twitty and the producer were looking for. I'm not at all familiar with John's other work with Conway Twitty since he wasn't a singer I followed. But his playing on many of Vince Gill's songs just makes the hair stand up on the back of my neck. It's easily of the top four or five steel sounds that I'd like to be able to imitate.
[This message was edited by Bill Miller on 22 May 2005 at 02:42 PM.][This message was edited by Bill Miller on 22 May 2005 at 02:42 PM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 22 May 2005 3:07 pm

You talking about this??>>
Last Date
If so; yes that is the Man himself as Steve described.
Also; have you ever heard John play Western Swing?? He don't sound like the Hughey we're used to; he sounds like "Monster John" if you ask me.
John Hughey can play and immulate anything he wants; to capture the right texture in any song.

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Ricky Davis

Rebel™ and Ricky's Audio Clips
www.mightyfinemusic.com
Email Ricky: sshawaiian@austin.rr.com

[This message was edited by Ricky Davis on 22 May 2005 at 04:07 PM.]

Charles Curtis · Post by **Charles Curtis** » 22 May 2005 3:10 pm

I would certainly like to be able to imitate John. I'll bet Conway enjoyed his playing more than anyone. Can you imagine singing and being backed up by John? I don't know; if I could my phone would probably be ringing constantly.

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 22 May 2005 3:24 pm

As Rickey said above, that was John Hughey on Last Date. He was doing what he did for 20 years, and that is furnishing the identifying style of Conway Twitty's material.

Never should anyone assume that John is a one-dimensional steel player....He sees his job as to do what is necessary to support the job at hand, and his contribution to the recording of "Last Date" was so typical of the CT sound that he was given an extraordinary play-time on the recording.

The stylistic playing of John Hughey does not deserve criticism, but instead, deserves much more credit than he ever received for his innovational sound and contribution to the success of Conway Twitty.

www.genejones.com

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 22 May 2005 4:01 pm

What Gene said!I remember the first time I heard it...AWESOME!Those Conway records were so great...and John's playing was one of the major ingredients...I love that stuff...but to each his own...man!That tone!And that little fall-off into the vocal!I got to see them do it live around the time it came out...scarred me for LIFE![This message was edited by Steve Hinson on 22 May 2005 at 05:08 PM.]

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 22 May 2005 4:14 pm

I think what John was doing on that cut was "pushing" the sound, stylistically, as much as he could without going over the acceptable limit. What many "rock-steel idols" did was to go over the limit, either in parody or by sheer lack of talent. Unfortunately, the results are vaguely similar (to the uninitiated).

Now...before I get slammed....yes, some of the "rock idol" steelers did (eventually) become good players, but none of them were ever in John Hughey's league, IMHO.

Flame away!

Gary Carriger · Post by **Gary Carriger** » 22 May 2005 7:33 pm

Yeah....that's Hughey all right. Saw him live with Conway several times around So Tx. His playing simply blew me away. And what you hear on records is exactly what you would hear live. When they were a four piece, John also played guitar and piano parts, all on the steel.

I remember one night at Schroeder Hall (an institution in itself), Dickey Overby and I stood at the edge of the bandstand (on John's side)...listened and watched John play. Inspiring.
Gary

Gary

Peter Dollard · Post by **Peter Dollard** » 22 May 2005 7:41 pm

I became obsessed with the way John played that passage where he does what could only be described as a quivering, slipping, amazing transition to the four chord and called him about the session. He said Owen Bradley came out of the recording booth and actually stopped the session because he thought the recording tape was slipping. John said they had a fine laugh and went back to work...Peter

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 23 May 2005 2:50 am

John's intro on the "On Our Last Date" was a classic intro. This is one of his signature songs. In my opinion, Conway picked the right songs most of the time but the driving force behind Conway was John Hughey's steel playing. All you've got to do is listen to the intro, "I've Just Destroyed The World I'm Living In" and go from there. Yes, I'm a Hughey fan but I also like Emmons,Green,Rugg,Myrick and so many others. These guys layed the foundations for a lot of us that play now. I can't speak for anyone else personally but for me, I don't like anyone making negative comments about John's playing or any of the other guys' playing. Besides, I also think that the "Last Date" steel version will remain a part of steel history from now on.

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 23 May 2005 5:54 am

Miller. You must not have much experience slaving in a recording studio for years on end, doing what producers want, making noises that you would never make anyplace else, mostly playing in a style that is not your own, but what is asked of you to play to fit the moment.

I just happened to listen to that cut last night when I was playing a stack of 45s a fellow gave to me. Instead of critiqing the steel sound/style and thinking how wierd it was, I thought of the producers and how wierd THEY were. I also wondered if Floyd Cramer was OK with this since the vocals and the lyrics were not as top notch as Conway usually was. The key of the song pitched his vocals so high in spots I was almost cringing.

I think what you are hearing is Hughey playing in the style he was expected to play in keeping with the Conway sound that he had been a part of.

Stephen Winters · Post by **Stephen Winters** » 23 May 2005 6:48 am

"Last Date", along with many other Conway Twitty hits, are part of the reason I fell in love with Steel Guitar. Mr. Hughey did some of his finest work with Conway in my opinion. Not "hokey" at all....it was pure heaven.

Stephan Franck · Post by **Stephan Franck** » 23 May 2005 7:29 am

I don't think Bill was "criticizing" anyone.

He was just pointing out that taste changes, and that styles of playing evolve over time.

Top players like John Hughey keep evolving over the years, even though they were already great to start with. That's how they got on a path to greatness in the first place.

They're also able to adapt, give the artists and the producers what they want year after year. That's why they are the top players.

It's like looking back at your pictures from the 70's and smiling at your sideburns. There's nothing wrong with that. It don't mean I wasn't a handsome devil... I just looked funny is all

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www.mojaveroad.net
[This message was edited by Stephan Franck on 23 May 2005 at 08:31 AM.][This message was edited by Stephan Franck on 23 May 2005 at 08:32 AM.]

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 23 May 2005 1:50 pm

A number of people seem to have taken exception to the opinions I expressed in this post and several of you have rushed to John Hughey's defense. I really doubt that a steel guitar giant like John needs defending but I would like to apologize for any feathers that have been ruffled. In no way was I criticizing Mr. Hughey's playing, I only meant that the particular style he used on that cut isn't a personal favorite. I'm nuts about most everything else I've ever heard him play. And maybe if I'd heard that version of 'Our Last Date' when it was first released I'd have loved that too. I find Stephan's "like looking at old pictures" analogy to be very true.
In response to Hatcher, my entire studio experience consists of about 3 hours one afternoon last year...and that was in a pretty makeshift studio at that. I'm not a professional musician but that wasn't a prerequisite when I joined the forum and it still isn't as far as I know. I just stuggle along and wish I could play like John Hughey. [This message was edited by Bill Miller on 23 May 2005 at 02:51 PM.][This message was edited by Bill Miller on 23 May 2005 at 02:51 PM.]

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 23 May 2005 8:14 pm

If that cut from "Last Date" is hokey, well, I guess I'm just hokey. But I don't think either are true.

You know, you can't please all of the people all of the time. If playing around with the pitch like this turns some people off, so be it. This is emotional steel playing at its finest, IMO. The quivering vibrato and fall-off into the vocal are precisely and tastefully done, and fit perfectly with Conway's approach to the tune. People spend years hacking away trying to sound half that good.

Yes, some people don't like whiney country music. So what? I regularly run into people who sermonize me with this, but then if it's a blues guitar player doing crazy, weepy, steel-like guitar bends on a slow blues tune, these same people blather on about how 'soulful' it is. I've actually had hardcore blues/rock fans argue how great guys like Roy Buchanan and Danny Gatton were (I absolutely agree), but how they can't stand country artists like Conway or Merle Haggard (who they both covered, Roy with a note-to-note version of "I'm a Lonesome Fugitive", and Danny with Robert Gordon doing "It's Only Make Believe", for example). I admit, that attitude annoys me, but they have a right to their view, no matter how prejudiced and incorrect I think it is. In fairness, I've seen the opposite also. I'll argue every day that, well done, both styles are soulful.

I think self examination by the steel guitar community is important for progress. But I think we need to be careful about getting overly self-critical about our instrument and its history. And I still like my '70s sideburns, thank you, in fact I still have them.

Yes, real out-of-pitchness and poor playing are sometimes an issue (show me a stringed instrument where they're not). But this example doesn't even begin to approach that realm, IMO. I would never try to speak for Marty Pollard, but I'd be stunned if he was talking about John Hughey or anybody like him in the thread you referenced. Perhaps that type of comparison (Marty was talking about the West Virginia Creeper) got a few people riled up. I also take exception to the idea that guys like Hughey, Green, Emmons, et al., are less 'deep' than guys like Brent Mason and Paul Franklin, whose playing I also love. That seems to be what Stephan was saying in his first reply. To me, players of this caliber are all very deep.

To Stephan's cinema analogy, I would argue that the great 'classic' films are more popular than ever among anybody serious about film. "Casablanca", "Dracula", "Psycho", "High Noon" et al. corny, hokey, and painfully slow? No, they don't crash 2000 cars and leave 300 graphically bullet-ridden, bloody and dead bodies in their wake, but I vehemently disagree that most people view them that way. Nor are the great works in classic country, old-time/bluegrass, blues, jazz, rock, and classical music corny, hokey, and painfully slow. 'Classic' is always classic, and what goes around will generally come around, I believe.

All of this, of course, is strictly my opinion. I mean no personal insult to anybody. I agree with you, Bill, this is a forum of ideas about steel guitar and music, and I'd get bloody bored if we all agreed on everything. Sometimes it needs to be said.

Niclas Nilsson · Post by **Niclas Nilsson** » 24 May 2005 12:54 am

What Dave said. To each his own, of course, but to me, this is definitely a Classic, capital C. I'm not even sure I was born when this cut was recorded, but it's one of my absolute favorites, and John Hughey is probably my #1 steel inspiration. This song and Mr. Hughey's playing in particular trancends time and space, and manages to move the heart of this thirty-something, Swedish newbie steeler. I think that's testament to the greatness of this track and the performances of Conway Twitty and John Hughey. /Nic

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 24 May 2005 1:38 am

I agree with Billy that you need to hear John's intro/solo on "I've Just Destroyed The World I'm Livivng In". It seems like the neck on that old Emmons was 10 feet long.

I think the style that John displays on "Last Date" is the definative John Hughey. If you listen close to all of Conway's albums, you will find this 'crying' style all over the place. And nobody does it like John. Of corse, John is the total steel player in my opinion and can play pretty much anything.

Can you tell I like him?

And yes, I am hokey. In fact, I can still do the "hokey pokey"

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Carter D10 9p/10k, NV400
[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 24 May 2005 at 02:39 AM.]

Charlie McDonald · Post by **Charlie McDonald** » 24 May 2005 5:17 am

Gee, I just wish I could play that....

Bill Miller · Post by **Bill Miller** » 24 May 2005 9:05 am

So many of you love that song that I decided I must not be listening to it right...so I've been playing it over and over. Actually I do like everything John does in it except the part of the intro where his played notes correspond with the sung words "our love affair" and "I find I care". For whatever reason that lick jars me but maybe I have a tin ear.
For me the definitive Hughey sound is on Gill's 'Look at Us', but I guess it all depends on where you came in. I find that the very essence of beautiful sounding steel work.

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 24 May 2005 9:17 am

If Bobbe Seymore was monitoring this,he would probably say,"Every one's entitled to their own stupid opinion!"

~~W.C.~~

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 24 May 2005 9:33 am

Bill, I don't think anybody is saying you should like it. I'm certainly not.

Sometimes great music doesn't hit me right when I first hear it. If they're messing around with my preconceived notions about how something should sound, I will often fight it at first. But then if I give it a chance, sometimes it begins to sink in (and sometimes it doesn't). My first experiences with atonal music and bebop struck me like that, but I did learn to like it.

In the history of music, people have fought hard (in some cases, literally) over musical tastes. I'm not advocating fisticuffs (even verbally) over this kind of thing, but getting opinions out can be good. Sometimes it causes me to reexamine my own views and get 'outside the box' of my preconceptions. I see this as healthy.

Billy Carr · Post by **Billy Carr** » 24 May 2005 10:40 pm

Willie Nelson's Nashville Superstars Home Video Series has a couple of Conway videos that really feature John. One is "The Early Years" and the other is "CT #1 Hits". Pure steel guitar playing on both VHS'. Yes, everyone is entitled to there own opinions on different players and some of the songs they've played on over the years but when a steel player listens to these tapes and hears the way certain licks are played along with the way the right hand is used to create certain sounds then I believe they will have to watch the tapes over as I do from time to time.

Kenny Burford · Post by **Kenny Burford** » 26 May 2005 5:25 pm

A four piece country band with the steel player doing the majority of the lead work will bring home the bacon every time. And that's what country is all about, man John Hughey would be right along the side of the best of them when it comes to that kind of playing and if that ain't country, well you know what line comes next. I don't care if a steel guitar is swinging or crying, it fills the gaps and makes a little band big. [This message was edited by Kenny Burford on 26 May 2005 at 06:25 PM.]