Informing another player of bad intonation

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 20 Mar 2005 6:13 am

C'mon, will it really be "the-end-of-the-world" among mature amateur and professional musicians?

Uhhh...yes. I've seen it happen over far less significant remarks.

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 20 Mar 2005 7:39 am

Kevin,
When did you leave this "Island of Multi-Cultures"? I've been here since 1960 and boy, has it changed.

Jon Jaffe · Post by **Jon Jaffe** » 20 Mar 2005 9:17 am

Say nothing! If he/she has an ear at all he/she will improve. If not, the forces of musical selection will do the weeding. The weak steeler is not being forced to play, and must enjoy the band and the music. That is good, and is why we all do it.

Giving a critique of the playing will likely hurt feelings. In the end everything regresses to the mean. The great ones, in time lose skills, and the weaker become average.

Wayne Franco · Post by **Wayne Franco** » 20 Mar 2005 11:34 am

I remember working with a guy who was going to college to become a political campaign manager. I'll never forget something he said to me. If you want to really hurt someones feelings find out what they work the hardest to be good at, then criticise it. I think sometimes we can be very touchy because we work soooo hard on playing. With that in mind I certainly try and be as totally respectful and polite about things like that as possable.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 20 Mar 2005 11:42 am

I wonder if my wife took the same course as that guy?

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 20 Mar 2005 11:53 am

Herb hit it dead on. If you're working with the guy, then it's entirely appropriate to comment constructively. If you're not, just leave it alone.

------------------
www.tyack.com

Chuck Cusimano · Post by **Chuck Cusimano** » 20 Mar 2005 12:59 pm

If the guy is young, and you consider him a friend, by all means tell him. The single most important piece of advice I got from a seasoned musician was when I first started playing six nites a week for a living. The Steel player turned to me at a rehersal, and said: "Why don't you take that Da*n Telecaster home, put it under the bed and stay there with it, or else learn to play it!"

It nearly brought tears to my eyes at the time, but I asked for his help, and he showed me some things, and got me interested in what he was trying to do. I have not stopped trying to learn since and that was 32 years ago.

SO, I say again, if they are young and you truely care about their success, then you should mention it to them. Someday they will thank you, if they are any kind of people at all. I don't think you'll lose their friendship forever.

So, publicly, again let me say thanks to a steel player from 32 years ago....THANK YOU BILLY POTEET!

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 20 Mar 2005 1:31 pm

Sorry Chuck,but if someone EVER used those words with me,friend or not, he would be WEARING that Tele... That was a very hurtful and NASTY thing to say, I'm sure glad it helped in your case,but I personally would NEVER respect a highly talented musician if he spoke to a less talented one in that manner. There are other ways to help a less talented person out thats for sure...

I often play with people that are not on a very high talent level, sometimes they are downright awful,but to turn to someone giving it his best and using the terms you wrote, well, I just could not be that awful to someone..especially if he respected and looked up to me.. I could not be that rotten .... bob

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 20 Mar 2005 3:09 pm

It is amazing me how many steel players are so insecure with themselves that they can't accept constructive criticism from another steel player. I am totally open to any constructive valid criticism from any steel player. I don't get it. I would really think that someone would want to know if they were seriously out of intonation. I guess not. I guess that I'll just keep my mouth shut and let these guys make fools of themselves and give steel playing a bad name. I just really don't get it.

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 20 Mar 2005 3:21 pm

Apon further reflection, I've answered but only when asked, and qualified it by mentioning that at best there is no other instrument in the particular environ that one could be "in tune with".

Also inre to public playing, any intonation imho is better than none.(If a tree doesn't fall, nobody hears it.)

Panhandling performance being only marginally more acceptable..

EJL

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 20 Mar 2005 8:49 pm

Kevin.. I think you misunder stand.. If these guys are friends you can talk to, I would think it would be NO problem if you told them in a friendly and instructive way. If you hardly know them, I would think they would get offended.. A LOT depends on your relationship with these guys..no?... bob

Stephen LeBlanc · Post by **Stephen LeBlanc** » 20 Mar 2005 9:00 pm

I often welcome criticism, no matter what instrument I'm playing but at a gig, where I just got through moving people and putting my heart into it...well, I might be insulted. I suppose there is a time and place for everything, I like to think I can take it any time or place but we're emotional creatures, sometimes you just don't want or need to hear something negative, even if you already know it to be true.

All that said, hey, feel free to point out my intonation/tuning problems on Pedal, I'm definitly a beginner and am learning the hard way (trial and error)...so I expect criticism.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 21 Mar 2005 7:14 am

I'm certainly open to constructive criticism. I certainly got some from Jimmie Crawford many years ago, even if he voiced it in a kind-hearted manner which was typical of the man himself.

Some 'criticism', though, can come from the critic's own insecurity - some of that should be taken with a pinch of salt.....

RR

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 21 Mar 2005 12:03 pm

Kevin, Do you think that maybe this player reads this forum? Perhaps you've already told him.

and for myself, well I can take criticisms of my playing, but it all depends on who it's coming from.

Some steelers I have seen have a tendancy to pick the notes then slide up into the chord. This may sound OK by itself, but it sounds really awful with a band playing along.

Willis Vanderberg · Post by **Willis Vanderberg** » 21 Mar 2005 4:11 pm

Hey Roger:
Not to be critical of your picking ,and I normally wouldn't mention this, Knowing how sensative you are, but I noticed when you were playing my Emmons barefoot, your feet were slightly flat...ha !
Sorry about the fretless bass man...
Are you home now ? Will you be doing the Almost Patsy thing here. ?

Bud

Bud

Mark Durante · Post by **Mark Durante** » 21 Mar 2005 6:38 pm

Nobody needs tell me when my intonation is off, I'm always painfully aware of it even when others don't notice. I work on it all the time trying to improve. Some people are bothered more and some less by intonation inaccuracies, some people actually think if everything is perfectly in tune it sounds too "nice". It seems to me all the greats have excellent intonation though.

Chuck Cusimano · Post by **Chuck Cusimano** » 21 Mar 2005 7:06 pm

To bob Carluci. I should have pointed out in my post that at that time in my life If the Music wasn't Buck Owens, or Merle Haggard, I wasn't giving it enough attention.
I was a Roy Nichols, and Don Rich freak, and didn't know who Eldon Shamblin, or Leon Rhodes, or Grady Martin was.
I was selfish to not be as interested in the entire groups selections of some of my (now) most favorite music. Perhaps, had the Steel player tried to soften his statement, I wouldn't have taken him as seriously as I did after he expressed to me that it was important to him. (He showed me how to play the melody to Bubbles In my Beer, and he played the harmony..It opened MANY MANY doors.) One thing about it, I have been a team player ever since!

That day, a man I will always respect, cared enough about my success that he stated his feelings to where there was no mistaking his statement.
I'm just glad I didn't end up getting that Telecaster stuck in a certain part of my body to make me look like a human Popsicle.
AND that day he also turned me on to playing twin with him, something that I still love to do.

Tell a young player anything that will improve their musical experiences, they will thank you someday.

Oh, by the way Bob, in case you are thinking I was a SISSY for not smackin' him for his comment, I was also riding Bulls and Saddle Broncs in Rodeos at the same time this happened, and I felt I had to be tough enough to take my lumps, be it words or a mouthfull of dirt.

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 21 Mar 2005 7:53 pm

Yes, Bud, I'm back - and I will be doing the Bradenton 'Patsy'; maybe I'll get another chance to play that lovely Emmons of yours! This time, though, I'll bring some carpet slippers.....

Best,

Roger

James Cann · Post by **James Cann** » 21 Mar 2005 8:58 pm

Good thread, and it reminds me of a line I heard many years ago: "You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar."

. . . which worked for many years, until I used it in my classroom one day, to which a student viewed, "Yes, but you'll catch more flies with manure than with honey."

So, mentor, know your protege'![This message was edited by James Cann on 21 March 2005 at 08:59 PM.]

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 22 Mar 2005 3:56 am

so I guess most of us play very well , in tune and on pitch ?

Count me out..

I was told..glad I was.

I've worked with some of the hottest guitars players up and down the East Coast..but most had egos' that prevented them from a second gig..

It's better to have a simple player in tune and on pitch then a hot player out of tune and off pitch..

As musicians if we cannot outgrow and control our egos' then theres pretty much no hope...

IF this cat is Kevins friend then it should be mentioned..it's part of the growing process..it's part of the friendship thing..there is always a gentle way to do these things.

Roger..sorry about the Fretless Bass thing..

When I see a Fretless player show up for a jam or so..I pretty much always take a deep breath...

When I was playing Bass full time in the mid 90's they always asked me why I didn't have a fretless.My stock answer was always the same..

"I'm not good a guessing "....
t

[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 22 March 2005 at 05:48 AM.]

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 22 Mar 2005 4:01 am

Chuck.. fair enough! I'm glad it worked out well in your case! I guess the guy wasn't all bad if he shared his musical knowledge with you and took an active role in your development ..

His actions could have been worse I suppose....He COULD have screamed, YOU STINK !!! and then rocketed his bar right at the center of your foehead! Now that would have been a REAL ego boost!

bob

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 22 Mar 2005 5:31 am

A few years ago a consultant from the automotive industry gave us a seminar on "design for assembly". His take on this situation was "how do you tell a mother she has an ugly baby?". This parallel situation is to tell an engineer that their design idea stinks. Who to do the telling?
Well, if you remember that big boatsized shamu the whale Chevrolet sedan from about 10 years ago, no one had the nerve to tell the vice-president of the division that his design... well, you get the idea.

Scott Henderson · Post by **Scott Henderson** » 22 Mar 2005 8:07 am

HIRE A LEAD SINGER TO TELL HIM. HELL TAKE IT MORE PROFESSIONALLY FROM SOMEONE WHO HAS GREAT PITCH LIKE A LEAD SINGER!!!!!!!!!!
(you have to know I'm joking!)

------------------
Steelin' away in the ozarks and life,
Scott
www.scottyhenderson.com

Bob Storti · Post by **Bob Storti** » 22 Mar 2005 10:09 am

Maybe you could send him an anonymous letter. Maybe the kind where you cut the words out of magazines and paste them onto a piece of paper:

Roses are Red
Violets are Blue
Your steel is out of tune
And so are you

Personally, I wouldn't say anything about to him, but I am mean enough to get a drummer to tell him! (just kidding). I'd stay out of the whole thing.

Bob

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Mar 2005 10:17 am

W Franco wrote:

If you want to really hurt someones feelings find out what they work the hardest to be good at, then criticise it. I think sometimes we can be very touchy because we work soooo hard on playing. With that in mind I certainly try and be as totally respectful and polite about things like that as possable.

Wonderful advice worth repeating. Thanks for that insight.