Informing another player of bad intonation

Joe Miraglia · Post by **Joe Miraglia** » 19 Mar 2005 7:07 am

Kevin--Be upfront with him and be honest. If he has any class he will understand. He will want to know. Joe

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 19 Mar 2005 7:27 am

The good news is that with a bit of practice you can improve your intonation. Its all about how you listen. I still have a bunch of those drone CDs for pitch practicing I'm selling for cheap if anybody is interested. Click on the link under my name for a thread about it with ordering info.

thanks,

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Bob
intonation help

Roger Crawford · Post by **Roger Crawford** » 19 Mar 2005 7:34 am

If (when) it's me, I want to know! How will I know what to work on if no one tells me? Some of the best advice I have gotten was when a DEAR friend noticed that the way I was holding my bar caused it to be at a slight angle, enough to make big chords sound out of tune. Did I get upset with him? Not on your life! I worked hard at repositoning the bar and making a consious effort to keep it square to the strings. The next time we heard each other play, he gave me a big morale boost in telling me what a difference he noticed in my sound. Thanks,Bill!

Roger Kelly · Post by **Roger Kelly** » 19 Mar 2005 7:50 am

we have a couple of guys that come in here and play steel that are so far out of intonation that they sound drunk when they are playing. You are right on."

Why not suggest to the sound man that he tell them?

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 19 Mar 2005 7:54 am

Well, here's an idea: Those of us on the Forum who are WILLING to have someone come up to us at a gig and tell us the truth about our playing could sign up on this thread to announce that fact

THEN, when you're at somebody's gig and they're playing outta tune (or whatever), you can just discreetly ask if they're one of the people who signed on the Forum thread that they want people to tell them the truth about their playing.

If they say "NO", or look at you like they don't know what the heck you're talking about, you can just say, "Oh, then, never mind..." and drop the subject!

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 19 Mar 2005 7:55 am

Well, here's an idea: Those of us on the Forum who are WILLING to have someone come up to us at a gig and tell us the truth about our playing could sign up on this thread to announce that fact

THEN, when you're at somebody's gig and they're playing outta tune (or whatever), you can just discreetly ask if they're one of the people who signed on the Forum thread that they want people to tell them the truth about their playing.

If they say "NO", or look at you like they don't know what the heck you're talking about, you can just say, "Oh, then, never mind..." and drop the subject!

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 19 Mar 2005 8:16 am

Just look 'em straight in the eye and tell 'em "You sounded fine!".
Same goes for reverb.

Michael Haselman · Post by **Michael Haselman** » 19 Mar 2005 8:45 am

Well, I think an out-of-intonation steel player gives us all a bad name. I know that a steel played in tune is one of the most beautiful sounds in the world and one played off-key is like fingernails on a blackboard. The problem is that steel, like fiddle and any other fretless instrument, takes a good innate ear for intonation. I thing some have it and others don't. I know I wouldn't have the guts to tell someone I didn't know, though. I would have no problem telling a friend and doing it diplomatically.

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Marrs D-10, Webb 6-14E

[This message was edited by Michael Haselman on 19 March 2005 at 08:56 AM.]

Stephen Gregory · Post by **Stephen Gregory** » 19 Mar 2005 9:12 am

I believe all compliments regarding our playing should be posted by the "complimenter" not the "complimentee". That being said, any advice we give should be confidential and we should conversely, be able to accept a critique in a positive way. BTW, when we do offer that critique, there better be "no holes" whatsoever in our playing. In other words we should be very qualified to offer that advice.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 19 Mar 2005 9:22 am

Well, I prefer it when my friends/fellow musicians are brutally honest with me, and I try to be the same with them.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 19 Mar 2005 10:15 am

Steinar, thats the way I am also, but I'm sure that we are in the minority. I want to be told anytime by any steel player listening any constructive criticism of my playing.

Mark van Allen · Post by **Mark van Allen** » 19 Mar 2005 10:41 am

Great thread, and a tricky question! I suppose for every player that welcomes any comment on his inaccuracies and flaws there's another who's been crushed by an off-hand comment from someone he looks up to.
One man's helpful pointers are just criticism to another. Demeanor is everything...

I don't find my own playing to be flawless enough to allow me to be the arbiter of how others should play the instrument.

In my case, I've done loads of sessions where everybody's fine with whatever I've played. Then there are a couple of producers who will say "I like everything but that third chorus, it's kind of pitchy in there..." and we recut until it's right. I'm generally prouder of those tracks- and to me those kinds of pointers are always welcome- given, and taken, in the spirit of creating a better musical product.

It does depend somewhat on intent- there's another local steel player who has made a great many disparaging comments about my playing to bands and studios in the area- not so much about things like intonation, but more about my stylistic choices and "non-Nashville" approach. He probably doesn't care that a lot of that gets repeated back to me, but what he may not realize is how many people have been highly irritated by his comments, and see them as blatant attempts to swipe gigs and session accounts from me. Everyone doesn't think steel should sound the same.

There's certainly some "shooting oneself in the foot" going on there. It may be wise to consider how other people respond to even well-intentioned criticisms.

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Stop by the Steel Store at: www.markvanallen.com
[This message was edited by Mark van Allen on 19 March 2005 at 10:42 AM.]

Larry Allen · Post by **Larry Allen** » 19 Mar 2005 10:42 am

After I got my Pederson VS 2 I started watching it while playing and was able to readjust my intonation. I even changed the fingerboard on one of my steels. I mentioned this to another of my steel friends and borrowed my tuner to him for a week (he then bought one).It sure helped my intonation problems that I wasn't even aware of.LA

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Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 19 Mar 2005 11:09 am

"Honey, does this steel guitar make my ass look fat?"

As an afterthought, I'm not sure a poorly intoned steel guitar can always be picked out of the din unless there's an electronic keyboard, or a good nervy 'in tune' telecaster player that knows where he's at, or a fiddle player that plays to his open strings, and figuring all aspects of the band it's in, maybe it's better to be a little "off".

What does it for me is often I'll hear something "off" an it's usually my 10th E9th string that I've hit the knob of while playing. I check it in line, and find that it's only off about 10 cents. That's enough. my lowers until the strings are warmed up when checked show me a similar difference, and when off to my ear are usually off 10 cents.

Stage volume makes it a little harder yet.

It's numbers sometimes, if you have happen to be playing in perfect pitch, against a fiddle player that's following a flat singing vocalist, then you're the odd man out.

Maybe that's why you got hired, or to detract from an ugly vocalist..

Heres a GREAT thing to do along the lines of Mr Hofnar's CDs which if one has the time is a GREAT way to gauge yourself on intonation.

Put on Bobbe Seymour's Masters collection, where three TOP psgers are playing the same song. Tune however you wish to. Play along with it.

Can I tell who is playing with what kind of intonation? Yes. Slow it down if you wish.

Would I care to comment on who is playing with what intonation? Even with keeping in mind, or maybe proving that intonation isn't everything..

You first..

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 19 March 2005 at 11:13 AM.]

Rich Weiss · Post by **Rich Weiss** » 19 Mar 2005 11:42 am

Just give me his e-mail address. I'll tell him.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 19 Mar 2005 12:11 pm

If a steel player I knew to be a world class pro told me my intonation was not what it should be, I would thank him for his caring enough to try and help out..

BUT if a guy on my level, playing for the same money, in the same venues, made the same comment, I tell him to go "s**t in his hat, and I'd walk away.[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 19 March 2005 at 12:12 PM.]

Howard Tate · Post by **Howard Tate** » 19 Mar 2005 12:12 pm

If someone I respected told me I needed to work on intonation or anything else, I would appreciate it. If someone said it in a disrespectful way I would take offense. I don't think I would tell anyone else unless they asked me.

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Howard, 'Les Paul Recording, Zum S12U, Vegas 400, Boss ME-5, Boss DM-3
http://www.Charmedmusic.com

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 19 Mar 2005 3:31 pm

I have bad intonation. I work on it but on stage I often get carried away and don't have much control. I'd be mortified if another steeler mentioned it to me, like I couldn't tell.

The music goes off into the air and what's done is gone. I'm getting better sometimes.

Dr. Hugh Jeffreys · Post by **Dr. Hugh Jeffreys** » 19 Mar 2005 3:44 pm

He has probably lost a lot of work because of his problem, and maybe been told "I'll keep you in mind, etc." If a friend does'nt tell him, he's lost. The best way I've found to keep intonation down to zero cents is to record yourself with a good professional background. Hopefully he is not tone deaf. ---j---

Jim Peters · Post by **Jim Peters** » 19 Mar 2005 4:15 pm

It takes a big man to take criticism. I'm so uptight most of the time about my own (guitar)playing, that even the most well intentioned comment can ruin me for a month! I wouldn't mind on steel since I'm still learning. I say get him a tape of his playing, and let it go at that. JP

Roger Rettig · Post by **Roger Rettig** » 19 Mar 2005 5:34 pm

I've just finished a tour where this became an issue.

We had a new bass-player join the 'Whorehouse' group for the January-March leg of the engagement. The previous guy was a terrific player and we were all sorry to hear that he wouldn't be returning this year. His replacement was a fairly capable player, but he turned up with a fretless Fender bass. It soon became clear that his intonation wasn't all that he imagined it was.

It's always struck me as interesting that when players are 'pitchy', they're very often sharp. My pet theory is that, if they're having difficulty hearing themselves, subconsciously 'sharpening' their pitch helps them hear themselves in the mix coming from the monitors. If I'm wrong, then it's just poor 'ears' - it almost seems futile to mention it; if the offending player doesn't hear anything wrong, then how can he correct it!!!?

After a few days we made representation to the Music Director. He said he'd 'have a word', but he didn't want to undermine the new guy's confidence (!)....

Herb's right - this can lead to acrimony on the bandstand. After thoroughly enjoying the '04 tour, this last one was purgatory - both myself and the guitar-player found ourselves 'laying out' of some tunes (noticeably the sharp or flat keys were the worst) so as not to add to the cacaphony!

I finished up by losing my temper with our MD - in my view he should have instructed the bass-player to send home for a fretted instrument rather than compromising the quality of the show. Bad intonation is never acceptable, but at this level of professional theatre, I'm amazed that we staggered to the end of the tour without satisfactory resolution.

In this case it was definitely the MD's job to address this matter - there are very clear guidelines in theatre with regard to actors (OR musicians) giving 'notes' to colleagues - and as 'head of department', it was his responsibility. The end result? I lost my temper and spoke my mind, and, human nature being what it is, I doubt if the MD concerned will ever call me again.

I sincerely hope that the bass-player will return to the obscurity from whence he came....

RR[This message was edited by Roger Rettig on 19 March 2005 at 05:42 PM.]

Chip Fossa · Post by **Chip Fossa** » 19 Mar 2005 7:11 pm

Just bring it up. Maybe make a recording and a comparison.

Just bring it up. Period.

You can not cover all the consequential emotional repurcussions.

You know it's there.

C'mon, will it really be "the-end-of-the-world" among mature amateur and professional musicians?

cf

John De Maille · Post by **John De Maille** » 19 Mar 2005 7:45 pm

Kevin,
I think, that, if the offending steel player is around your age or less, and about as talented as you or less, I would mention it in a round about way, without being overly critical. But, it's then up to the steel player to take the constructive criticism and use it in an intelligent,beneficial way.If they can't take the criticism, then it's their loss and they will always be, just adaquate musicians.
As for mentioning it to an older steeler, great care and observation must be used. Many older steelers just don't hear that well anymore. It not their fault, it's natures. I've known a few, who, honestly don't know that they are playing flat or sharp. I don't think anything can be done for it, either. Maybe an inner ear operation, who knows?
And, if it comes down to listening to a seasoned pro, who's playing left or right of the frets,"I" would say absolutely nothing. I, personally, haven't been playing long enough within the inner circle of our heroes to mention a word!

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 20 Mar 2005 1:36 am

John, I grew up in Hempstead.

George Wixon · Post by **George Wixon** » 20 Mar 2005 4:39 am

Kevin,
I've only been playing for a little over 3 years and I would always want to know what's wrong. If I have a problem and don't know about it, I can't do anything to fix it. If I do know about it then I can work on it to correct it.
I agree that it should be mentioned in a tactful manner and not just blurted out.
Every one has feelings and they can be hurt by words.
George