Reputation importace question:

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 14 Feb 2005 10:06 am

I came across a very unusual situation this past Saturday night that probably the musicians in this forum can clear up. I was invited to be part of a back up group to a seventeen year old female singer. Though I am a raw beginner on steel, the bass and lead guitarists along with the drummer are 30+ year players and can be considered professional musicians.

What happened this week end was something I have never been involved in before in that this young singer would be thrown off by the bass and lead guitarists when they moved into to chord runs. As I said these guys are professional musicians and know their stuff and are definitely not show offs. (It was also a first time practice session.)

Whenever the guys would move into a chord run, the young vocalist would either lose the rhythm and/or her place in the song or would stop singing all together. The father stepped in and asked that the band move from chord to chord with either an abrupt change or a maximum two beat chord change. Rather than having a smooth rhythm in the back up music we ended up sounding like a beginner band that had no idea how to move through chords. The bass player said we sound like an amateur “thump, thump” back up.

The father argued that his daughter has a growing reputation that they want to protect and that the band should understand that and play to her needs. This girl, without a doubt has a ton of talent and a great voice but, has no idea how to keep on track with a full scale, professional band backing her. The lead guitarist got very upset because he too feels he has a reputation to protect and the same goes for the bass player. If anyone came into listen to the backup band’s performance to consider hiring them for something else, they sounded like amateurs while playing the way the father wanted the guys to play. The guys wanted to walk out which of course made the father very upset and he accused the guys of acting like big headed spoiled brats.

So whose right and who is wrong here? Are the back up musicians secondary to the vocalist in that the vocalist’s reputation comes first or should it be a balancing act where the musicians have the right to make a stance if they feel their reputation is at stake as well?

I have feeling that this young lady has been taught to sing taking all her cues from her backup rather than just concentrating on her song and let the band follow her.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

[This message was edited by Les Anderson on 14 February 2005 at 10:27 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Feb 2005 10:18 am

If the group was assembled to back up the singer, they should do what's comfortable for her. If she's used to having the music sound like she expects it to sound, the band should respect that artistic decision. In most cases, a backup band will have a band leader, or music director, or arranger who should mediate any artistic decisions among the band and artist.

If she's just the 'singer in the band', it's a different story. Everyone should have a say in how the arrangements are laid out.

In the first scenario, the singer is 'the boss'. It's her name on the markee and, yes, her reputation on the line. If it sounds corny or hoky, it's her neck in the noose.

In the second scenario, it's an ensemble situation that should have some degree of democracy with the artistic decisions (e.g., arrangements).

That's the way I'm accustomed to seeing it done, in any case.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 14 Feb 2005 10:18 am

Sounds like this young singer has never had an opportunity to sing behind a professional band. The only win-win I see is to practice some more with her or give her some full band practice tracks to sing along with.

Terry

Tony Prior · Post by **Tony Prior** » 14 Feb 2005 10:26 am

The problem here is very typical, those of us that have been bandstand hacks for a few decades can relive this experience many times over in our little minds..

The band needs to play what it is they are expected to play..but if things go wrong because she can't feel the TIMING then the band ain't gonna be able to help her.

It sounds to me like the Band was just playing in the groove..I didn't detect that they were doing anything other than giving a good solid rhythm section to sing over..

The Daddy clearly wants and thinks the daughter is gonna be a STAR..well that is not gonna happen if her timing is off and she doesn't realize it . No band on the planet can help her if she doesn't know she is out of sync.

The Daddy blaming the band is just total ignorance..but not uncommon for these situations..

The players should always finish the gig, keep there mouths shut and at the end just tell Dad not to call them anymore. It's obvious the Dad doesn't know much about music or playing in a LIVE band either..

Who's right ? Both..The Dad in requesting what he wanted because he was paying..and the Band guys for stating that this was amateur hour...the guys in the band should just move on and tell the Dad after the gig that this is not a gig for them.

Eventually the Dad runs out of local musicians .

t[This message was edited by Tony Prior on 14 February 2005 at 10:48 AM.][This message was edited by Tony Prior on 14 February 2005 at 10:53 AM.]

Ron ! · Post by **Ron !** » 14 Feb 2005 10:32 am

Les.

On stage you have to be there as a unit and not as a 4-5 or 6piece band.If people are on stage to let other people see how good they are they for sure are in the wrong place.I have often played with singers that had problems in holding it together.

So whose right and who is wrong here? Are the back up musicians secondary to the vocalist in that the vocalist’s reputation comes first or should it be a balancing act where the musicians have the right to walk out if they feel their reputation is at stake as well?

Back up should be treated the same way as the vocalist.Most vocalist these days think they are the new Shania or Alan Jackson.

The guys wanted to walk out which of course made the father very upset and he accused the guys of acting like big headed spoiled brats

If he would have said that to me I sure would walk of the stage.Audience or not.

Ron

Nikaro SD10 4x6
European Steel Guitar Forum

P.S

If it sounds corny or hoky, it's her neck in the noose.

So what you are saying is that you will back up everybody with a big mouth that sounds corny?Even if it means that it would ruin your name as musician?

[This message was edited by Ronald ! on 14 February 2005 at 10:45 AM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 14 Feb 2005 10:32 am

What is a "chord run"?

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 14 Feb 2005 10:41 am

What is a chord run? Do you strum the same chord over again until it's time to change chords? In other words, as the lead guitar player said, it sounds like a single strum, thump, thump band.

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 14 Feb 2005 10:58 am

I argue that the singer should learn to sing with a professional band before she starts acting as a professional. It sounds to me that she is not ready to play in public yet. Raw vocal chords do not a singer make. IMO, she would be far better off to take time to woodshed on working with a band than playing out right now, based on what you're saying here. I agree with Larry's logic, if I am the singer's employee, with all that entails, although I would not use the phrase "artistic decision". But I, personally, would not continue to back up a singer like this unless she wanted to work on the problems. I do realize when you're making a living as a musician, it's hard to turn down paying gigs, that's one of the reasons I teach college again, ha! But if it's going to really make it look like "Amateur Hour", it's not worth it, IMO. BTW, imo, the guys were right not to walk out mid-performance, that woulda been bush-league. But I'd renegotiate the deal after a gig like this.

Burton Lee · Post by **Burton Lee** » 14 Feb 2005 11:29 am

I don't think there's anything amateurish about simple, especially when backing up someone else is concerned.

Brevity and clarity is something I aspire towards in my playing. I find I play too many notes when I don't really know what I want to play.

My 2 cents,
Burton Lee

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 14 Feb 2005 11:43 am

Tony nailed it!.. Been there done that... ad nauseum........bob

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 14 Feb 2005 11:49 am

I didn't hear anybody say there was anything wrong with playing simply, if the song calls for that. If the song calls for a stark, unobtrusive backing without passing chords to signal chord changes, fine. What I think Les is describing is a singer who can't tell what chord change is coming up. It's an issue of competence. The other issue here is, "Who's the boss?". If one argues "The singer is always the boss", I argue, "Well, not unless I'm his/her employee". If the singer is not the employer, it's a band, imo, and I'm a free agent or a partner. Of course, the song should always be served, but how that happens is negotiable. Just another $.02.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Feb 2005 12:00 pm

All of the above.

But I will add that,
daddy's like this are why we get Ashlee Simpsons.

Young girls pushed out onstage lacking even a modicum of profesional polishing learned in the trenches, like most real singers get and a grateful for.

No the band shouldn't have walked for being asked to play simple.

But a continueing working relation ship with this duo of daddy and daughter isn't a good bet.

By chord runs, d you mean multichord turnarounds???
This isn't clear,
but the girl should be able to hold meter at the very least.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 14 February 2005 at 12:20 PM.]

Dave Grafe · Post by **Dave Grafe** » 14 Feb 2005 12:11 pm

The players should always finish the gig, keep there mouths shut and at the end just tell Dad not to call them anymore.

Time for Daddy to get out his own guitar or get out of the way. That girl will learn more from those musicians than daddy will ever let her find out on her own. I have worked with a few "top" performers (Leanne R. comes to mind) whose daddies had to have their hands in everything. It was never, ever about the performer's needs, always about the control-freak daddy's ego.

Most of them get ditched (if not sued) by their singing kids once they reach 18 years of age, anyway.

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<img align=right src="http://www.pdxaudio.com/dgsept03.jpg" width="114 height="114">Dave Grafe - email: dg@pdxaudio.com
Production
Pickin', etc.

1978 ShoBud Pro I E9, Randall Steel Man 500, 1960 Les Paul (SG) Deluxe, 1963 Precision Bass, 1954 Gibson LGO, 1897 Washburn Hawaiian Steel Conversion

[This message was edited by Dave Grafe on 14 February 2005 at 12:13 PM.]

Jerry Overstreet · Post by **Jerry Overstreet** » 14 Feb 2005 12:25 pm

Sounds like this gal needs to do her homework before she hits the big time stage. The pros she will run into if she gets that far won't be embarrassed by stuttering when she falters, so she has to learn how to sing in proper meter, be familiar with the song and anticipate the changes if she ever expects to succeed.

A pro is a pro, is a pro be they musician, singer, sound crew member, or whatever. Holding to the professional standards that they have spent many hours and years aquiring is what separates them from the amateurs.

Now, at some of the jams and local gatherings, I run into quite a few singers that want you to stop and catch up with them when they jump meter. I just try not to do it, but if the other musicians go, you have no choice. Sometimes the listening audience feels like this is the fault of the band. It is terribly annoying, but sometimes unavoidable. Yes, I make plenty of mistakes too. That's why I don't get the big time gigs

. You won't find any pro musicians tolerating this though. As previously stated, the finish the gig and lose my ph.# response might apply in this case. Might depend on the state of pocketbook!

OTOH, I have witnessed musicians taking the song through a series of bends that were not in the original songs and would tend to confuse some seasoned singers let alone someone relatively new. So there's food for thought too.
[This message was edited by Jerry Overstreet on 14 February 2005 at 01:57 PM.]

Bill Hatcher · Post by **Bill Hatcher** » 14 Feb 2005 12:27 pm

Chord run??? Never heard that one.

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 14 Feb 2005 12:30 pm

Chord run???

Bill a chord run is like a passing chord,,you just let it pass you by.

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 14 Feb 2005 12:36 pm

I suppose a better way to phrase the question, do professional musicians have the right to object to being asked to play or sound too simple, almost to the point of sounding amateurish. No one walked out of the session but the guys were not happy and probably would not go on stage with her.

The very young lady in question indeed has a great voice; however, anything but simple and direct chord changes behind her was throwing her off.

"Yes David, I mean multichord turnarounds. I am not talking about doing a two second turnaround that breaks the momentum; just the country music basics." (different countries, different terminologies) (many steelers up here call the steel’s necks; decks {lower decks and upper decks})

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(I am not right all of the time but I sure like to think I am!)

Terry Edwards · Post by **Terry Edwards** » 14 Feb 2005 12:37 pm

A chord "run" would be a faster version of "walking" up to the next chord.

Terry

Glenn Austin · Post by **Glenn Austin** » 14 Feb 2005 12:49 pm

I've been in the same position. Our singer was a young woman with a fantastic voice who had never sang with a band before. She could not understand how to contemplate chord changes in a song, how or where to come back in after a solo etc. Unfortunately if she doesn't play an instrument or have some musical training, then this will be a real headache for everybody, and will always be the band's fault due to "father and daughter" not understanding where the real problem lies.

Also 'Dad' should not be there to pick on everybody, especially on a first go-around. It's just going to create knives in backs. It's not a question of who is boss, but creating an enviroment where everybody can be at their best. This whole thing sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 14 Feb 2005 12:54 pm

Did the Dad play the band a recording of how the song was supposed to sound?... (maybe the original artists CD?)... or provide charts?

Did this happen on multiple songs?

What songs?
Original tune(s)?

What happened in the end?
What songs went smoothly?... (if any).

FWIW, I've never heard the term "Chord Run" either. Could you please reference a specific chord-run in a popular song (just so we are all talking about the same thing).
Do you mean like in Help Me Make It Through The Night, where the transition from the verse to the bridge walks up from the "I" to the "IV"? I've heard some blunders on that one on a few Sunday night "Talent Contests" (at the 17 Club in Billings, Montana!

)

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Feb 2005 1:04 pm

Sound like thay were so daring as to actually play 3 over 2 timing of some moderately hip chords like 6 2 5 1
while doing a turn around, after I II V, I IV I V
and she got lost on what for us is a natural break between verses.

More seaonining needed,
roast slowly while basting with natural juises
and only allow one cook at the rotiserrie at a time..
She's still to tender to be served

[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 14 February 2005 at 01:05 PM.]

Les Anderson · Post by **Les Anderson** » 14 Feb 2005 1:16 pm

Terry has the idea.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 14 Feb 2005 1:37 pm

OK, maybe I'll give this a go from a different direction.

The musical aspects are really immaterial. The question is 'Who is the boss?'

If Dad is booking the gigs and taking the responsibility for developing Daughter's career, that's fine. HE'S THE BOSS. If you don't like it, you, and the other band members are within your rights to TAKE A HIKE. Nobody's twisting your arm to play in this band, are they?

The band has the right to FIRE THE SINGER (and her Dad) if all agree that it's in the best interest of the band. Les has not made it clear to me whether this is a band that was formed for the specific purpose of backing this young lady or if the band has a 'life of its own'. But, if you're relying on Dad to provide the gigs and/or the PA system, etc., he may hold the trump cards.

Understand what I'm getting at?

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Post by **Dave Mudgett** » 14 Feb 2005 2:05 pm

Larry has a point in practice. But technically, it's an employer/employee relationship at that point. I'll bet that's not the way it's being handled in many cases. Being a true employer is a pain. When you're playing with the big boys and girls, you're in the union, you're an employee, right? This is no different than working in an office, technically. But people want to have it both ways: I'm the boss, but, oh, wait, you mean I hafta worry about FICA copayments, unemployment benefits, blah, blah, blah?? Oh, I really mean, this is a musical thing, this is a band, Mr. IRS man. How about those politicians who hire people without making them 'employees', then find out they have some backpedalling to do when their opposition finds out about it.

I agree with Glenn, it should not just turn into a question of "Who's boss", but all too often in the 'star system', that's what happens. IMO, Tony's right, either somebody's the boss, or it's a 'band'. Of course, in any reasonable situation, this kind of stuff should be discussed reasonably - the audience hears the "whole thing", not just the singer OR the lead guitar OR the steel, etc. Everybody should be sensitive to everyone else's needs. But this point is often missed in practice, I'm sorry to point out from hard experience that I'm sure many here share. At this point, I tell people, "Either hire me as a well-paid sideman, I'll play what you want as best I can. Otherwise, my opinion is just as important as yours - we're all in the band." That seems to cut through the nonsense. The gigs I don't get to play are fine with me.


As far as the musical aspects being immaterial, well let's just say I choose to disagree here. But I understand your point, Larry. It is a business also, if you're taking money to play.

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 14 Feb 2005 2:59 pm

Sounds like this could have been avoided by requesting that the Dad or daughter, "Send us a recording so we can get an idea of what you sound like, and we'll take it from there.".
Followed by a polite... "Uhh, Thanks for asking, but I don't think we're the right band for this job".

Just when we thought working with a married couple was a drag!... In walks Father Knows Best!