Perfect Pitch

Mark Butcher · Post by **Mark Butcher** » 13 Nov 2004 9:26 am

Any of you guys ever done a Perfect Pitch course. Did it work? Was it a lot of work? Having perfect pitch would really help my PSG!

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Sho-Bud Pro 1
Many stringed things.
www.marksmandolins.com

Gene Jones · Post by **Gene Jones** » 13 Nov 2004 10:11 am

No....but my grand-daughter was judged to have perfect pitch and earned a scholarship on the clarinet!

www.genejones.com

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 13 Nov 2004 12:05 pm

I've heard tell that it's a curse. Almost everything in the world is out of tune. It's better not to know.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 13 Nov 2004 12:34 pm

Don't know if it's a curse or not, but I believe good relative pitch is much more important for a working musician.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

Jim Florence · Post by **Jim Florence** » 13 Nov 2004 12:50 pm

What an interesting website, Mark.
Jim

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 13 Nov 2004 12:56 pm

I agree with the curse bit.
As a steel player you would ALWAYS be unhappy.
I have recorded with a few people with perfect pitch... horrible sessions mostly.

And I have a piano tuner friend of 30 years ;
he will often refuse to tune a piano for someone with perfect pitch,
because they just CAN'T be satisfied.
Some he knos have gone though 30 different hiuman tuners, and NEVER liked one,
but imagine they can find one someday...

Now improving your pitch ear.. this is good.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 13 Nov 2004 1:56 pm

What advantage does one have that happens to have it?

With all these fellows tuning this string sharp; that one over there FLAT; this one right here really sharp; and then on the bottom strings tuning them FLAT and some sharp........then having fun playing with two steels in the band where the other guy is tuning his in an entirely different manner. THAT WOULD JUST HAVE TO SOUND GREAT!

There seems to be a glaring flaw in the logic behind all of these scientific tuning
techniques.......... I would truly love to hear a symphony orchestra with 75 pieces, plus or minus, where each one simply tunes to his own liking without regard to what is correct and thus pleasant to the ear.

You only have to listen to one pedal steel player that boasts of being tone deaf but having one of the lastest contraptions for tuning his guitar to off-set his lack of personal abilities........No matter which pedal is depressed or shoved sideways, it rings horribly out of tune, even on open chords. It's a terrible experience to have to sit thro'. One is not required to have perfect pitch to identify this Flaw!

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 13 Nov 2004 3:47 pm

I've known someone with perfect pitch, and it didn't seem to cause them any problems. I wonder if this whole "curse" idea is pretty much just sour grapes.

-Travis

P.S. It's funny, I've seen this question asked before in a few different places, and yet I don't think I've ever even seen one reply that said, "yeah, I took the course and now I have perfect pitch." Curious...[This message was edited by Travis Bernhardt on 13 November 2004 at 03:48 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 13 Nov 2004 5:11 pm

Ray, I'm not sure you'll be dancing a jig, but for the first post in about fifty years, I TOTALLY agree with you.

There's another guy that tunes EVERY NOTE N CHANGE to the little illumunated doo dad in the middle, or where the old Conn Stroboscope stops spinning.

His name is Buddy Emmons.

Maybe like me, he doesn't have the mental accuity to keep track of all the 43 note scales, and which note he tunes how flat except against the ones he tunes sharp, and uses as the root position for a chord he starts in another position on the fifth, of the four chord of the new five in the.... well you get the idea..

Maybe he just does it that way to be in tune.

I do it out of sheer ignorance, I'll be the first to admit it.

Other than my spite, it's my most reliable characteristic.

Now, go ahead and say something else I agree with.

I Double Dog dare you..

EJL

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 13 Nov 2004 5:20 pm

I knew a bass/trumpet player music major in the 60's who had perfect pitch. Great help in tuning up the band. Chords for songs as well. He'd listen to a song and call out the chords, even complicated ones.

His biggest grief was the jukebox. None of the songs were on pitch and it drove him crazy.

Ray Montee · Post by **Ray Montee** » 13 Nov 2004 5:57 pm

Folks you've all seen what Eric West just posted. I'm worried about him.

He's a fine steel player....takes his music very seriously and can be a very likeable sorta guy. He's a snappy, dapper dan dresser and can also look very mean on his Harley. Don't let his ultra conservative appearance throw you off. A joy to listen to any time.

Al Marcus · Post by **Al Marcus** » 13 Nov 2004 6:30 pm

I believe in what Bobby Lee says, I don't think it can be too much fun to have perfect pitch.

Steinar's post is right on.
Every musician, and probably more so, a Pedal Steel Player should develop good relative pitch.
That would be a great help.....al

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My Website..... www.cmedic.net/~almarcus/

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 13 Nov 2004 6:54 pm

But what is "perfect pitch"? Can anyone be born knowing implicitly what A-440 is? A-440 is a fixed frequency borne out of human abstraction. Just like "inches" or "degrees Fahrenheit". At some point in their lives, anyone who has perfect pitch picked up on the man-made reference that gave them their absolute point of reference. When did they make that distinction? When did they pick A=440.00000Hz over A=440.27548Hz?

Please, this is not a criticism! I just wonder how anyone who knows exactly when an instrument is in or out of tune learned what "in tune" meant.

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Bill, steelin' since '99 | Steel page | My music | Steelers' birthdays | Over 50?

Billy Joe Bailey · Post by **Billy Joe Bailey** » 13 Nov 2004 7:38 pm

What if you get your steel in perfect pitch and then have a nervous night,and the bar in your hand wants to quiver. who do you blame it on????
Maybe you panic cause you thought you saw your favorite steelplayer walk in and set down, Oh well,you could have bought that video on--- the perfect Gliss bar control--It might have helped to go alone with the shake's, and get you back into the perfect tuning. but you would'nt shell out another plug nickel for learning tools
By the way does the drunk play in perfect tuning or is he playing in another world? Well I done gone to meddle now ha ha ha ha BJ

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chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 13 Nov 2004 11:53 pm

I've worked for and with a number of guys that have perfect pitch, ears that I would kill for, and it seems to be a great asset. I've watched Tom rewrite an orchestra score on the console and know what it sounds like before it's played.

I had a session where there was myself, a percussionist and a key board player. Michael played a "gong" sound and the keyboard asked the Pro Tools guy, who had unbelievable ears, what was in the gong sound. He said that it was mostly F# with some other pitches that he named in their relative amplitudes.

I watched, in awe, while a guitar player wrote out a page of sheet music from an uptempo playback, so that we could have a score.

Imagine that you are playing to a song you've never played and you know what every chord is, when you hear it.

If I could have perfect pitch, I'd take it.

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 14 Nov 2004 4:30 am

A: You get good at what you practice;
B: Some people are just better at some things than others.
Recognizing chord forms is not the same as perfect pitch. As Bill noted above, is A always 440? Recognizing the exact 12 tones of the tempered scale must be valuable, for sure. So would being trained enough and perceptive enough to recognize complicated and oddly-voiced chord forms. I listen to a lot of Indian music, and try as they might, western musicologists have never been able to adequately classify the notes according to a 12 tone scale. Some have arbitrarily divided the octave into 22 tones, then "named" the Indian notes by what's closest; others have tried to do the same with 72-tone octaves. When these professors actually ASK the musicians what they're doing, they are told that the microtones vary from raga to raga, from ascending to descending directions within the same raga, from one school of playing to another, they vary according to the time of day, the season, the weather, the phase of the moon and not least, the microtones vary according to the style and proclivities of the musicians - that's sort of the point. I gather most of the Western professors find this answer unsatisfying in the extreme. Does a well-trained Indian musician have "perfect pitch?" I would guess that they could come a lot closer to duplicating any given 12 tempered tones than most trained Westerners, but they'd probably find the question really naive. If you've heard a good blues guitarist (SRV?) really work all the notes between a 2nd and a major 3rd, which ones were "perfect?" One of the many reasons Pablo Casals' playing of Bach's suites for solo cello is considered definitive was because of his "creative intonation." I understand the concept "perfectly" (HaHa) but I'm not sure the results are always desirable - why even hire musicians, when you can just MIDI some synthesizers and computers together and play everything "perfect?" O.K., I'll stop now.

Robert Porri · Post by **Robert Porri** » 14 Nov 2004 6:18 am

Mark,
I bought the course I think you are talking about many years ago. I never really pursued it beyond getting an idea of what it was about. Yes, it involves a lot of work and practice and I can't say that it works because I didn't keep working on it. I remember one of the first things covered (as an example for you) was the note F# was talked about. There was supposedly a certain "raspiness" to the note. Suggestion or whatever, I thought I could hear what the guy was talking about. The general idea I got out of it, was that every note had a certain characteristic if you listened for it. Very quickly in the course, relative pitch was talked about, and courses in that were offered. I decided just to work on my relative pitch without that specific course. I will say though, that the I thought the concept was interesting and I didn't regret buying the course to find out what it was about.

And Mark, you've got some really awesome looking instruments on that website!

Bob P.

Steinar Gregertsen · Post by **Steinar Gregertsen** » 14 Nov 2004 6:24 am

What's been described in some previous posts - writing scores and chord charts on the spot - is not something one needs perfect pitch to do.
Ten years ago I lived in a town that has Norway's biggest music university and played with many of the students and graduates. This ability was something they worked hard at developing at school,- it is a part of their ear training 'education' and some of them were frightening good at this. It is relative pitch at work.

The perfect pitch course works from the idea that each note has its own specific 'color' and you can train your ear and mind to recognize that through an almost 'meditative' technique. This all makes sense to me,- how many haven't experienced that when changing strings on a guitar you come very close to concert pitch when you tune up the new ones?

I don't think perfect pitch is a bad thing to have, but I think its value is overrated. Relative pitch can be trained to a level where it'll give you the information you need in most situations.

Steinar

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www.gregertsen.com

[This message was edited by Steinar Gregertsen on 14 November 2004 at 06:25 AM.]

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 14 Nov 2004 6:53 am

I thought perfect pitch was when you threw a banjo and hit an accordion!!

Uff-Da!

Buck Dilly · Post by **Buck Dilly** » 14 Nov 2004 8:14 am

No...It's when you toss an accordian in the toilet, without hitting the rim!

Dan Burnham · Post by **Dan Burnham** » 14 Nov 2004 8:57 am

The ability to distinguish and identify any given note without any musical or tonal support. It is usually based upon 440 tuning.
Like the others have said, It's not all it's suppose to be. I relative pitch which means if you play a c on the piano after that point I can identify or hum any note you want.
Now even if you don't have either, I don't believe it really affects your ability to play steel.
It helped me when I was studying Music at the University of Tennessee.
As long as you can hear when the music changes and you know where it goes you should be ok.
Like one guy said who played in the bars all the time, tune doesn't matter after 12:00 midnight, its all relative at that point,

Roy Ayres · Post by **Roy Ayres** » 14 Nov 2004 9:36 am

The University of California says: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Our study suggests that a genetic predisposition for Perfect Pitch and musical training are both important for the development of Perfect Pitch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Want to read something interesting? Check out this link:
U. of California Study on Perfect (Absolute) pitch

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Visit my Web Site at RoysFootprints.com
Browse my Photo Album and be sure to sign my Guest Book.[This message was edited by Roy Ayres on 14 November 2004 at 09:38 AM.]

Johan Jansen · Post by **Johan Jansen** » 14 Nov 2004 10:19 am

I believe it's a gift or talent, you have it, or not....
JJ

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 14 Nov 2004 10:49 am

It seems to me to be related to autism - an unusual narrowly focused gift with few real benefits. Beyond being able to tell what key a song is in, I don't see its usefulness.

Like most musicians, I can identify a note or chord pretty well if I know the key as a reference. This is nothing like having perfect pitch. A person with perfect pitch can recognise a note without any reference, tell you its name and tell you if its sharp or flat (of what, I've always wondered?).

I think this would drive me crazy! I'm already bothered by the sound of singers who are flat or sharp of the band. I don't need the added annoyance of knowing that the whole band is sharp or flat of the reference in my head. What about slow cassette players? What about DJ's who enjoy using that "pitch control" knob? Arrghh! Evenything's out of tune!

I think it would be a curse, even a handicap. Like I said, it seems like a form of autism to me.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 14 Nov 2004 11:25 am

Chas, I think you are confusing a very highly trained ear, with extra strong sulfege abilities,
with perfect pitch.
This ear trained thing is good.

But perfect pitch means that person hears ANY deviation
from what THEY perceive as exact pitch,
and then can't deal with it well if it is not on their personal perfect pitch reference. A441 or 438 etc. Some are right on 440, which is relatively standard.

This is a horrible existence in the real world of normal ears. and modified tunings.
Even those highly trained ones you mentioned above can drive a person cursed with pefect pitch round the bend.

I have also worked with these types and they are wonderful to work with. So trained they can do a score after the show, from memory.

Actually most musicians over here have a much higher level of sulfege training the americans do.

But one quirk, if you ever went to Berklee and were asked to transpose,
you moved DO to what ever key you wanted or called it I (one)
So key of F, F = Do, key of C, C=Do key of Eb, Eb=Do.
Similar to the Nashville number system.

Over here Do is ALWAYS C in any key,
F is always Fa... this is from their sulfege training.
But doesn't lend itself to on the fly transposing as well.

Also in american schools we have
Do Re Me Fa So La Ti Do
............But here Ti is called Si pronounced C
Do Re Me Fa So La Si Do

These two things has been driving me nuts for most of the decade.
Some one says key of Si mineur and I think C minor not B minor
We yanks call it Ti to avoid this confusion.