Recap: Why learn 6th tuning & simple mode theory

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 21 Aug 2005 3:54 pm

For Folks that might not want to deal with so much music theory / numbers / math / etc:

Here's some concepts and supporting links that might help avoid much of the "numbers & math" and better serve the more-rote / hands-on methods some Folks have said they prefer to learn by.

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FORGET / DISREGARD ALL THE MODE NAMES AND FANCY MINOR AND EXTENSION NOTE NAMES IF YOU WISH; IT'S RELATIVELY SIMPLE even without knowing the mode names and fancy extension names:

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Let's assume a Steel is tuned to C6 (although the info will work identically for any 6th tuning ... and allot of it will work for any tuning).

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I am assuming that most players understand the I, IV and V chord structure of most popular songs we play.

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This instruction does not cover playing melody; It only covers putting the bar where a song's chords are ...and where the corresponding scales are, where the Player can find (figure-out) how to navigate the song's chord changes and can have some correct scale notes to work with.

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SIMPLE BAR PLACEMENT FOR I, IV AND V CHORDS:

On Steel Guitar; Whatever key a song is in, we can place the tone bar on the neck's strings at the 6th chord fret for that key / tonic / "I" chord of the song. Let's say our Steel is tuned to C6 and the song is in the key of C; So we can STRUM across the strings either at the open (no bar) position or at the 12th fret ...to hear the "I" chord (C6). When the song's chord change goes to the IV chord, we move the bar to the IV6 (F6) fret, and we can strum / hear the IV chord. When the song goes to the V chord, we can move our bar up 2 frets to the V6 fret and strum / hear our V chord.

If a person doesn't know how to find the I6 / (C6), IV6 / (F6), V6 / (G6) fret positions, then look at the far right side of this chart. Notice that locating where I6,IV6,V6 chords are is learned & done by counting the Major 7 scale step sequence up the neck from the I Homebase position. The Major scale steps 1 (W) 2 (W) 3(h)4 (W) 5 (W) 6 (W) 7(h)1 are commonly written in roman numerals for chords (to differentiate notes from chords notations): I (W) II (W) III(h)IV (W) V (W) VI (W) VII(h)I.

In making I,IV,V chord changes via the above methods, there is a set number of frets that we moved the bar from the "I" position to get our IV, and V chords. That set number of frets is a pattern or template that we use to apply the same mathematical bar placement for I/IV/V songs in any key, by first placing the bar at the I6 fret for the song's key to orient the pattern / template in our minds and eyes. WE CAN CALL THAT I6 CHORD FRET OUR HOMEBASE POSITION FOR THE "I" CHORD.

The IV6 chord position will ALWAYS be 5 frets above the I6, or 7 frets below the I6. The V6 fret will ALWAYS be 2 frets higher than the IV6 fret.

With a C6 tuning, and for a song in the key of C, the tonic / key / I-chord will be located at the nut (the open position) or at the 12th fret.

But ALSO, only 2 frets away from our I6 chord, at the 10th fret, is the fret that has all the other notes in the dominant 7 scale that our I6 chord is sitting in but are not on our 6th chord fret. The chord's fret plus the remaining notes' fret is commonly called a fret box; A "square" of 2 frets that has the scale we want to play from. AND, the notes in those boxes are all stacked so that the notes on 1 fret are in harmony with the other notes on that fret. So a box gives us the ability to play multiple strings in harmony with each other within the box, moving between the two frets for the box's entire scale in correst harmony between the strings at each of those frets. Click here to see that Box for C6 (I6 for the key of C). The notes in a 6th chord box are 7th scale / chord notes when taken as a whole scale. It's a Dominant 7 box, not a Major 7 box. Dominat 7 scale has a b7 note, while a Major 7 has a natural 7 note. ALL of the 6th chords sit in a Dominant 7th scale box.

If a person doesn't know the structural difference between Dominant 7 and Major 7, they can probably derive enough from this chart to probably figure it out. Asking questions here on the SGF or studying elsewhere can provide the practical aspects of the difference.

NOW; The song goes to the IV chord, so we move our bar to the IV6 chord fret (F6 in our example's case); And VOILA we find that there is a IV6 / F6 box just like there was a I6 / C6 box we just departed from going to IV6 / F6, ...excpet that the notes in that box are the IV7 scale rather than the I7 scale. And THE ALPHA-NUMBERICAL NOTES / ROOTS on the
the scale / chord finding template chage from a C6 scales / chords to F6 scales & chords ...while THE NUMBER SYSTEM STRUCTURE REMAINS THE SAME (allowing us to use the same finding methods on the chart except that the Homebase chord is now F instead of C ...so all the scales and chords there become F scales / chords rather than C scales / chords). Knowing this allows us to make our IV chord or it's scale notes any quality (major, minor, simple or fancy) we might desire or the song calls for.

Then the song's chord goes to the V chord (G in our example), so we move the tone bar up 2 frets to V6 (G6)...and sure enough, there is a V6 box just as there was a I6 and IV6 box.

OOPS, the song suddenly modulates to the II chord. No biggie, we move our I6 chord up 2 frets to II6 until the song goes to whatever it's next chord is. And sure enough, there's a box for II6 just like I6,IV6,V6.

Yikes, the song also goes to an Aminor chord. NO BIGGIE, we simply move our bar to the Amin7 fret and box. But how do we do that??? SIMPLE: We now think of A6 as the Homebase on the navigation template, ...from which to find our Amin7 chord and box relative to A6 being the Homebase instead of C that's on the chart; ...and by assigning A6 as Homebase, we find the Amin7 is 3 frets up from A6. Minor7 chord will ALWAYS be 3 frets up from it's same-root (aka homebase) 6th chord.

And LORDY BE ...we find that Amin7 chord is at the same fret as C6 CHORD; ...BUT we also find that the full scale box for Amin7 extends UPSCALE 2 frets from the Amin7 chord fret (while the box for C6 extended downscale 2 frets). (ATTENTION: Major scale boxes extend DOWN-scale from their Major chords ... and minor scales boxes extend UP-scale from their minor chords). ~~~~~~~ SO, ...very interesting...; the Amin7 box is the same 2 frets that C6 CHORD and D6 CHORD are on (and 6 other chords are also on each of those frets; BUT IT'S NOT NECCESSARY THAT WE KNOW RIGHT-OFF WHAT SAME-CHORDS SHARE THE SAME FRETS (called Substitution); THAT CAN COME NATURALLY WITH ADEQUATE TIME / PRACTICE / DISCOVERY. All we have to do is study / learn / MEMORIZE the QUITE SIMPLE navigation portions of the navigation template IN WHATEVER SIMPLER TERMS WE DESIRE, and study / learn how the template / chart works.

AGAIN, YOU CAN FORGET / DISREGARD ALL THE MODE NAMES AND FANCY MINOR NAMES IF YOU WISH; IT'S RELATIVELY SIMPLE even without knowing the mode names and fancy extension names; TO WIT:

The vast majority of popular songs' scales / chords are either Dominant 7 or Major 7 (a Player MUST study or practice by ear to know the difference in use ...and in many cases they are interchangeable with each other). ~~~~~~~ And minor chords / scales / riffs for accompanying a large majority of popular songs can be played at the min7 fret / box ...found by counting from whatever the Homebase chord is on the navigation template. Min7 works in many cases because in band's or recording's rythm section, emphasis is upon the triads and harmonious passages linking the triad chords in the song, ...and in many/most cases the b7 in min7 is decently harmonious and ear-familiar to whatever a band / recording is playing for minor.

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Relatively easy / simple doesn't mean "delivered on a silver platter overnight"; It means that someone can most likely find it reasonably simple and easy to take it step by step with paper, pencil and guitar in hand (ie, play / woodshed / experiment) ...during which I know of no other method that will deliver so much in the same amount of time and application ...notwithstanding that the SGF discussions are a gold mine of additional info, questions, answers and different perspectives.

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Read and woodshed-WITH this (or any) instruction at least 5 times for best results.

That's enough for now (albeit I have some other info I'm working on and hope to post here soon).

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Aloha,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 24 August 2005 at 02:00 PM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 24 Aug 2005 12:52 am

I "promised" I would post some additional info / perspectives / angles here. But some critical things have caught up with me here at the "ranch"; Requiring me to trim down most other unneccessary things.

Anyone needing some questions answered can email me, and I'll try my best to be able to answer them.

Aloha,
DT~

Bill Mayville · Post by **Bill Mayville** » 24 Aug 2005 2:58 am

Mr.Denny Turner.
What are you thinking.?Why are you trying to sound like explaining this stuff is easy. Yes, you have turned it into stuff. Meaningless pieces om music I think!If you were the only person helping newbies, I would be the only Teacher teaching.Some of your Stuff turns learning into trash!Especially church modes.
Music can be terrible to learn,with out any garbage,and terrible to learn after a two hour flight.
I use this term sometimes!.There are only Eight notes you need to learn today.And one of them is a repeat.It is not as hard as you think!Any drawings on the wall they don't look at in the beginning.They challenge me with them ,which is good to let them clear their own minds.
I am where I cannot see the original post and his name. Sir. I am sure you are a brain when it comes to music.Trying to follow anything you are putting out is one of the reasons this Instrument is taking so long to learn.My church mode says I still love you.
Bill Mayville

Andy Volk · Post by **Andy Volk** » 24 Aug 2005 3:21 am

Message to Denny (and Rick too!) with apologies to Abraham Lincoln:

"You can help some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can not help all of the people all of the time."

"You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink" - anonymous

Thank you so much for the countless hours you've spent trying to understand, codify, and illustrate a system for improvising on lap steel guitar as well as the efforts you've put in to help others make musical progress, Never forget that many of us appreciate it very, very much.
[This message was edited by Andy Volk on 24 August 2005 at 01:18 PM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 24 Aug 2005 3:52 am

Denny, Rick, and others, your contributions to us here in No Peddlers are nothing less than noble, helpful, and unselfish. The time you have devoted to the research and the time you have taken to sit down and type this out for us (many times) shows us a person with a generous soul.

Please don't be discouraged by negativity. There will always be negativity in all walks of life. Those who are able to rise above it will move forward and will realize their goals.

I don't know where else this valuable information can be found. This forum is a great and wonderful place. Not only can you learn about steel guitar, you can learn how to interact with a worldwide base of friends that you may never meet face to face, and always share a common bond.

I will be making a contribution to the forum this moning when I arrive at my office.

Jay Fagerlie · Post by **Jay Fagerlie** » 24 Aug 2005 5:21 am

To almost quote a favorite show:
"This stuff is GOLD Denny, it's GOLD!"

Even without a video of it.

Thank you Denny and everyone else for the serious effort this has taken. I have learned a great deal aleady and will no doubt learn more as I go along.

Jay
edited for early morning clam....

[This message was edited by Jay Fagerlie on 24 August 2005 at 06:22 AM.]

Joel Newman · Post by **Joel Newman** » 24 Aug 2005 6:34 am

I'm sorry but I just feel moved to reply reading some of the above posts, . . . I just want to heartily send my thanks to Denny and Rick and anyone else who decides to take it upon themselves to be a positive force for this silly instrument we all seem to love,(I guess, . . or why would you be reading my drivil).I'm still a newbie as a steeler, but I'll dust my knucles to say I'm a decent musician. For what it's worth, Denny and Rick have it totally correct in dealing with Diatonic Harmony. In truth, I feel as though they have put together a thesis for us here at SGF. It took alot of positive energy and time and yes, passion.But when the smoke clears we collectively can just see it as information. It's our choice to use it or not. . . .I understand frustration, but I just don't get going to great lengths to put down the info or the author. Maybe if you had a magic wand to give out to all the forum members that would make up for all abuses. Until that time, I for one am gonna keep trying to sus out Denny's box positions as I love that feeling when the light bulb goes on in my brain . . .

Mark Vinbury · Post by **Mark Vinbury** » 24 Aug 2005 7:49 am

I printed out many pages of Denny's Lessons months ago and am slowly absorbing it.Thank you Denny.
For me,I had to start with E tuning as Rick suggests.It helped me to be able to play stuff I was familiar with right off the bat.Blues shuffles,blues penta-what-cha-ma-callit scales etc.
so I could jam with my friends.
What I really wanted at first was to play stuff I already knew on a cool, different instrument that made distinct sounds different from a guitar.Same as when we buy a stomp box.Want the stuff we already know to sound cool and different.
I didn't want to have to jam a bunch of western swing tunes down my bands throat just cause I could hack through on my C6th tuning.
At least in E tuning I could find the Key and notes I wanted to hit were sort of on the strings I expected them to be on.
Modal improvising on C6th over complicated chord progressions(more than 3 chords) just has to wait, partly till I get bar and finger picks going and mostly cause it's a whole new world.Just listen to The Superslide DVD. I don't think I heard one riff I ever played on guitar.

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 24 Aug 2005 8:17 am

I have to send a big THANK YOU to both Denny and Rick. This stuff is helping me beyond what you might imagine and I appreciate the time and effort you guys both shared with the forum crew. Great job and great stuff! Is this a great forum or what!

Rick

Tom Jordan · Post by **Tom Jordan** » 24 Aug 2005 8:22 am

I have benefited greatly from Denny's course. It is presented in a way that my mind functions--paterns. I wish that I was as giving and dedicated to helping others he is. Thanks Denny!

I have a formal music background through public education. I learned how to read music and play music but I could not improvise until I "taught myself" guitar with a few popular piano books and by ear...funny huh? I still can't improvise on the sax but I can comfortably sit in with steel and guitar on most anything without a second thought.

Ear training is not without its pitfalls either...once you get past the mockingbird stage and want to start developing your "own" styles and sounds then it is important that you know where your thoughts are coming from and where to find them on the neck...this is where Denny and Rick and countless others come in. They are offering educated ideas for FREE that are better than any thing that I picked up through school or the guitar store...cool, huh?

And finally, music is a language. Studies have suggested that the same area of the brain that processes language also processes music. If you really want to understand either you're gonna hafta study. There is nothing easy about it and I know of no "ebonics" course for music...I wooda tookit! Music is a disipline but it is also fun and rewarding.

Howard also has a great suggestion as far as attending an adult school course. I think the most valuable item there is that you can get other peoples input/ideas that may open the doors quicker. If you can't do that, then the video courses are good (as some here have suggested) because you can get a visual and audio clarafication of the printed material...I struggled with that initially with Denny's course but like he suggested, I went through it "5 times" and more until I grasped it (I think). I also would play the chord in question and while it was still ringing in my ears would move to the "mode" position to compare the mode.

Ooops, I'm rambling!

Tom[This message was edited by Tom Jordan on 24 August 2005 at 09:28 AM.]

seldomfed · Post by **seldomfed** » 24 Aug 2005 11:26 am

big THANK YOU to both Denny and Rick

2nd that! Thanks for sharing guys. You have really big brains!

later, Chris

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Chris Kennison
Colorado

Rick Aiello · Post by **Rick Aiello** » 24 Aug 2005 4:28 pm

I "stewed" on this all day ... joked around on other threads ......

Was just gonna ignore it ... but can't ...

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>

Mr.Denny Turner. What are you thinking.?

Why are you trying to sound like explaining this stuff is easy.

Yes, you have turned it into stuff.

Meaningless pieces om music I think!

If you were the only person helping newbies, I would be the only Teacher teaching.

Some of your Stuff turns learning into trash! Especially church modes.

Music can be terrible to learn,with out any garbage,and terrible to learn after a two hour flight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mr. Mayville ... I see from your profile you have been a member of the Steel Guitar Forum since October of 2001.

The above quote was your sixth post ... ever.

As far as I'm concerned ... your articulate post ...

... is a personal attack on Denny ...

I said early on in this post ... and was "called on it" :

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Those who are not interested ... well, don't click on these links.

Those who think they can explain Modal theory in respect to the C6 steel guitar tuning better than it has already been done here ...

Open up a web page ... and have at it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I say ... put up ... or shut up

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Aiello's House of Gauss


My wife and I don't think alike. She donates money to the homeless and I donate money to the topless! ... R. Dangerfield

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 26 Aug 2005 6:19 am

The Hawaiian Steel Guitarist who played so well with prosthetic wrist devices was Billy Hew Lin. A search of the SGF should bring up some discussions about Billy.

Aloha,
DT~

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 26 Aug 2005 6:41 am

Denny, that's another thread. You hit the wrong button. That's what you get for playing out of your modal box!!!

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 26 Aug 2005 6:59 am

Hmmmmm...... quote from above:

If you're not aware, there was a very successful and popular Hawaiian Steeler about 60 years ago who played with hand prosthetics! He played quite well with special leather cup devices on each wrist stump. Sorry I don't remember his name right-off, but I'll bet someone else will chime right in here with the name pretty soon.

Aloha,
DT~

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 26 Aug 2005 7:26 am

Well, if you don't think you need any of this stuff in your playing, then move along. If you want to have a deeper understanding as to what improvisation is all about, come join the party.

Just to recap and define what modes are used for:

Modes are used as "chord-scales". A "chord-scale" is a scale that is used for melodic improvisation on a particular chord type when it functions in a particular way within a chord progression. As an example, if you look at the last 4 bars of "Crazy" by Willie Nelson, you'll see:

F / Em / - Dm / A7 / - Dm / G7 / - C / / /

The F functions as the IV of C, so we have the F Lydian. If you look at Em, it is the IIIm of C, so we use the Phrygian mode. Why is this significant? Because we need to define what role a chord plays in the harmonic movement of the song. Play an E Aeolian (essentially E Natural Minor) and you get a dirty look; play an E Dorian mode here (essentially a D scale) and you're off the bandstand.

We continue with Dm, or IIm, which is D Dorian. Next, A7 functions as a VI7 of C, which leaves us many options. But, if we consider A7 in its relationship to the chord it follows and leads back to (Dm), it is a V7 of Imin (Dmin). We played the D Dorian for Dm, now make a change to suit the harmony of A7 (use a C# in place of C, and try Bb in place of B within the scale). That gives us D Harmonic Minor. A7 would use the 5th mode of D Harmonic Minor (A A# C# D E F G A). Try it--maybe you've been playing that all along and didn't know what it was. In place of D Dorian, play the D Harmonic Minor.

Then we have G7, V7, which is G Mixolydian; but, this is where can have a little fun with substitutions. We can substitute a Db7 of Fm6 for G7. Try playing Db Lydian or F Melodic Minor. It's all about experimentation: no one can tell you what to play. This is what developing a style is all about.

When we get into using upper extensions (very important, especially for steel players) the modes, or chord scalees define the value of our extensions. In the case of Crazy above, if you were to add a 9th to the basic harmony, right off the bat, based on the proper mode you'd see that the E Phrygian mode (E F G A B C D E) has as its 9th (or 2nd) an F, which would be equivalent to a b9 in the E Natural Minor scale. You don't want to play an F# as an extension here! This is one of the things that modes do for us--they keep us clued in.

In the beginning, any chord-scale should contain all of the notes of the chord (i.e. chord tones) that it will be used on. Usually we are dealing with 7th chords which contain 4 notes. There are usually
3 "non chord tones" included in the scale bringing the total to 7 notes
all together in the chord-scale.

Therefore, most chord-scales will have a Root, some sort of a 3rd (depending on the chord type), some sort of a 5th (depending on the chord type) and some sort of a 7th (depending on the chord type). (R 3 5 7)

There will usually be some sort of a 2nd (depending on the chord type) between the Root and the 3rd.

There will usually be some sort of a 4th (depending on the chord type) between the 3rd and the 5th.

There will usually be some sort of a 6th (depending on the chord type) between the 5th and the 7th.

When you are starting out, a chord-scale can really be thought of as an ARPEGGIO with some extra colour tones thrown in.

[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 26 August 2005 at 08:41 AM.][This message was edited by Mike Neer on 26 August 2005 at 08:44 AM.]

Cris Linscott · Post by **Cris Linscott** » 26 Aug 2005 7:56 am

For Denny & Rick

I can't read music, pick most things out by ear or by pestering Dan (my playing partner). I'm no mathmatician and music theory scares me; once after a one to one music class at school I saw the teacher in tears. I sit on the sidelines in this forum and I watch, read & learn.

But, in the interests of improving on my playing and becoming less dependant on others, I read Denny's original post in the spirit of adventure. Whilst I won't say that a lightbulb flicked into life over my head I really got caught by his enthusiasm for his subject. Rick has added to this by way of his explanations and interpretations.

Later in the thread HowardR suggested that things would become clearer following some basic music theory preferably from a human being. I roped Dan into this who very patiently went through the basics. In the space of a couple of hours one Sunday evening I finally 'got'the roman numerals, thirds, fifths and sevenths et al; even some chord construction theory. They aren't second nature yet by any stretch of the imagination but its an enormous leap for me. After many years of music theory almost bringing on panic attacks I realised that I'd been talking myself out of being able to do this.. like a self fulfilling prophecy: "This is too hard. I can't do it"

I'm grateful to you both, and to others, for the time you taken. Its such a shame that some of the postings on this thread have had a mean spirit to them but in no way should either of you take them to heart. Keep setting the challenges; I for one am listening.

End of my homily.... thanks to you both
regards

Cris

Mike Neer · Post by **Mike Neer** » 26 Aug 2005 7:59 am

Another good link for this stuff is here.

On a final note, probably the most significant attribute of improvisation, particularly jazz based, is arpeggios. If you explore arpeggios to their fullest potential, learning all the ins and outs of the harmony, you've got all the tools you need to become an improviser, especailly on steel guitar, where this falls so naturally. This is the way that Joaquin Murphy played. It's the way Django played. Django was fearless in his approach to improvisation, and arpeggios were at the core. Its not so much the scale or the mode, it's what you do with it and how you harmonize it and substitute one for another.[This message was edited by Mike Neer on 26 August 2005 at 09:14 AM.][This message was edited by Mike Neer on 26 August 2005 at 09:15 AM.]

Denny Turner · Post by **Denny Turner** » 27 Aug 2005 2:21 pm

First; Please remember that my modal navigation / substitution material IS NOT about the abstract of modal theory. It is about the simple church-mode template that provides us a picture (basic theory prerequisite and provided) of where the harmonic scales and chords we use the most are located on the Steel neck; And provides the template to launch as much additional modal theory as one might desire (and Thanks to those that provide that excellent additional / optional info in the discussions).

-------

Secondly; I usually "do not mind" any form of criticism at all, and hereby Thank All for all critique / criticism (and certainly for kind words). Criticism is a treasure in finding the needs and methods to suit as many people as possible. And most food fights can usually be turned into more enjoyable commo if not comedy. Not belittling anyone who doesn't find the humor (

).

....IMHO.

With that said, I'll climb down off my shaky soap-box, take off my "John3:16" T-shirt, ...leave this discussion to you good folk, ...while I put back-on my WWI pilot helmet & goggles, silver metalflake cowboy boots and purple panty hose, and get back to serious problems with some "neighbors" that calls for allot more well&long-deserved butt-prune in their territory!

Thanks again,
Aloha,
DT~
[This message was edited by Denny Turner on 28 August 2005 at 04:26 AM.]

HowardR · Post by **HowardR** » 27 Aug 2005 7:03 pm

Well, there we have it. I think everything is pretty much covered. Time to go back and slowly digest that which we were given.

Also time to print out this thread as it's a valuable resourse.

For desert, I'm having C6 a la mode......

Harry Williams · Post by **Harry Williams** » 27 Aug 2005 8:23 pm

I've been playing C6 lap steel for about 3 years, and logging onto the Forum on a regular basis. This forum has been a fantastic source of information and I thank all contributors. However Denny's Turners course has been the single most helpful document in helping me conceptualize the C6 neck. And I'm using that info EVERYTIME I pick up the instrument. On the other hand I think that Denny's sentences are a little convoluted at times, and his paragraphs could be a little shorter. You have to read each sentence carefully and make you understand it before going on. As you work your way through his course, there will be some repetition which serves to reinforce what you already know. So I personally owe a big thanks to Denny. (as well as Rick A., Andy V., Scotty's C6 lap steel method, and GAA's guide to Harmonized Scales (rahul.net/gaa/C6)).

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[This message was edited by Harry Williams on 27 August 2005 at 09:26 PM.]

Jesse Pearson · Post by **Jesse Pearson** » 4 Sep 2005 6:49 pm

I guess it helps to understand modes to understand the logic and coolness of Denny's system. It's the light burning bright I tell ya! Thanks again Denny, you da man!