Fired!

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 10 Jul 2004 10:01 pm

I think Donny's quote pretty well says it all... but to add a couple of comments.
I've worked lots of charity gigs... everything from "his house burned down" to "It's for the children, don't you care about the children?"
I can tell you that, in my humble opinion, you'll never get treated with less respect than on a charity gig. After all, everyone's in for the "good cause", so, you're just one of the hamsters. Expect to be treated like one, after all, you asked for it.

The reason places like the "Heart & Stroke foundation" , or any of the gazillion "don't you care about the children" daily fundraisers happen is to raise money. Why do they need to raise money ? To pay the staff at Said Charity..... Because they're not stupid enough to work for nothing... unlike some musicians I know.
This is a bit of a sore point for me, 'cause why should musicians constantly be expected to work for nothing, in order to pay wages to people who may have never given a moment of their time to anything ??
And, don't bother to lecture me about their "good work". I've been in the Heart & Stroke Foundation offices in Toronto, just long enough to see the mahogany desks and double hung drapes these people seem to think are bare necessities. It makes me want to barf.
I've sat up 'till midnight in my office counting nickels for some charity, whose employees wouldn't be caught dead working at midnight for love or money. And why would they, other than sheer stupidity ?

Another point that raises it's ugly head on this forum from time to time is: "Why do we need a musicians' union?" The most obvious answer would be: In order to protect these brainless slobs from themselves, their own worst enemy.
If you want to treat yourself like Free Help, unworthy of being paid for your craft, go right ahead. Just know you're stabbing every working musician in the back, for your "exposure".
To address Quesney's original question, if a band is a "all for one, one for all" organization, and they mutually agree to give away their time for nothing, then that's their choice. But, any of you guys that are working for American Idol egomaniac singers that expect they can run the band roughshod through the machine until they make it for free, they can kiss my Royal Canadian Butt. That's my opinion on that situation.
Maybe people only respect musicians as much as they respect themselves. Think on that.
I do 2 charity gigs a year. That's my limit, and that's how I explain it to the masses when they call. One exemption to that rule would be my monthly gigs at the local old age home. If you want to work for nothing for charity, and see a real difference in people's quality of life because of your choices, that's the place to play, imho.
Without exception, every other charity gig I've ever played has illuminated someone's finger in the till, when the smoke cleared.

I also make the point from time to time that, although I don't depend on music to pay my rent, I have to be respectful of those with whom I work who do.

Yours grumpily,
-John

[This message was edited by John Steele on 10 July 2004 at 11:19 PM.]

John Davis · Post by **John Davis** » 11 Jul 2004 1:42 am

This is an interesting thread so many diverse opinions!, has anyone else experiancd this Guy phones up,needs a steel player for a gig that evening I say sure I will do it, only about 30 miles down the road
at Luton and I love to work with a different band whenever I can, But this lot!!!!!!!
AGH!!... they were the worst experiance of my life, sure we got paid, British Country music club are pretty good if you turn up and do the gig, but I was so embarassed at being there I gave my share back to the organizer, That was my idea of a freebee, taught me not to jump in with both feet,unless you can see where your landing.Band was called "Sidewinder" no connexion to the mdern incarnation of the same name This was about 25 years ago! and they were lower than whale shit! and thats at the bottom of the ocean!!!!!!!!

John Davis · Post by **John Davis** » 11 Jul 2004 1:48 am

I apologise for my expletive, but it still makes me mad to think about it! Don`t normally run off at the mouth like that!

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 11 Jul 2004 2:57 am

Oh Bobbe, I dunno. Sometimes I'm wrong in spades. I think growing up for me meant realising that I didn't really have to be right. I just had to be.

The most trouble I was ever in, I had money in my pocket and I was right...

EJL[This message was edited by Eric West on 11 July 2004 at 01:38 PM.]

Quesney Gibbs · Post by **Quesney Gibbs** » 11 Jul 2004 4:16 am

The job I was expected to do for free was for some friends of the band leader and his wife (the bit#h) who wanted to renew their wedding vows.

No offer of pay for the band but they did say there would be free sandwiches all around.

I was expected to cancel my plans, drive 30 miles to get my rig, drive 30 miles back, do the freebee, eat a nice bologna sandwich and then drive 30 miles back to the place where we were playing and set up again. And then drive 30 miles back home.

I have not spent years playing, investing thousands of dollars in my equipment to play at the whim of idiots who know nothing about music.

I do know that the band was fired the next weekend. Yeaaaaaaaahahhhhh

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 11 Jul 2004 5:25 am

I remember playing a benefit for a local dude, he was a welder by trade, and a MONSTER of a mandolin/guitar picker. We played, and when the hat got passed, everybody in the band kicked in a few bucks. We only drove about a hundred miles to get there(and a hundred home), but it was worth it when the guy came over with tears in his eyes, shook our hands, and said, "bless you, brother."
That was on a Sunday, he died later that week.
One of the best gigs I'll ever play.
And I give to the United Way, and designate where my donation goes(it's the Faith Home, a local Spirit-based recovery center for alcoholics and drug addicts---there but for the Grace of God...), and get a thank-you card from them, which notes the amount.
The flip side was playing a local congressman's annual barbeque for free, featuring our bluegrass band, and a high school marching band. The banjo player's grandad lined it up for us(thanks, Gramps), saying we'd get LOTS of exposure, LOTS of gigs, LOTS of food, LOTS of liquor----
The P.A. was one SM55, and(I kid you not) a guy with a bullhorn, holding it in front of our instruments when we took a ride!
We need to give something back. Just need to make sure who we're giving it to.

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 11 Jul 2004 6:31 am

We need to give something back. Just need to make sure who we're giving it to."

way to go Stephen

[This message was edited by CrowBear Schmitt on 11 July 2004 at 07:31 AM.]

Jim Thompson · Post by **Jim Thompson** » 11 Jul 2004 10:01 am

Ques, you did the right thing. That was not the kind of gig we do for nothing. If the band leader wanted to do his friend a favor then he should book the band, and discount the price to his friend, minus his pay for the job. Don't take away from the rest of the guys in the band. That band leader is very inconsiderate of his people. Sadly enough there are quite a few of those out there too. I've played music for over 30 years and through the years have done a lot of freebes. Some that I should'nt have done but I learned from those mistakes. Now the only freebes that I do are for some individual that's in need of help. Severe health problems or some family disaster or something like that. And then only if I know the ones that are putting the event together. I've seen some where the ones putting on the event made more from it than they gave to the person it was supposed to be for. I won't do anymore for a club or bar just wanting to raise money for their establishment. That's what they are in business for in the first place. Around here the best ones for that are the "Legions" and "Eagles", and "Moose" clubs. They say that if you do their benifit or whatever then they will book your band on the regular band nights. As soon as they elect new officers the new entertainment chairman only calls his freinds and gives the work to them. Another good one for misusing bands is radio stations. They say it's good exposure. Just remember one thing- "People die from exposure". Don't let them catch you in that trap. When you raise your standards you also raise your level of respect that you get from those who would other wise take advantage of you.

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Zum U-12 8&6
John Hughey's biggest fan

Jim Florence · Post by **Jim Florence** » 11 Jul 2004 12:42 pm

I can't remember when I've enjoyed a thread this much. As any of you who are as old as I am, will see a bunch of nostalgia here. I have been there and done that on every one of these cases. And don't you remember when almost every lead singer was a drunk, and would show up [If he had a guitar at all] he would need an "E" string,would need someone to tune it for him, and would need to plug into your amplifier, and couldn't finish out the gig.
And they were frequently wanting you to play for free, because this guy can get us good jobs.[He was secretly being paid]
Or how about this one, "When we get the crowd built up, I'll give you lots more money" If you remember that time never came.
But I've had a lot of fun in these 72 years.
Jim

Jim Florence · Post by **Jim Florence** » 11 Jul 2004 12:47 pm

Sorry, I got carried away and strayed off the subject.
Them folks just didn't get along

Kurt Graber · Post by **Kurt Graber** » 11 Jul 2004 2:55 pm

You did the right thing. I get along with just about every band I have been with but I always have a vote. Never lose your vote or respect. I have been fired one time in 25 years of playing because I wouldn't give up part of my pay for a sound system investment. I know many of you have been there...etcc but you never ever get anything for your money investment when the band splits up. Most bands do not put you in a situation unless it's a group vote. Depending on the situation, I'll play for free if I believe in the cause. Bottom line is this. You stuck to your guns and said no. Unfortunately you got fired for it. Nevertheless; I respect you for your decision and they are going to think twice about the situation in the future. If it's one thing I have learned in 25 years it's this. It's more important to play in a band where everyone gets along and thinks on the same level than to put up with drunks, egos and jerks who will walk all over you. You will enjoy yourself a lot more too.

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 11 Jul 2004 3:19 pm

The reason places like the "Heart & Stroke foundation" , or any of the gazillion "don't you care about the children" daily fundraisers happen is to raise money. Why do they need to raise money ? To pay the staff at Said Charity..... Because they're not stupid enough to work for nothing... unlike some musicians I know

I'm one of those many "stupid" people who does it for the Children and damn well proud of it.

I have a lot of company too, Shriners like Nobles John Hughey, Don Helms, Herby Wallace, Walter Haynes and almost every other well known Steel Guitarist. They perform for nothing at our shows and I am sure they are equally proud of the contributions they make as well as I am to do my small part. It is an honor and priviledge to have this opportunity to do what we do for the children.

No Shriner is compensated for his work for the Shriners Childrens Hospitals and Most will pull money out of their pockets and Contribute quietly and without recognition.

The Southern Steel Guitar Convention at Saluda SC is held with 100% donated effort and no one is paid a Salary. This Show has run continously since 1987 in this manner and we will Start our 71st Convention in August 2004. It wouldn't have lasted this long if it wasn't on the level.

Why do we need to raise money? To pay the 1.6 to 2 million dollars a day required to provide absolutely FREE services to our patients. Did you ever hear of a hospital with no billing or insurance claims department, I know of quite a few, they are called The Shriners Childrens Hospitals.

Check out the link provided below for the full story.

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 The Southern Steel Guitar Convention at Saluda, SC Since 1987

For informstion on the Shriners Childrens Hospitals, go to:
http://www.shrinershq.org/hospitals/geninfo.html

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 11 July 2004 at 05:05 PM.]

Eric West · Post by **Eric West** » 11 Jul 2004 3:42 pm

Oregon has always been a NIGHTMARE of Fund Raising Scams.

At one time, NONE of the money raised had to actually go to the Target Charity.

My wife went to work for one once in the 80s. A Week Later the ORAG raided the place, and found that none of the money ever got to the Target. They missed however that ALL cash contributions went directly into the oil paintings that were hanging on the wall, and were totally missed... He ended up skating on to continue his quasi legal parasitism.

This guy was a "Professional Magician". He also enlisted one of our local long time PITA Guitar players to handle his "Firemans Fund" benefits. I knew there was something I didn't like about the guy..

I've been approached to "sell things" for such "Benefit Funds", and be able to keep half the money for myself. It's just the tip of the iceberg, and I won't say any more about it except that I know people personally from the least to the greatest in this state that I've lived in for 45 years, and our State Motto is "Oregon; One Big Surprise After Another".

As far as I know, there is still an inordinate amount of pelf that these grafters are allowed to keep for themselves. As it comes to my attention, I find ways to stop it. It's one of my hobbies.

No Shriner is compensated for his work for the Shriners Childrens Hospitals and Most will pull money out of their pockets and Contribute quietly and without recognition.

AMEN. I will ALWAYS find a way to do Shriners' benefits. Jerry Lewis despite recent grousing also has a Good Track Record. I believe the Salvation Army has a pretty good one too. I donate my old clothes to the ARC.

The Red Cross in my Experience has always been and continues to be a glorified loan shark. Not to mention peddlers of disease tainted blood.

NEVER give cash to ANY charity except the Shriners or MDA IMHO. Even then, they don't encourage it in favor of checks.

Find somebody or some group that you can DIRECTLY do some good for, and do it.

I've played benefits for local police organizations and worked for half regular wages, figuring the other half was "my contribution". I watched other people that hired us, their relatives etc "make out" too, and it left a bad taste in my mouth. I won't be doing any more of them.

Prison gigs? There are a couple good strings on the archive that concern them. Stay out of them as a customer if you can.

One way is to stay away from scamming parasitic fund raisers.

EJL

John Steele (deceased) · Post by **John Steele (deceased)** » 11 Jul 2004 4:52 pm

John,
I think your volunteering for the Shriner's Hospital is very commendable. I do it myself. My apologies if my frank statements offended you.

That's a great example of having to look closely at a charity. Would I consider the Shriner's Hospital a "good cause" ? Sure.
Similarly, would I consider contributing time to the Children's Hospital of Eastern Ontario? No.
Here, it is the responsibility of the Provincial Government to fund this hospital. They look on with glee at every dollar that's contributed by private donors, and subtract it from the health care budget. They need the bucks; after all, pork-barrelling and corruption are expensive hobbies.
Sure there are worthwhile charities... but someone would have to be a litle more specific than simply stating "it's a good cause" before I'd bite. Anyway, this is getting more like off-topic board fare.

Back to Quesney's original post - Another twist on the concept of one person asking a band to volunteer: This afternoon I played a benefit (can you believe that ?) for a guy who's on his deathbed. The women made sandwiches, we all danced up a storm and sent the guy home with $1700 in a pickle jar. No strings attached.
I was one of a five-piece house band.
It was the bass player, a dear old friend, that asked me. I wouldn't say no to him. I didn't even know the guest of honour. Although I would never consider that I'd racked up a brownie point with my friend, I know that he feels that he now owes me one.
In fact, he had four other musicians come, so I know he feels that he owes one to four different people. Interesting, huh ?

-John
p.s. By the way, John, I think that's very honourable that the doctors at the Shriner's hospital volunteer their time gratis too

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 11 Jul 2004 4:54 pm

I used to do a lot of benefits, rarely now, except for Masonic things or benefits I know will be given to my friends in need.

It was when I realized that the bartenders are getting paid, the waitresses are getting paid, the bar owner is keeping the bar receipts, and the only people NOT getting paid are the musicians who ARE THE REASON PEOPLE ARE THERE IN THE FIRST FREAKIN' PLACE, that things changed. I decided if I wanted to help someone, I'll write a check, bid on a silent auction item, or donate my services willingly, but the choice will be mine.

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Herb's Steel Guitar Pages
Texas Steel Guitar Association

Jody Sanders · Post by **Jody Sanders** » 11 Jul 2004 7:00 pm

Me too, Herb. Jody.

Pookie Anselmi · Post by **Pookie Anselmi** » 12 Jul 2004 5:43 am

Years ago when I played in bands we did a couple of freebies a year. The whole band voted whether to play or not.

Part of Ques' problem was the leader's wife.It seems anytime a spouse sticks their nose in the band, there's trouble.

Pookie A.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 12 Jul 2004 6:48 am

Q.. AMEN!.. That playing for free crap has got to stop. DON"T tell me I have to take a day of my valuable time,PAY FOR MY OWN GAS,utilize the talent I have spent most of my lifetime developing and nurturing,drag my EXPENSIVE equipment around,and then have the CRUST to tell me,its not worth paying me. BULLCRAP...You did well IMHO.. I will NEVER play in a band with a "leader". Its a democracy or I look elsewhere. When one guy makes all the decisions,be they right or wrong and everyone else has to OBEY... well,its just not an idea I would even consider being a part of. Look elsewhere...... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 12 July 2004 at 07:50 AM.]

Larry Robbins · Post by **Larry Robbins** » 12 Jul 2004 12:50 pm

Me three Herb!

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Sho-Bud ProII,Nash 400,
TC Electronics M300.
"Kindly keep it Country"

Gene H. Brown · Post by **Gene H. Brown** » 12 Jul 2004 8:13 pm

Man, isn't this one glorius business!!!!!!!!
Gene

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If You Keep Pickin That Thing, It'll Never Heal!

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 13 Jul 2004 6:20 am

Don't ever, EVER, get involved with any husband and wife team. The husband is usually a slave to the wife just to get laid,
and the wife is usually using the band as an outlet for a personal power trip.

Billy Woo · Post by **Billy Woo** » 13 Jul 2004 7:17 am

"Some Bands" have a gratuity clause to play a gig for free (once a year) for the "Members of the Band" for instance the keyboard player's daughter's wedding or the Lead Singer's son's Bar Mitzvah..of course this is an agreed arrangement as long as there are no conflict of schedule or interest but in Quesney's case..Hmmm that's a toughie, if the other band guys are cool and the gigs pay good money, it probably wouldnt hurt but compensation of some sort should have been made in the interest of "Group Harmony"..

Bronco Billy
Zumsteel U-12

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 13 Jul 2004 8:24 am

I don't mind bands with "musical directors".
The person who writes all the charts etc.
A bit of leadreship is not a bad thing per se.

I don't mind playing to support a serious frontman who plays his tail off. As long as he doesn't forget to inclued the players supporting him or her.

But a band with "A Boss" is a bummer. ESPECIALLY if "The Boss" is the weak sister musically.

But it is funny if the leader is a musically supurb musician, then usually he is a pretty good leader too.
( the excpetion is often singer / bandleaders : egomaniacs on the hoof)

John Floyd · Post by **John Floyd** » 13 Jul 2004 9:48 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Don't ever, EVER, get involved with any husband and wife team. The husband is usually a slave to the wife just to get laid,
and the wife is usually using the band as an outlet for a personal power trip.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kevin we must have crossed paths somewhere, probably when was of us was quitting and the other hiring on. We have had to worked for the same Husband and wife Artists? .

[This message was edited by John Floyd on 13 July 2004 at 10:49 AM.]

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 13 Jul 2004 11:47 am

"Husband and Wife Team"... That's an oxymoron in my house, we compete for resources.