I'm a died-in-the-wool tradional country player, but when I was a teenager, I met Gord and Paul Flemming. They were two years older than I, and taught me basic theory. They were be-boppers who had learned form their Jazz-playing father in Windsor Ontario. Gord played piano and B3, while Paul played tenor sax and upright bass. They taught me to appreciate Bird and Cannonball, and I taught them to appreciate George Jones. The theory taught me to think in intervals(the number system). It was the most valuable information I have ever learned. Now, when I am singing or playing, I always know what interval of the chord I'm on. It has helped me so much with my writing. Theory is just a valuable tool. I used it. It doesn't use me.
PS to John Steele. Have you ever met Gord Flemming in Toronto? He used to play B3 upstairs at the Waverly hotel(the Silver Dollar)
Avoiding the 4th degree while improvising...
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
-
David Doggett
- Posts: 8088
- Joined: 20 Aug 2002 12:01 am
- Location: Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
Danny Bates is getting to the heart of this question about the 4th tone, "#4", and 5th. The roots of jazz are the blues pentatonic minor scale from Africa, and the major scale from Europe. Almost every style of jazz mixes these in some way. African-Americans, the originators of all the forms (except Western swing?), played around back and forth between the two scales. Earlier, more "white" sounding forms, such as Dixieland and ragtime, used the major scale more, but more modern forms of jazz moved to "blacker" or "bluesier" sounding styles (as African-Americans became freer and more confident about their identity?). The blues scale, and jazz with the "blue notes", flats the 3rd, 5th and 7th tones of the European major scale. Some of the unflatted major scale tones are used little or none (the 2nd and 4th). So what you guys are talking about here is the emphasis on the flatted 5th (the #4) rather than on the major 4th tone. That's all there is to it.
The interesting thing to me is that both necks of the typical pedal steel come from the white traditions of country, and Western Swing. Both of these make only occasional use of the flatted 3rd, 5th and 7th. Consequently these notes are not as easily gotten on either neck as the more commonly used major scale tones (including the 9th on the E9 neck, and the 6th on the C6 neck). So it is pretty hard to play fast blues or blues-based jazz (as opposed to swing-based jazz) on either neck. That's why the Cambells and Robert Randolph and the other Sacred Steel guys said to hell with both necks, and came up with their own E7 tunings. I can't play cool jazz and avant garde jazz on steel at all, and instead pick up my tenor sax.
There was another topic a while back about people wondering why the steel has never become a real presence in the jazz world. I wonder if it is not because the two standard necks are too "white".
b0b Lee has played around with a lot of blues stuff on pedal steel. Maybe he has some opinions on this - huh, b0b?
The interesting thing to me is that both necks of the typical pedal steel come from the white traditions of country, and Western Swing. Both of these make only occasional use of the flatted 3rd, 5th and 7th. Consequently these notes are not as easily gotten on either neck as the more commonly used major scale tones (including the 9th on the E9 neck, and the 6th on the C6 neck). So it is pretty hard to play fast blues or blues-based jazz (as opposed to swing-based jazz) on either neck. That's why the Cambells and Robert Randolph and the other Sacred Steel guys said to hell with both necks, and came up with their own E7 tunings. I can't play cool jazz and avant garde jazz on steel at all, and instead pick up my tenor sax.
There was another topic a while back about people wondering why the steel has never become a real presence in the jazz world. I wonder if it is not because the two standard necks are too "white".
b0b Lee has played around with a lot of blues stuff on pedal steel. Maybe he has some opinions on this - huh, b0b?
-
Jeff Lampert
- Posts: 2696
- Joined: 8 May 2000 12:01 am
- Location: queens, new york city
David, you said enough to start around six threads!! If you want to start discussing the origins of jazz, that is a major topic in itself. You're giving a lot of emphasis to the blues sided of jazz, but to get a complete picture, you need to consider the entire picture including major forms such as Big Band, BeBop, Dixieland (you made very brief mention of it), the thousands of standards that were the pop styles of the 30's and 40's, stuff from the last 40 years, and much more. Most discussions about the roots of jazz give a HUGE amount of credit to classical composers like Chopin who were the originators of most of the classical harmony theory which is pervasive in many jazz forms. But that's just the beginning. You have barely touched the bases.<SMALL>The roots of jazz are the blues pentatonic minor scale from Africa, and the major scale from Europe. Almost every style of jazz mixes these in some way. African-Americans, the originators of all the forms (except Western swing?)</SMALL>
Pedals 5,6 are the most commonly used pedals on C6. They b5 and b3 respectively, (creating a diminished 7 chord), and a knee lever that raise the 6 to a b7 is almost standard as well, so on the surface this statement is inaccurate. It might be accurate to say that the "Sacred Steel" tuning provides a more ready vehicle to playing blues, but it's probably due to the an entire layout of pedals and strings that faciliate the playing of rock/blue forms, and not just the accessibility of a couple of blue notes.<SMALL>Both of these make only occasional use of the flatted 3rd, 5th and 7th. Consequently these notes are not as easily gotten on either neck as the more commonly used major scale tones</SMALL>
It is more likely that people that are rooted in playing jazz would not tend to select pedal steel as the vehicle for that expression. To is too pidgeon-holed as a country/Western swing instrument. How many kids in music school would select the steel over piano, guitar, or horns. Very few. Anyway, this is another huge topic in itself. Just a suggestion, but next time try to bite off a smaller piece for a subject. It'll be easier to tackle, IMHO.<SMALL>There was another topic a while back about people wondering why the steel has never become a real presence in the jazz world. I wonder if it is not because the two standard necks are too "white".</SMALL>
-
Donny Hinson
- Posts: 21192
- Joined: 16 Feb 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
Well, I <u>think</u> I got it. When you guys were talking about "improvising", I thought you meant playing single-note runs, or patterns over a rhythm chord. Now, I see you're talking chordal improvising, and not scales over a chord.
Guess I should'a figured that one out on my own, because there's a thousand songs where the melody line has a "F" note when the chord being played is a CM7! Thanks for the clarification!
Guess I should'a figured that one out on my own, because there's a thousand songs where the melody line has a "F" note when the chord being played is a CM7! Thanks for the clarification!
-
Gerald Menke
- Posts: 850
- Joined: 24 Jul 2001 12:01 am
- Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Hey all,
At this point the waters are pretty muddy in this thread (a "neck being too white"? both preposterous and offensive!!) Donny, here we have a classic case of telephone; I started the thread with predominantly single-note playing in mind, and I posed the question for the following reason: one of the bands I play for features a guitar player who plays double-neck guitars in open tunings, usually playing both necks at the same time. I "solo" to the best of my humble ability over the changes, and the guitar player/leader prefers that I play mostly single note kinds of runs. And he has a point, because it can sound too cluttered if I use the regular grips. So, I am actively interested in learning new ways of approaching single-note playing on either neck. Not easy to do at first, one becomes ACUTELY aware of habits and runs that are little more than reflexes if one tries to avoid a partcular scale tone, let me tell you. Thanks SO MUCH to all for your replies, very interesting and helpful; what a great thing this Forum is.
At this point the waters are pretty muddy in this thread (a "neck being too white"? both preposterous and offensive!!) Donny, here we have a classic case of telephone; I started the thread with predominantly single-note playing in mind, and I posed the question for the following reason: one of the bands I play for features a guitar player who plays double-neck guitars in open tunings, usually playing both necks at the same time. I "solo" to the best of my humble ability over the changes, and the guitar player/leader prefers that I play mostly single note kinds of runs. And he has a point, because it can sound too cluttered if I use the regular grips. So, I am actively interested in learning new ways of approaching single-note playing on either neck. Not easy to do at first, one becomes ACUTELY aware of habits and runs that are little more than reflexes if one tries to avoid a partcular scale tone, let me tell you. Thanks SO MUCH to all for your replies, very interesting and helpful; what a great thing this Forum is.
-
David Doggett
- Posts: 8088
- Joined: 20 Aug 2002 12:01 am
- Location: Bawl'mer, MD (formerly of MS, Nawluns, Gnashville, Knocksville, Lost Angeles, Bahsten. and Philly)
Jeff, I didn't mean to digress this thread, but it seemed to me the original discussion of the "4th degree" and "#4" seemed to be missing an appreciation that what was really being discussed was the 4th tone of the major scale and the b5th of the pentatonic minor scale, which are historically understood as the African blues scale and the European major scale. When you put those together, not only do you develop an understanding of those two tones, but of the whole spectrum of jazz.
I didn't run through every era of jazz, as you pointed out, but my point was that earlier forms had more emphasis on the major scale, and later forms more emphasis on the pentatonic minor tones (but they all mixed the two). My parenthetical sociopolitical comments were pure speculation - who knows why musical trends occur.
The old Sun Ra Archestra live and still practice down the street from me here in Philly, and when you go out to hear jazz here, an "old standard" is likely to be a Coltrane song, or even Ornette Coleman. Philly jazz is very black. Maybe that's why if I wanted to play jazz on steel, it would be very blues oriented jazz, not big band or Western swing (Jim Cohen gigs a lot around here and is so good it makes you wonder why bother with even trying swing).
Being white myself, I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone by saying both standard pedal steel necks came from white music. That's why I love them - they are my roots. My point was that a lot of major scale stuff, including 6ths and 9ths is there in the strings without even having to go to pedals and knees, which slow you down. But I grew up in North Mississippi and have also always been very blues oriented. I play country, country-rock and blues. I want to use just one neck and have been trying to figure out how to set up an extended E9 neck so I don't give up any of the traditional E9 stuff, but get some easier blues stuff. My hope is that if I ever get there, the same neck will be good for modern jazz, because of the heavy blues influence there. I have never been crazy about the C6 neck, because it seemed it was set up more for Western swing than for modern jazz. But maybe I haven't given it enough of a chance.
Of course Chopin used harmonies used later in jazz. For that matter Beethoven used jazz syncopation in the last movement of the 9th. And it's true a lot of the early jazz musicians in New Orleans had training in classical music. But it's hard to tell if jazz musicians recalled Chopin, or reinvented the same stuff. Who cares, it's all good, right!
I know we're getting off on a lot of tangents here, but hey - that's what's so fun about this forum.
I didn't run through every era of jazz, as you pointed out, but my point was that earlier forms had more emphasis on the major scale, and later forms more emphasis on the pentatonic minor tones (but they all mixed the two). My parenthetical sociopolitical comments were pure speculation - who knows why musical trends occur.
The old Sun Ra Archestra live and still practice down the street from me here in Philly, and when you go out to hear jazz here, an "old standard" is likely to be a Coltrane song, or even Ornette Coleman. Philly jazz is very black. Maybe that's why if I wanted to play jazz on steel, it would be very blues oriented jazz, not big band or Western swing (Jim Cohen gigs a lot around here and is so good it makes you wonder why bother with even trying swing).
Being white myself, I certainly didn't mean to offend anyone by saying both standard pedal steel necks came from white music. That's why I love them - they are my roots. My point was that a lot of major scale stuff, including 6ths and 9ths is there in the strings without even having to go to pedals and knees, which slow you down. But I grew up in North Mississippi and have also always been very blues oriented. I play country, country-rock and blues. I want to use just one neck and have been trying to figure out how to set up an extended E9 neck so I don't give up any of the traditional E9 stuff, but get some easier blues stuff. My hope is that if I ever get there, the same neck will be good for modern jazz, because of the heavy blues influence there. I have never been crazy about the C6 neck, because it seemed it was set up more for Western swing than for modern jazz. But maybe I haven't given it enough of a chance.
Of course Chopin used harmonies used later in jazz. For that matter Beethoven used jazz syncopation in the last movement of the 9th. And it's true a lot of the early jazz musicians in New Orleans had training in classical music. But it's hard to tell if jazz musicians recalled Chopin, or reinvented the same stuff. Who cares, it's all good, right!
I know we're getting off on a lot of tangents here, but hey - that's what's so fun about this forum.
-
Sonny Jenkins
- Posts: 4376
- Joined: 19 Sep 2000 12:01 am
- Location: Texas Masonic Retirement Center,,,Arlington Tx
After hearing all these comments on "blues", "jazz", "pentatonics", "white/black" necks (guitar) I took another look at Zane Becks tuning,,,,,makes a lot more sense and seems a lot more versatile in these respects. Emmons experimental tuning also seems headed in that direction, but Zanes does so much with so little.
-
Bob Hoffnar
- Posts: 9244
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Austin, Tx
- Contact:
Gerald,
One of my favorite things to do when improvising is to grab the 4th and then work around lydian. On the Hem CD check out the tune "night like a river". Thats turned into the rave up encore tune that I get to have fun with on the tour.
Check out Mycoy Tyners playing also. He hangs on that 4th degree like he gets paid extra for it.
It had been thought of as a dissonance in classical music for a long time. But those days are over. For more standard jazz stuff it is dissonant in a weird way because of its way of making the tonic and movement around the tonic more ambiguous.
Bob
One of my favorite things to do when improvising is to grab the 4th and then work around lydian. On the Hem CD check out the tune "night like a river". Thats turned into the rave up encore tune that I get to have fun with on the tour.
Check out Mycoy Tyners playing also. He hangs on that 4th degree like he gets paid extra for it.
It had been thought of as a dissonance in classical music for a long time. But those days are over. For more standard jazz stuff it is dissonant in a weird way because of its way of making the tonic and movement around the tonic more ambiguous.
Bob
-
Dayton Osland
- Posts: 83
- Joined: 6 Oct 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Lake Havasu City, AZ
Hi,
My 2 cents is: I do my theoretical thinking in practice. I'll try licks using something specific - such as avoiding a 4 - playing with recordings. When I play live I usually freeze and forget everything anyway. Hopefully, if I've found something truly useful in practice I'll find it when playing.
I use minor blues scale (minor pent +#4) a lot on trumpet. I hadn't realized the theoretical value but the #4 is a better "hold note". Jamie Aebersold calls the b3, #4 and b7 the "pretty notes".
As for Pentatonic on the E9th neck: Here's a bunch of G minor Pentatonic/Bb major scales. I'm trying to be able to use this myself and this is my practice material.
<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
Tuning : B D E F# G# B E G# D# F# Time Signature: 6/4
(6/4 just gets 6 notes in a meaure - has no significance)
G minor Pentatonic | | |
|----------------------------------------1-------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------1---------------|
|----------------1-------1A----------------------|
|--------1B--------------------------------------|
|1-----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------3D--------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------3-------|
|----------------1-------3-----------------------|
|--------1B--------------------------------------|
|1-----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------1---------------6-------6A------|
|--------1B--------------6-----------------------|
|1-----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------1-----------------------8-------|
|--------1B----------------------8B--------------|
|1-----------------------8-----------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------6-------6A------|
|------------------------6-----------------------|
|----------------6-------------------------------|
|--------6---------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|6A----------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|----------------6-----------------------13------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------6-----------------------13--------------|
|6A----------------------13A---------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------11------|
|----------------6---------------11--------------|
|--------6---------------11E---------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|6A----------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------8-----------------------|
|--------8D--------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------8B------10B-----|
|----------------8-------------------------------|
|8-----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|----------------------------------------13------|
|--------8D--------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------8---------------13--------------|
|8-----------------------13A---------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|----------------6---------------11--------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------11------|
|--------6---------------11E---------------------|
|6A----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------8D----------------------15D-------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------8-----------------------15------|
|8-----------------------15----------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|----------------6-----------------------13------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------6-----------------------13--------------|
|6A----------------------13A---------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|--------------------------------11--------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------11------|
|------------------------11E---------------------|
|----------------13------------------------------|
|--------13B-------------------------------------|
|13----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------8-------|
|--------------------------------8B--------------|
|------------------------8-----------------------|
|----------------8-------------------------------|
|--------8---------------------------------------|
|8-----------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|--------------------------------11--------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------11------|
|------------------------11E---------------------|
|--------11------11A-----------------------------|
|11----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------6-------6A------|
|----------------4-------6-----------------------|
|--------4---------------------------------------|
|4E----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
Created with TablEdit http://www.tabledit.com/
</pre></font>
------------------
Dayton Osland
Shobud S10<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dayton Osland on 05 October 2002 at 09:24 AM.]</p></FONT>
My 2 cents is: I do my theoretical thinking in practice. I'll try licks using something specific - such as avoiding a 4 - playing with recordings. When I play live I usually freeze and forget everything anyway
. Hopefully, if I've found something truly useful in practice I'll find it when playing.I use minor blues scale (minor pent +#4) a lot on trumpet. I hadn't realized the theoretical value but the #4 is a better "hold note". Jamie Aebersold calls the b3, #4 and b7 the "pretty notes".
As for Pentatonic on the E9th neck: Here's a bunch of G minor Pentatonic/Bb major scales. I'm trying to be able to use this myself and this is my practice material.
<font face="monospace" size="3"><pre>
Tuning : B D E F# G# B E G# D# F# Time Signature: 6/4
(6/4 just gets 6 notes in a meaure - has no significance)
G minor Pentatonic | | |
|----------------------------------------1-------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------1---------------|
|----------------1-------1A----------------------|
|--------1B--------------------------------------|
|1-----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------3D--------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------3-------|
|----------------1-------3-----------------------|
|--------1B--------------------------------------|
|1-----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------1---------------6-------6A------|
|--------1B--------------6-----------------------|
|1-----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------1-----------------------8-------|
|--------1B----------------------8B--------------|
|1-----------------------8-----------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------6-------6A------|
|------------------------6-----------------------|
|----------------6-------------------------------|
|--------6---------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|6A----------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|----------------6-----------------------13------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------6-----------------------13--------------|
|6A----------------------13A---------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------11------|
|----------------6---------------11--------------|
|--------6---------------11E---------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|6A----------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------8-----------------------|
|--------8D--------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------8B------10B-----|
|----------------8-------------------------------|
|8-----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|----------------------------------------13------|
|--------8D--------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------8---------------13--------------|
|8-----------------------13A---------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|----------------6---------------11--------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------11------|
|--------6---------------11E---------------------|
|6A----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------8D----------------------15D-------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------8-----------------------15------|
|8-----------------------15----------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|----------------6-----------------------13------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------6-----------------------13--------------|
|6A----------------------13A---------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|--------------------------------11--------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------11------|
|------------------------11E---------------------|
|----------------13------------------------------|
|--------13B-------------------------------------|
|13----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------8-------|
|--------------------------------8B--------------|
|------------------------8-----------------------|
|----------------8-------------------------------|
|--------8---------------------------------------|
|8-----------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|--------------------------------11--------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|----------------------------------------11------|
|------------------------11E---------------------|
|--------11------11A-----------------------------|
|11----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
| | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|--------------------------------6-------6A------|
|----------------4-------6-----------------------|
|--------4---------------------------------------|
|4E----------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
|------------------------------------------------|
Created with TablEdit http://www.tabledit.com/
</pre></font>
------------------
Dayton Osland
Shobud S10<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dayton Osland on 05 October 2002 at 09:24 AM.]</p></FONT>
-
Gerald Menke
- Posts: 850
- Joined: 24 Jul 2001 12:01 am
- Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
Hello all,
Thanks for all of your responses. There is a critical detail I neglected to mention: this business of avoiding the 4th applies only when improvising in the major. In the minor apparently one can stay on the 4th till the proverbial cows come home. Makes sense, since the tritone "problem" isn't such a big deal in the minor, unless it's harmonic minor, I guess (sharp 7 going up) Thanks for the tab and all the great information. Long live the Forum.
Thanks for all of your responses. There is a critical detail I neglected to mention: this business of avoiding the 4th applies only when improvising in the major. In the minor apparently one can stay on the 4th till the proverbial cows come home. Makes sense, since the tritone "problem" isn't such a big deal in the minor, unless it's harmonic minor, I guess (sharp 7 going up) Thanks for the tab and all the great information. Long live the Forum.
-
Jim Phelps
- Posts: 3421
- Joined: 6 Sep 2002 12:01 am
- Location: Mexico City, Mexico
- Contact:
-
Jeff A. Smith
- Posts: 807
- Joined: 14 Feb 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Angola,Ind. U.S.A.
As you may know, the most common usage for harmonic minor is to accompany a dominant seventh chord based on the harmonic minor's fifth degree. My understanding is that the scale was probably created because the V7 is so much more effective then the naturally occuring V minor 7th chord in a natural minor key progression. Since the tritone dissonance then would occur in the context of the V7 chord, where it would be especially welcome before resolution, there would be no problem.<SMALL>Makes sense, since the tritone "problem" isn't such a big deal in the minor, unless it's harmonic minor, I guess (sharp 7 going up) </SMALL>
Also, as a technical aside, I wonder if you were thinking of the "melodic" minor as a scale that uses the natural seventh only going up (at least in the classical tradition)-- Harmonic minor has the natural seventh in both directions.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff A. Smith on 07 October 2002 at 04:37 PM.]</p></FONT>
-
Gerald Menke
- Posts: 850
- Joined: 24 Jul 2001 12:01 am
- Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
-
Jeff Lampert
- Posts: 2696
- Joined: 8 May 2000 12:01 am
- Location: queens, new york city
I'll jump in here. The major scale plays over the ii-V-I cadence (eg. C major scale plays over Dm7-G7-Cmaj7). The harmonic minor plays over the ii-V-i cadence (eg. Dm7b5-G7-Cm7). The harmonic minor exists because, just like Jeff S. said, the natural minor would call for a progression such as Dm7-Gm7-Cm7 with the Ab note of the scale a potential problem. While found in pop/rock, most traditional jazz tunes do not use such a progression, since putting a Dm7b5-G7 in a tune is far more emotional and imparts a stronger resolution to the Cm7. Also, it's quite common to use a G7b9 for the V chord, (instead of G7), to further improve the resolution, since the additional Ab note is in the scale. Now technically, the proper resolution is to a Cm(maj7), but Cm7 will work fine even with some dissonance between the Bb note of the Cm7, and the B note of the harmonic minor scale. This is a small problem when compared to the power of the progression and how clean the scale plays over it.<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Jeff Lampert on 07 October 2002 at 06:02 PM.]</p></FONT>
Just to throw a wrench into the works. Todays players,(meaning everyone influenced by Coltranes outside the box approach), players like Corea, Brecker, Hancock, and Jarrett commonly use major thirds against minor triads and minor thirds against major triads and also the fourth degree in question here over major chords to create harmonic tension when soloing. The fourth degree in question is a strong voice leading tone which is why one school of thought by some excellent Jazz musicians is to just avoid them, others use those tones brilliantly like the names above. However for the sake of learning you should be aware that the fourth note is not wrong. It is simply a leading tone that needs to be resolved somehow to sound correct. How a note is used determines whether it sounds right or not. When it comes to improvising Jazz lines its a matter of taste, not anything else.
It is also good practice to avoid using any number of notes within any scale. This practice enables the player to move more freely through the scales without relying so much on scale patterns as a delivery system for the notes within the scale. One of my favorite major scales is these four notes taken from the major scale 1, 2, 5, and 6. Also 4, 5, 7, and 9 are nice. Each gives the sound of the chord but both sound like they are leaning towards another tonal center. Voice leading is the term I use for a phrase of notes like these when they sound like they are leaning towards another chord.
In the same way we find the dominant seventh beautiful when it resolves, the fourth degree can bring about the same beauty within a harmonic phrase. The names above are all masters of voice leading when improvising. To me Jazz lines should have some tension and resolve.
Paul
It is also good practice to avoid using any number of notes within any scale. This practice enables the player to move more freely through the scales without relying so much on scale patterns as a delivery system for the notes within the scale. One of my favorite major scales is these four notes taken from the major scale 1, 2, 5, and 6. Also 4, 5, 7, and 9 are nice. Each gives the sound of the chord but both sound like they are leaning towards another tonal center. Voice leading is the term I use for a phrase of notes like these when they sound like they are leaning towards another chord.
In the same way we find the dominant seventh beautiful when it resolves, the fourth degree can bring about the same beauty within a harmonic phrase. The names above are all masters of voice leading when improvising. To me Jazz lines should have some tension and resolve.
Paul
-
Gerald Menke
- Posts: 850
- Joined: 24 Jul 2001 12:01 am
- Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA
-
Louie Hallford
- Posts: 994
- Joined: 28 Jan 1999 1:01 am
- Location: denison tx
Now Jeff Newman will put that in a course and start charging for it.
This kind of stuff is what the Forum should be all about.
By the way, don't anyone take my Jeff Newman comment wrong. He has done as much for the steel guitar (IMHO) and more for me as a student than anyone in the business. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by louie hallford on 08 October 2002 at 09:34 AM.]</p></FONT>
This kind of stuff is what the Forum should be all about.
By the way, don't anyone take my Jeff Newman comment wrong. He has done as much for the steel guitar (IMHO) and more for me as a student than anyone in the business. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by louie hallford on 08 October 2002 at 09:34 AM.]</p></FONT>
-
Jeff Lampert
- Posts: 2696
- Joined: 8 May 2000 12:01 am
- Location: queens, new york city
-
Jeff Lampert
- Posts: 2696
- Joined: 8 May 2000 12:01 am
- Location: queens, new york city
The point of this thread initially was a statement related to the avoidance of the 4 note. Even my initial post stated the rule in general terms and that in fact, the taste of the player as usual would dictate the liberties that he would take in using it. With that said, pointing to players that do things to flout conventional thinking does not delegitimize the theoretical concepts. Theory does not say what should or should not be done. It states that given certain melody, bass, and harmony combinations, one can expect certain types of tensions and resolutions that will result. Using the 4 will create unpleasant dissonance, which results in tension. Unlike the tension of a tri-tone, for example, which would seek out a resolution that moves it to a stable chord, the tension of a 4 goes nowhere, and would simply seek to be resolved to the 3 note or perhaps the 5. The first resolution tends to be much more satisfying that the second. Now, given that theory has explained these cadences, it's up to a player to decide what to do with it. The point is, famous players that decide to take the more unusual route doesn't disprove this theory. But if one were to list all the accomplisged jazz musicians in the world, and describe the more likely tension/resolution choices taken, many more would, over the course of all their playing, create tensions with a tri-tone and resolve them, than with a 4 note.<SMALL>Todays players,(meaning everyone influenced by Coltranes outside the box approach), players like Corea, Brecker, Hancock, and Jarrett commonly use major thirds against minor triads and minor thirds against major triads and also the fourth degree in question here over major chords to create harmonic tension when soloing.</SMALL>
I guess another way of saying it is that, unless you liken yourself to an jazz icon, doesn't it makes more sense to follow conventional thinking and get competent that way before trying to "play out of the box". If you can't handle more conventional tensions and resolutions, does it make sense to be exploring things that are contrary to conventional thinking? It's a rhetorical question which only the player can answer for himself.
Paul, thanks for your post.
-
Mark Decker
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 18 Sep 2002 12:01 am
- Location: Houston, Texas, USA
Chick, Michael, Herbie, and Keith - they don't be flouting - they be "burnin'!"
Always appreciate your posts, Jeff.
Mark D<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Mark Decker on 08 October 2002 at 04:38 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Mark Decker on 08 October 2002 at 05:01 PM.]</p></FONT>
Always appreciate your posts, Jeff.
Mark D<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Mark Decker on 08 October 2002 at 04:38 PM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Mark Decker on 08 October 2002 at 05:01 PM.]</p></FONT>
-
Sam Minnitti
- Posts: 192
- Joined: 11 Mar 2002 1:01 am
- Location: New Rochelle, NY
Well stated Jeff.
All of those players mentioned were exceptionally great "inside" players first, which lead to their further explorations, improvisations and development of this “new” harmony.
Starting off the other way around is a big mistake that a lot of new players make. When one chooses to skip learning fundamental jazz harmony and dives right into the displaced triads/pentatonic stuff, it is really obvious in their so called “outside” playing, it usually lacks the tension and release that is needed in good Jazz improvisation.
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Sam Minnitti on 08 October 2002 at 06:34 PM.]</p></FONT>
Jeff,
Its just music. No need to get upset. I just happen to love and lean towards Jazz musicians who have stretched their music beyond the established rules of harmony. That's all. I was just sharing some of my opinions.
Paul
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Franklin on 08 October 2002 at 06:59 PM.]</p></FONT>
Its just music. No need to get upset. I just happen to love and lean towards Jazz musicians who have stretched their music beyond the established rules of harmony. That's all. I was just sharing some of my opinions.
Paul
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Franklin on 08 October 2002 at 06:59 PM.]</p></FONT>
-
Mark Decker
- Posts: 15
- Joined: 18 Sep 2002 12:01 am
- Location: Houston, Texas, USA
-
Bob Hoffnar
- Posts: 9244
- Joined: 4 Aug 1998 11:00 pm
- Location: Austin, Tx
- Contact:
Jeff,
I think it is a great idea to study and learn traditonal forms. I spent years working on classical counterpoint and I read jazz theory books along with any other musical theory books I can get my hands on. I also take private jazz lessons as often as I can afford it.
The problem I have with your concepts is that it seems like you think that there is such a thing as a right note or a wrong note.
For example the 4th degree has a very obvious sense of movement to my ear. If it is relating to a diatonic tonal center it sounds like it wants to move down a half step for the sus chord to a root chord. Another sound that it opens the door to is the neopolitan 6 chord wich is basicly the same harmonic function as thinking in flat 5 jazz reharmonization. In that function the 4th degree feels like it wants to resolve up by a half step within an overall harmonic movement that is moving down. An example would be Beethoven's 3rd symphony or just about all jazz tunes where the bass player plays dedending half steps to move through a ii V I. The 4th degree in that case is nice in that it gives you an option for a chromatic asending motion to play within an overall decending harmonic movement.
At some jazz music schools when a player is doing his jury exams (a live improvisation in front of his teachers ) he is forbidden to use diminished scales because they are so easy. That doesn't mean that the student should never use a diminished scale in his playing. Its just an academic excersise to make sure the student knows his axe. Its the same with the 4th degree thing. Its good to understand one of the concepts behind its function during a certain period of jazz common practice but when it comes time to actually play music all bets are off.
Believe me, the guys out there that I play with or go see playing jazz in the clubs in NYC (trad, bop, avant or whatever)never worry about that stuff once the music starts.
Bob
I think it is a great idea to study and learn traditonal forms. I spent years working on classical counterpoint and I read jazz theory books along with any other musical theory books I can get my hands on. I also take private jazz lessons as often as I can afford it.
The problem I have with your concepts is that it seems like you think that there is such a thing as a right note or a wrong note.
For example the 4th degree has a very obvious sense of movement to my ear. If it is relating to a diatonic tonal center it sounds like it wants to move down a half step for the sus chord to a root chord. Another sound that it opens the door to is the neopolitan 6 chord wich is basicly the same harmonic function as thinking in flat 5 jazz reharmonization. In that function the 4th degree feels like it wants to resolve up by a half step within an overall harmonic movement that is moving down. An example would be Beethoven's 3rd symphony or just about all jazz tunes where the bass player plays dedending half steps to move through a ii V I. The 4th degree in that case is nice in that it gives you an option for a chromatic asending motion to play within an overall decending harmonic movement.
At some jazz music schools when a player is doing his jury exams (a live improvisation in front of his teachers ) he is forbidden to use diminished scales because they are so easy. That doesn't mean that the student should never use a diminished scale in his playing. Its just an academic excersise to make sure the student knows his axe. Its the same with the 4th degree thing. Its good to understand one of the concepts behind its function during a certain period of jazz common practice but when it comes time to actually play music all bets are off.
Believe me, the guys out there that I play with or go see playing jazz in the clubs in NYC (trad, bop, avant or whatever)never worry about that stuff once the music starts.
Bob