Avoiding the 4th degree while improvising...

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 2 Oct 2002 9:07 am

Hey all,
My roommate is a heavy-duty jazz/classical guy with a deep background in theory; he's an intense guitar player as well, anyway he mentioned last night that many jazz musicians avoid the 4th degree of the scale when improvising, or if they play it at all, use it VERY sparingly and play only SHORT note values. He suggested some cool exercises, playing only degrees 1,2,3 5,6, and then 2,3,5,6,1 and so on. (major pentatonic) He also mentioned that jazz bassists almost never play the 4th when walking. I found this to be pretty fascinating, as coming from the pop/rock world as I do, I'd always thought of any note within the mode as being fair game. (#4 and b7 too, I guess.) Any of you all ever tried this or use it when improvising?
Best to all,

Gerald
Williams D-10
Evans SE200

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 2 Oct 2002 10:23 am

I don't have any statistics in terms of how often the 4th degree is used versus not used. It's common jazz theory is state that, when playing the major scale over a major7 chord, it might be preferable to play the #4 rather than the 4 note when going to the 5 note because, for various reasons, the #4 note sounds less dissonant than the 4. It's not a hard and fast rule, and I'm sure your own personal taste has a lot to do with which note you would choose. If you do choose to play the #4 rather than the 4 note, and still take advantage of the C major scale, the best way, IMO, is to play the G scale, which is a C scale with the F note replaced by an F#. Probably mixing the two scales together over the chords from a C major scale is one way to develop an interesting sound. If anyone has more insight into this, I'd be interested in hearing it as well.

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 2 Oct 2002 12:09 pm

Aha Jeff, I was hoping/had the feeling you'd have something to add. Very interesting cool idea, will try it while practicing it tonight. Thanks!! This sort of thing is why we have the forum in the first place, no?

GM

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 2 Oct 2002 12:38 pm

Can we hear from the other 3 boroughs?

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 2 Oct 2002 1:29 pm

I'm in my office in Manhattan right now, does that count Jim? Do you think about this sorta stuff when you are soloing?

GM

Kenneth Kotsay · Post by **Kenneth Kotsay** » 2 Oct 2002 4:00 pm

Hey Jim I'm from Queens, Jeff's tuff, does that count, although I now make my home in the sunny Ft Lauderdale, Florida (Broward county) area.

What about 4ths?? just today in Miami Federal court where I work, I heard this guy take the 5th for a minor offense, in theory his attorney thought his client was going to sing the blues but the kind judge gave the guy a 3rd off.

KEN

Mike Delaney · Post by **Mike Delaney** » 3 Oct 2002 6:31 am

Jazz theory refers to the 4th tone against a major chord, and a b7 against a maj7 chord (and vice versa, maj7 against dominant 7 chord) as "avoid notes". I don't care for this term, and prefer to think of them as "no parking zones". Any note in the chromatic scale will work if its used as a passing tone.

For example, trumpet great Clifford Brown frequently used a Bmaj7 arpeggio over a G7 chord, which contains F# rather than F natural. Example-(eighth notes)

D-7 G7 Cmaj7
C,B,A,G,F,E,D,C B,D#,F#,A#,C#,B,A#,G# G

Doesn't look right to the eyes, but sounds OK to the ears. The trick is in the resolution.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 3 Oct 2002 7:43 am

Okay guys..you're going to have to help me here. What's the difference between ...

the 4 note
the 4th note
and the 4th degree

?

I see all three mentioned here, and the comments allude that they're all different.

HELP!!!

[This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 03 October 2002 at 08:44 AM.]

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 3 Oct 2002 7:58 am

Donny,

Those are all the same. Bear in mind that when someone refers to the "#4 note" they are talking about the sharp 4 note (half-step above the 4 note), so # here means "sharp" not "number".

Hope this helps,

-GV

Mark Decker · Post by **Mark Decker** » 3 Oct 2002 8:15 am

Donny,

In the respones above, those three terms refer to the same thing, that is, the fourth note of the scale. For example, in the key of C, that is F. In the key of C, the #4, is F# (F sharp).

A "passing tone" is a chromatic, or non-diatonic tone that moves to, or "resolves" to a diatonic tone. In other words, a tone that is not part of the scale or chord (F#)that resolves to a tone that is part of the scale or chord (for example the G, also called the 5, or "fifth" of the scale/chord). Again, the key of C is used in this example.

Hope this helps.

Mark Decker · Post by **Mark Decker** » 3 Oct 2002 9:07 am

Donny,

Keep in mind that Jeff is talking about playing the "four" over a major 7 chord, which in the key of C would be an F and B at the same time. This interval is called a "tritone" (three whole steps) and indeed, there is dissonance there. But players can use this dissonance to to provide a kind of "arrival" when the dissonance is finally resolved.

Also, there are some modes and types of music, in which the "fourth" is commonly used. For example, a type of "down and dirty" blues, where one sometimes hears a phrase like G, F#, F, Eb, C. Again, this example is using the key of C.

It all depends on the type of music, and what the player is doing when he uses the fourth.

Hope this helps.

Russ Rickmann · Post by **Russ Rickmann** » 3 Oct 2002 9:40 am

Another way to look at this is as a great jazz guitarist I've had the pleasure of working with put it, and I quote, "To me it's a lot more then just numbers or scale degrees...it's more like syllables and each combination of these syllables have a unique sound - similar to our language..if you want to improvise you need to say something...our tonal system allows a wide variety of choices and the words can be comprised of an infinite number of tonal combinations....why get hung up on how a word is spelled...better to compose your ideas so your words flow and shape the feelings or ideas you are trying to communicate". I think that pretty much says it all. Thanks Ted, Russ

Bill Crook · Post by **Bill Crook** » 3 Oct 2002 10:25 am

Heck, Guys.....

If it sounds good... Play it !!
Don't worry about what kind of Ph.D name it has,or if it's proper to play a Q7th in front of a #B19th.

(Bet not too many of you can play by ear either?)

My kid is like that. She can play anything as long as she has the sheet music in front of her. But to ask her to improv or play along with me on a number or two by ear, forget it !!

Don't get me wrong here fella's, I'm not downing you'all. I do have a bit of formal training and can read sheet music,do use the "Nashville Numbering System" when I have to.

It's just that I enjoy the playing and don't see the need to nitpik the theory.

Good thread tho,guys. Just a bit long-haired.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 3 Oct 2002 10:53 am

Mark Decker, I appreciate your knowledge of theory and your good explanations but you said "Keep in mind that Jeff is talking about playing the "four" over a major 7 chord" but I don't see anywhere in his original post where he mentioned a major 7 chord. He just says "avoid the 4th". It would certainly sound more dissonant over a M7 chord. My own uneducated opinion is that theory is very valuable to know, has helped a lot of people become good and even great musicians but...I think the best music comes from the heart, not the head... I remember Al DiMeola was criticized in his early days as sounding too much like a catalog of jazz-theory excercises, he's since overcome that for sure and knows how to play from the heart and still apply his knowledge......Wes Montgomery knew nothing about theory and did "quite well" (!).....Curly Chalker said he knew exactly everything he did, theory-wise, but he obviously knew how to play from the heart. The great guitar-legend Eddie Van Halen (

) said about theory, "they're just notes, you can mix them up any way you chose". OK, ol' Eddie's not exactly Joe Pass and I'm not a big fan of EVH but on this I agree with him.

Dave Birkett · Post by **Dave Birkett** » 3 Oct 2002 10:54 am

Yea, but can you play a D natural in the fifth bar of a Bb blues and make it sound good? Miles claimed to have heard Prez do it once.

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 3 Oct 2002 10:58 am

Probably not, but why would anyone need to?

Gerald Menke · Post by **Gerald Menke** » 3 Oct 2002 10:59 am

Thanks to all for your responses, for what it's worth, I can play by ear with the best of them, I'm just one of those annoying people who is interested in learning about lots of different ways of approaching music, ways of keeping it fresh, and avoiding ruts and so forth. I do my best to turn the theory brain off when I play with others, and totally agree with you Bill, if it sounds good just play it, no point in pulling the wings off the butterfly, to paraphrase Debussy, (I think.) But we should be open to different approaches, no? Funny thing is, my roommate's Dad, refers to classical and jazz music as longhair music...so maybe you have a point.

Mark Decker · Post by **Mark Decker** » 3 Oct 2002 11:22 am

Hey Jim,

With all respect, I think you might have misunderstood what I was saying. I was trying to lend a hand to Gerald, and if you read my posts, you may see that I was agreeing with Jeff Lampert, AND Mike Delaney, AND Russ Rickmann.

The explanation for Gerald was using the very same terms he was asking about, and its purpose was to make it easier for him to sit down with an instrument and try it out.

I didn't say one should use or avoid anything. I said "...there are some modes and types of music, in which the 'fourth' is commonly used....It all depends on the type of music, and what the player is doing when he uses the fourth. Hope this helps."

In other words, Jim, there ain't no hard and fast rules.

[This message was edited by Mark Decker on 03 October 2002 at 04:53 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 3 Oct 2002 11:33 am

Mark, the ONLY part of my post which was directed to you was the part I said the original post didn't say anything about playing a 4 specifically over the M7 chord, this was only because in your post you said "Keep in mind that Jeff is talking about playing the "four" over a major 7 chord". Gerald DIDN'T mention a major 7 chord. I was merely pointing that out. After that, I was just giving my opinion and reply to Geralds' question and it had nothing to do with YOU. Lighten up YOURSELF. How in the world do you think I wrote the whole post just to you? Geez! From now on, I'll begin all my posts with, "This is just my opinion and not directed to or about any actual person, living or dead".

[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 03 October 2002 at 12:48 PM.]

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 3 Oct 2002 11:46 am

I've been classed as one of the theory-heads on the forum, so;
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>
Bet not too many of you can play by ear either?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your bet has been accepted. What's the wager, anyway Bill ? Not that it matters, it wouldn't worry me.

I'm so tired of the insinuation that anyone that tries to expand their knowledge of theory can't play, or is wasting their time. It's wrong.
I'll even let you pick the proving ground, Bill. What shall it be, submitted sound files ? Opinions of other people on the forum I've either played with or have heard me...?
I'll be glad to get this settled once and for all.

-John
p.s. Sorry for interjecting on your interesting thread, gentlemen. [This message was edited by John Steele on 03 October 2002 at 12:48 PM.]

Jim Phelps · Post by **Jim Phelps** » 3 Oct 2002 11:55 am

Hi John, I know your post wasn't directed at me but just to be sure you and everyone understand where I'm coming from, although yes I do say "play from the heart and not your head", I IN NO WAY mean to infer that people who are interested in understanding music theory can't play from their hearts, or by ear or whatever. As I mentioned, Chalker said he knew exactly everything he did, theory-wise, he told me that himself and as far as I'm concerned they don't get any better than Chalker. Same for greats like Joe Pass and many great musicians know theory inside and out and can play by ear and truly from their hearts. Knowing theory doesn't mean you play like an exercise book, but I've heard many students who do, and do think about theoretical stuff while playing. All I'm saying is THAT'S a mistake. Learn as much theory as you can, then play from your heart. That's my belief and opinion "and I'm stickin' to it".[This message was edited by Jim Phelps on 03 October 2002 at 12:57 PM.]

Danny Bates · Post by **Danny Bates** » 3 Oct 2002 12:14 pm

Quote:
My roommate is a heavy-duty jazz/classical guy with a deep background in theory; he's an intense guitar player as well

Listen to this guy! Pick his brain as much as you can. This is an opportunity that not many people get. A great jazz player as a roomate? Learn as much as possible from him.

Musically, I live in the world of pentatonic scales. I just "expand" from them. Every note you play in those scales will fit the chord. It's the best way to avoid "clunkers"

JUst find a way to play them "tastefully"

For a minor chord just play 1, b3, 4, 5, b7

Example C,D,E,G,A,C = C major pentatonic scale...(sounds like the intro to "My Girl" doesn't it?)

Play the same notes starting on a lower A note and you have A,C,D,E,G,A = A minor pentatonic. They translate into 1, b3, 4, 5, b7

All you have to do is change 3 frets on a guitar and you're there... It's the same notes for C major as the A minor (relative minor)

Want to add some passing notes to it?

Try adding the 2, b5 (#4) and 7 as passing notes to that minor. You will be getting pretty "bluesy" at this point.

Hope this helps. Thanks for your post. If you pick his brain some more, please post what he says.

Carter York · Post by **Carter York** » 3 Oct 2002 12:36 pm

I like to think of it in terms of "guide tones" (triad + 'whatever'), and know that in
general, to my ear, a full step above each guide tone will sound more pleasing to the ear. So, from the original few posts, the #4 (F#) would "work better" (sound better) in C than the 4 (F).

C -> D
E -> F#
G -> A
etc...

Even though I love theory, and don't have long hair (I still don't get that), I still recall a quote I read from Dick Dale once:

" I don't know what a E9th chord is, and my fans sure as hell don't!"...

Carter

Wayne Cox · Post by **Wayne Cox** » 3 Oct 2002 12:37 pm

Very recently,near the end of a lengthy phone conversation with a friend,I said,"Boy I'm glad you finally got through." This offended him because he thought I was implying that he talked too much.What I really meant was that I was glad he was finally able to reach me via the phone. Now,what does this story have to do with this thread? It means a perfectly good conversation turned into a mess because of some simple misunderstanding. Good Luck,you guys!
W.C.

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 3 Oct 2002 12:38 pm

Jim,
I think you're right.

Fwiw, I agree with the roomates views... I like the "no-parking zone" way of putting it! If the fourth degree is used, it's duration matters, and where in the phrase it lands matters alot. Sometimes it's hard to think modally and still avoid landing on it during an inopportune moment. (for me anyway)-
-John [This message was edited by John Steele on 03 October 2002 at 01:47 PM.]