What do you do with band members who do not want to work. All they want is time off. Its not like I book my band 50 weeks of the year. Its just weekend jobs and I still get the BS. This is a small town and when I start telling club managers no, they rarley call back. Then when the BS starts about not playing I just look at them and say, I wonder why!!!!!!!!
BAND LEADER SUCKS
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D 10 Thomas with 8&6, '61'D-10 Sho-Bud 8&4
S12 Knight 4&4
Nashville 400 and Profex II
81' Fender Twin JBL's
Asleep at the Steel
What to do with band members?
Moderator: Shoshanah Marohn
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John Knight
- Posts: 310
- Joined: 25 Jan 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Alaska
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chas smith
- Posts: 5043
- Joined: 28 Feb 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Encino, CA, USA
Can you spell REPLACE THEM??????
That is the reason I gave it up as a regular weekender,exept my problem was,every so aften someone would get the bighead and think they were worth more money than everyone else and quit,then the replacement would get to where he could half way do what he was hired to do and get the idea he was the star and here we go again....Sometimes it just ain't worth it!!!
Bill Ford
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That is the reason I gave it up as a regular weekender,exept my problem was,every so aften someone would get the bighead and think they were worth more money than everyone else and quit,then the replacement would get to where he could half way do what he was hired to do and get the idea he was the star and here we go again....Sometimes it just ain't worth it!!!
Bill Ford
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What it might be, and what I find it "usually" is around here is that
#1. It's hard to be able to get
"commitment" from a *band*, when. for th most part, they are being asked to rearange their worlds for 15 bucks an hour, 5 hours a day, for two three, or even five nights a week.
Let's say, I remember around here when I was a kid, Industry Guys like Ray Montee, to name one, Danny Shields, Neil Rodgerson, and Chuck Wright, to name a few others, were making the same wage a guy in a sawmill, or foundry would make, day for day, and night for night.
These guys, after 10 years could call themselves "Journeyman" grade. Their wages reflected it.
Myself, Tho I hesitate to call myself a "journeyman", after playing for 20 years, most of it 5 nites a week, and with NOBODY wanting their money back,( that I heard of) am looking at getting half the wages I got in the 80s. It's gone from 120$/nite 5 nites a week, to 60$ a nite with 1099s.
I've seen it before here, where the best players I've run into, were stubbornly demanding that "Their Craft" paid their bills. Most lost everything they had.
I started driving Dump Trucks 12 years ago, besides playing 5-7 nites a week, and time off for road gigs. I got 10$ an hour. Less then my pickin.
It ends up that I've gotten up to 28$/hr hauling heavy equipment, driving Transfer Dumps, End Dump Semis, and running cats, pavers etc. This while playing at LEAST every weekend, and one or two 5 niters a month. Weekends pay 120-150$. Weeks pay 250-375$. I pay more than that in taxes on my "day job", and don't have to come up[ with Lies to the IRS that can get me 20 years in the slammer...
It's just my opinion, but for 50-75 bucks a nite, you aen't going to get guys that are "real serious" about it. If you do, many of them just "aren't that good" *and/or* like myself, come to work with reflective vests still on, tired as hell, hurting and dirty, though they might still be able to play "Raisin The Dickens", or "At E's", presuming the bass player can follow him.... Ususlly facing 3 hours of sleep before they hit the time clock agin'.
I hate to say I'm not, but I'll bet I'm the guy that's played the most around here, quantity wise, in the last 20 years, and I make every gig that the bands I play with book, no matter what the wage, and within reasonable distance. This WHILE doing a full time day job. Larry Behm has always had his day gig too and made a lot of years of both as well. Danny, Ray, and others did the same thing, even "Back when The World was New and All"
Consider the wages you are offering.
Consider that it it VERY RARE to find "old guys" that have enough "dedication to 'the music'" to play every weekend that's offered.
Oh, there are a few.
Rambling, I'd have to run a story by you..
The BEST drummer in Portland, Dave Dixon, told me that Colin Ray, and Craig offered him a full time job playing drums. I asked how much he made a week in his Landscaping Endeavors. Like myself, it was about a grand a week. I asked if Colin offered him 4 grand a month.....
It's always a balancing act.
Playing for money, even if momentarily, has to be able to be viewed as any other money making Trade. Ususlly it isn't, but it can give valuable perspective to potential "Managerial Types".
Also, Threatening Bodily Harm is an effective short term management technique, but ONLY in the Short Term. Blackmail works somewhat longer, but has it's drawbacks as well.
Ever read Machiavelli?
Riht now, I'm going over work tapes for a one day gig in July, going to three rehearsals, playing "Get into Reggae Cowboy", a "special" arrangement of "Margaritaville", a dozen others I never liked the first time I heard them, and pretending to be happy about it... All for 120$ minus taxes at the end of the year. I'll tell you it's for the money, and it probably is. I don't know why the rest of the band is doing it. One of the guy's girlfriends is pregnant. One guy is enjoying "learning Country Western". One guy probably just wants to get out of the house and get drunk in a fun place....
This weekend, we're driving to play a one niter for the door money with a 60$/per minimum. Last time it was $65. Time before it was 120$. Then 5 nites for 375$/per.
Besides that,I'll work 45-55 hrs hauling asphalt pavers and mix.
My spare time?
Bike.
Where are these gigs?
Free Beer on Breaks?
#1. It's hard to be able to get
"commitment" from a *band*, when. for th most part, they are being asked to rearange their worlds for 15 bucks an hour, 5 hours a day, for two three, or even five nights a week.
Let's say, I remember around here when I was a kid, Industry Guys like Ray Montee, to name one, Danny Shields, Neil Rodgerson, and Chuck Wright, to name a few others, were making the same wage a guy in a sawmill, or foundry would make, day for day, and night for night.
These guys, after 10 years could call themselves "Journeyman" grade. Their wages reflected it.
Myself, Tho I hesitate to call myself a "journeyman", after playing for 20 years, most of it 5 nites a week, and with NOBODY wanting their money back,( that I heard of) am looking at getting half the wages I got in the 80s. It's gone from 120$/nite 5 nites a week, to 60$ a nite with 1099s.
I've seen it before here, where the best players I've run into, were stubbornly demanding that "Their Craft" paid their bills. Most lost everything they had.
I started driving Dump Trucks 12 years ago, besides playing 5-7 nites a week, and time off for road gigs. I got 10$ an hour. Less then my pickin.
It ends up that I've gotten up to 28$/hr hauling heavy equipment, driving Transfer Dumps, End Dump Semis, and running cats, pavers etc. This while playing at LEAST every weekend, and one or two 5 niters a month. Weekends pay 120-150$. Weeks pay 250-375$. I pay more than that in taxes on my "day job", and don't have to come up[ with Lies to the IRS that can get me 20 years in the slammer...
It's just my opinion, but for 50-75 bucks a nite, you aen't going to get guys that are "real serious" about it. If you do, many of them just "aren't that good" *and/or* like myself, come to work with reflective vests still on, tired as hell, hurting and dirty, though they might still be able to play "Raisin The Dickens", or "At E's", presuming the bass player can follow him.... Ususlly facing 3 hours of sleep before they hit the time clock agin'.
I hate to say I'm not, but I'll bet I'm the guy that's played the most around here, quantity wise, in the last 20 years, and I make every gig that the bands I play with book, no matter what the wage, and within reasonable distance. This WHILE doing a full time day job. Larry Behm has always had his day gig too and made a lot of years of both as well. Danny, Ray, and others did the same thing, even "Back when The World was New and All"
Consider the wages you are offering.
Consider that it it VERY RARE to find "old guys" that have enough "dedication to 'the music'" to play every weekend that's offered.
Oh, there are a few.
Rambling, I'd have to run a story by you..
The BEST drummer in Portland, Dave Dixon, told me that Colin Ray, and Craig offered him a full time job playing drums. I asked how much he made a week in his Landscaping Endeavors. Like myself, it was about a grand a week. I asked if Colin offered him 4 grand a month.....
It's always a balancing act.
Playing for money, even if momentarily, has to be able to be viewed as any other money making Trade. Ususlly it isn't, but it can give valuable perspective to potential "Managerial Types".
Also, Threatening Bodily Harm is an effective short term management technique, but ONLY in the Short Term. Blackmail works somewhat longer, but has it's drawbacks as well.
Ever read Machiavelli?
Riht now, I'm going over work tapes for a one day gig in July, going to three rehearsals, playing "Get into Reggae Cowboy", a "special" arrangement of "Margaritaville", a dozen others I never liked the first time I heard them, and pretending to be happy about it... All for 120$ minus taxes at the end of the year. I'll tell you it's for the money, and it probably is. I don't know why the rest of the band is doing it. One of the guy's girlfriends is pregnant. One guy is enjoying "learning Country Western". One guy probably just wants to get out of the house and get drunk in a fun place....
This weekend, we're driving to play a one niter for the door money with a 60$/per minimum. Last time it was $65. Time before it was 120$. Then 5 nites for 375$/per.
Besides that,I'll work 45-55 hrs hauling asphalt pavers and mix.
My spare time?
Bike.
Where are these gigs?
Free Beer on Breaks?
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Rex Thomas
- Posts: 1202
- Joined: 17 Jan 2002 1:01 am
- Location: Thompson's Station, TN
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Jimmie Misenheimer
- Posts: 344
- Joined: 20 Nov 2000 1:01 am
- Location: Bloomington, Indiana - U. S. A.
Hey guys, remember, there are THOUSANDS of people out there that go listen to "Karaokeoe" - I can't spell it but who gives a $hittt, and listen to some jackass, and think that because they're seeing some clown standing there, They're listening to "live music"!!! That sort of "lunacy" gets pretty hard to deal with!! That's my $.02, and I've got almost a dollars worth of change left if you want to hear more... A Shriner - Jimmie Misenheimer
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44
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Ray Montee
- Posts: 9506
- Joined: 7 Jul 1999 12:01 am
- Location: Portland, Oregon (deceased)
- Contact:
Eric West........has pretty much said it like it is, at least in this part of the country. (sad to say!)
Few other craftsmen, drag around $4,000+ worth of tools from job to job in all kinds of weather....after training a lifetime to become a true professional....to receive only small change for their honest efforts.
Like Eric says...., if you can stand up in front of a small group and make a fool out of yourself and/or talk dirty and play loud, Loud, LOUD music on a record player...there is a chance to make at least a humble living in music in this region.
It's amazing how many truly talented people I've met these last years thro' the Forum.....that have resigned themselves to playing for free, for old folks homes, prisons, and Alzheimer Centers. God Bless them but I did that kind of thing as a beginning wanna-be. Now, I've pretty much limited to playing for "FREE" in showcase environments in hope of one day being discovered for my talents(?).
This is something wrong with this picture and it all seems to have its roots back at the height of EP....when young rockers flooded all of the joints in town, offering to provide 6-8 piece groups for a flat $100 for the band. This area has NEVER recovered from that mentality.
Now that I drive an 18-wheeler all night, 5 nights per week to Seattle and back, and in my spare time run an established legal investigative agency....and collect my social security....I am in a position to play five nights a week......the jobs never come my way.
Oh well..... Maybe folks just don't like me no more? Ever? Hhhhmmmmm
Few other craftsmen, drag around $4,000+ worth of tools from job to job in all kinds of weather....after training a lifetime to become a true professional....to receive only small change for their honest efforts.
Like Eric says...., if you can stand up in front of a small group and make a fool out of yourself and/or talk dirty and play loud, Loud, LOUD music on a record player...there is a chance to make at least a humble living in music in this region.
It's amazing how many truly talented people I've met these last years thro' the Forum.....that have resigned themselves to playing for free, for old folks homes, prisons, and Alzheimer Centers. God Bless them but I did that kind of thing as a beginning wanna-be. Now, I've pretty much limited to playing for "FREE" in showcase environments in hope of one day being discovered for my talents(?).
This is something wrong with this picture and it all seems to have its roots back at the height of EP....when young rockers flooded all of the joints in town, offering to provide 6-8 piece groups for a flat $100 for the band. This area has NEVER recovered from that mentality.
Now that I drive an 18-wheeler all night, 5 nights per week to Seattle and back, and in my spare time run an established legal investigative agency....and collect my social security....I am in a position to play five nights a week......the jobs never come my way.
Oh well..... Maybe folks just don't like me no more? Ever? Hhhhmmmmm
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John Knight
- Posts: 310
- Joined: 25 Jan 2001 1:01 am
- Location: Alaska
Great replys, To answer a few questions. I have a very limited resource of players to choose from. But the bigger problem is the one Ray brought up about the industry. The club owners, dance hall operators. To much liability and to many choices to make out there these days. My younger brother pointed this one out to me the other day. In the 50's - 80's no home computers for the most part, no payper view, no internet, no heavy fines for drinking. These are all generalizations about a time when people had time and money to come out ans listen to us and our craft. Until it comes back around and people find they miss going to a dance or out to be social things are not going to get better.
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D 10 Thomas with 8&6, '61'D-10 Sho-Bud 8&4
S12 Knight 4&4
Nashville 400 and Profex II
81' Fender Twin JBL's
Asleep at the Steel
------------------
D 10 Thomas with 8&6, '61'D-10 Sho-Bud 8&4
S12 Knight 4&4
Nashville 400 and Profex II
81' Fender Twin JBL's
Asleep at the Steel
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Stephen Gambrell
- Posts: 6870
- Joined: 20 Apr 2002 12:01 am
- Location: Over there
</CENTER>This thread reminds me of a gig our band did a few years back. Was a Friday or Saturday night (don't recall), but anyway, it was so darned cold NOBODY was out that night. We had a pretty good group, four guys and a gal, and occasionally made some good (well, good for us, anyway) money. Anyway, that night there were TWO people who made it into the joint, other than the employees. The $2 per head cover meant the five of us wound up with 80 cents each for a 4-hour gig, not counting spending $ on gas, moving equipment, etc. etc. Wonderful stuff, huh?
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Roger Edgington
- Posts: 2104
- Joined: 29 Mar 2000 1:01 am
- Location: San Antonio, Texas USA
- Contact:
I have to be one of the luckiest guys around.I work with a 6 sometimes 7 piece weekend band. All but one of us has been in the band 7 years or more. most of us are around 50 and have daytime jobs but can get off for a special job if needed.It's rare for somebody to want off. I usually take off for the Dallas and St.Louis show.Most of our songs are arranged,we have stage clothes,lights and all. So, it's become a band I am proud of and enjoy working with.
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Roger Edgington
- Posts: 2104
- Joined: 29 Mar 2000 1:01 am
- Location: San Antonio, Texas USA
- Contact:
I want to give my 2cnts worth on the money end of things. Few local bands make really good money IMHO.Especially when you concider total time envolved,investment, gas and taxes. It seems to me if you want to be succesful in this business you have to put a band together that people are willing to leave the house for and pay to see. You can't make it off of beer money at the bar. You have to communicate with people and "sell" the band. Not many will pay to see a band that takes time between songs to smoke one or think of another song,or who is going to start it,or sing it off of a book.
You need good players with good equipment that can all get along, then present a professional presentation long enough to build a following. It ain't easy and doesn't usually happen over night, but it's worth it if you're serious about playing. I know there are a lot of good players out there not making what they should,but it takes more than that. You have to really get organized as a band. If you want to make more than $60 a night it seems the first thing to do is put a $100 band together.
I don't think you have to play like BE to do well(I sure don't) ,but get serious with what you're doing and have fun.
You need good players with good equipment that can all get along, then present a professional presentation long enough to build a following. It ain't easy and doesn't usually happen over night, but it's worth it if you're serious about playing. I know there are a lot of good players out there not making what they should,but it takes more than that. You have to really get organized as a band. If you want to make more than $60 a night it seems the first thing to do is put a $100 band together.
I don't think you have to play like BE to do well(I sure don't) ,but get serious with what you're doing and have fun.
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Donny Hinson
- Posts: 21192
- Joined: 16 Feb 1999 1:01 am
- Location: Glen Burnie, Md. U.S.A.
It's hard to find a group of guys with similar aspirations. This one wants to work 5 days a week, this one doesn't want to do bars, this one doesn't like new material, this one only wants to work once a month for giga-bucks, this one doesn't want to practice...the list goes on and on. In short, you gotta get along with these guys. I'm not about to tell anybody what they should be doing. Do what you want, when you want to do it. That said, things will usually go better if you try to find guys that have similar needs and goals, and work with them until you act as a unit...not just a bunch of musicians "thrown together" at the last minute. You can take the 5 best musicians in the world and make a band, but if they don't get along, it ain't gonna work very good or very long...plain and simple.
The strategy that works for me is to only play the gigs I think I'll enjoy. I'd much rather do just a dozen really nice gigs a year than I would try and do everything that comes down the pike just to say "I'm playing every week"! Playing gigs you don't like just gives you a bad attitude, and then not only you, but everyone you come into contact with suffers because of it. Music is something I enjoy, but it's not my whole life (as it once was). There are other things I enjoy, too. If I don't play out for a few months, I miss it, but I know the world's not going to come to an end.
Take it for what it is, and when it really gets on your nerves---get away from it and do something else! 'Course, if must have the extra money to get by, and work is scarce, hang in there until something else comes up that's more to your liking. Sooner or later, it usually does.
If you really enjoy what you're doing, music is the best job in the world. And if you don't, it's the worst.
my2cents
The strategy that works for me is to only play the gigs I think I'll enjoy. I'd much rather do just a dozen really nice gigs a year than I would try and do everything that comes down the pike just to say "I'm playing every week"! Playing gigs you don't like just gives you a bad attitude, and then not only you, but everyone you come into contact with suffers because of it. Music is something I enjoy, but it's not my whole life (as it once was). There are other things I enjoy, too. If I don't play out for a few months, I miss it, but I know the world's not going to come to an end.
Take it for what it is, and when it really gets on your nerves---get away from it and do something else! 'Course, if must have the extra money to get by, and work is scarce, hang in there until something else comes up that's more to your liking. Sooner or later, it usually does.
If you really enjoy what you're doing, music is the best job in the world. And if you don't, it's the worst.
my2cents