<SMALL> What other non-subjective measurements of good tone can we come up with here?</SMALL>
Bobby Lee, the best measure of non-subjective, good tone for me is an applauding response from the audience of people who don't play steel guitar. Is not that the main objective anyway?
There are a lot of Good sounds (tones) and there are a lot of bad sounds(tones). If one can't tell the difference ,what difference does it make? If you can't tell if you are getting a good sound or not, it matters not (to you). Keep your ears open but most of all , keep your MIND open, but through this all, remember, There IS a good AND a bad. THE DIFFERENCE IS OBVIOUS! You don't have to be a musician to hear this difference either.
You could even be as tone deaf as a record prodcer!!!!!
Ervin, those are great insights! I had never thought of the sound equation that way (modern amplification being more "versatile" than the older equipment), but your point is well taken. Also, it might stand to reason that the more "mass-produced" the instrument is, the less the attention that can be paid to each one as an individual creation. Assembly-line instruments give us consistency, low prices, and immediate availability, while those that are hand-crafted (on a one-at-a-time basis) offer customization, attention to detail, and a certain nuance or cachet that cannot be had on a mass-produced item. The ultimate value of each is in the eyes of the player.
In my experience, very often, recordings studios are not built to be acousticly neutral.
I don't get the hand made steel thing at all. As far as I know Emmons made some pretty good pedalsteels back in the day in what might be thought of as a factory.
Things are much better now when it comes to equipment and studios. If you want vintage there is plenty available and if your needs go beyond that there are plenty of options.
As far as tone goes I feel that the most important thing is to develope ones own voice and find whatever sound that works to comunicate that voice.
Bob<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 07 March 2002 at 09:27 AM.]</p></FONT><FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 07 March 2002 at 09:33 AM.]</p></FONT>
Erwin, thank you, Donny as you know I always respect anything you say.
I have gotten over 86 extremly positive e-mails on this post. I have tried to keep up answering you all individually, but am getting farther behind. So I would like to take more of bOb's hard drive to thank you all for the great comments you have sent to Lloyd and myself on this topic.
Thank you guys!
Intonation and tone are two different components but without really good intonation nothing else matters. Good intonation is the necessary foundation on which you can begin to develop great tone.
Jerry
Would Lloyd still be able to produce a good tone, even if he played on a crappy steel? Could his hands alone make it sing?
By the way, one more T - Taste.
I would say yes Lloyd could produce a good tone on a "crappy" steel if the steel was capable of being tuned and stayed in tune.
In fact, I would think Lloyd could produce a good tone on a one string guitar. Good tone is produced by making each individual note sound as good as it can possibly sound.
Jerry
You know he would still sound fine but don't kid yourselves, a better steel guitar will sound better and make him sound better also.
It takes more than "good hands" for tone. It takes a combination of many things, A week link in the chain can throw you back to average. Lloyd is wonderful as is Buddy,Jerry,Sonny,Tommy and so on, but this "hands" thing only goes so far. I can (but won't) name some great players that do not get good tone, and never have, but could if they would play better sounding equipment. One of these players used to play Bigsby and his sound was fantastic, he still plays incredibly well but he is also famous for having "no tone". I can actually think of several players that fit this bill.
Hands only work "up to a point". And my point is: it takes a good combination of several things to achive great tone. Just hands, no matter whose hands they are, can't do it all. I hear masters of tone that you all know play every week in my store and I hear them play severl kinds of guitars. They sound different on every guitar. Some great, some good , some suck. It takes a combination,It's nice to think that these genious players are majic and can do no wrong, however, think about it, there are a lot of really great players that arn't famous for there tone.(and visa versa)
All I know is that there were people standing around with tears in their eyes the first time Lloyd Green took his refurbed LDG out to play in public. I have heard him live many times on his JCH (which is a great guitar) and I've heard him live with the Sho-Bud. His tone was totally different with the
Sho-Bud. It was the Lloyd Green tone that I have always associated with his playing.
OUCH! LOL!
My unknown opinion of Lloyd's tone this year...He sounded MUCH better on his old ShoBud than previously on the JCH. Plus, I thought his tone was even BETTER than it was during the 70s...and on the same guitar. So maybe the pickups added a slight edge in quality. I don't see how he could top what he produced before, but he did it! So when does his next "comeback" CD hit the market?
Bobbe..did you get Kelchen turned around and heading back home? That red ShoBud should sell quick. Mint condition. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by Dennis Detweiler on 08 March 2002 at 09:17 PM.]</p></FONT>
I think Lloyd Green is like Mr. Woopee. He goes to his cabinet for some tone and a whole ruckus breaks out. <FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by erik on 08 March 2002 at 02:41 PM.]</p></FONT>
Just settin' around reading this - just got my computer back - and I thought maybe I could "cough up $.02 just like anyone else, and it would be worth just that (execpt in Pa.) When I was a kid, for awhile you saw more "Sho-Buds" than anything else. I can remember "B.E." playing playing one, Weldon playing "Charolette" (I think) as a theme on the OLD Bill Anderson show, Hal using one on the early Wilburn Bros. Show, and Buddy Charlton using one with "E.T.".
Then what seemed to be a short time later, so many people were playing an "Emmons". I was lucky enough to get around some of these "monsters" and one of my questions was always "Why the brand switch"? Everybody told me pretty much the same thing -- They liked the sound. Buddy charlton did say that he also liked the compact aspect of it. This always struck me as odd, because Hal didn't sound like Weldon, who didn't sound like Buddy, who didn't sound like the other Buddy, who - well, you get the picture.
Tone means different things to different. people. I'll tell you this though - after YEARS of working at it, I've never been as happy with anything in the world as I am with the tone that I get out of my rack. They can talk all they want to about building "good sounding guitars", good processors, (reverbs, delays, choruses, and whatever), but IN MY OPINION, until you've got a good pre-amp, capable of delivering a good "warm, dry, rich" sound to your FX, and to your power-amp, you're not going to have alot. They're are a number of "pre-amps", and "pre-amp/FX units" available that in my opinion just can't do the job E.Q. wise. If you're looking for a nice rich tone, and your pre-amp won't deliver, you ain't gonna' get there. On the other hand, if you prefer the "thin" sound that is indeed very popular today, then most anything should work. while we're at it, to the people that claim that it's ALL in the hands -- If it REALLY was, then why in the hell spend 2 to 5 grand, and break your back luggin' that gear around??? Just go get you a used "Maverick" or something -- YOU still have the same hands... 32,and a Shriner
Sorry - I just woke up! I've had, (And still have some of) most every brand of stuff like this you can get! I couldn't wait to get one brand of pre-amp that we've all heard of. I won't mention names, but this thing sounded like a Canadian Goose with a bad sinus infection. I swear, it sounded that "wet and muddy". I have a very good friend who is a terrific eletronics tech - the kind that KNOWS what something is supposed to sound like, and how it should work. I told him to "Tear this damn thing down and see if there's something wrong with it". He said "It will void the warranty". I said "P*** on the warranty - anything that sounds that bad may not have a warranty". He called me back in 2 or 3 days and said "Sorry son - it's doing exactly what it's supposed to do, and if it was mine, I'd get rid of it too!" I did! Sorry for the rambling. The two units in my rack are an "Ashley" Pre-amp, and an old "Pro-Fex 2". I THINK that the pre-amp is a model "G.P.-14". It says simply "Musical Instrument Pre-amplifier" on the front of it. No "bells 'n' whistles, just three bands of ACTIVE E.Q. I have found this combination to be better than anything else that I have ever tried. IN MY OPINION, you can get some great patches from a P.F.2 if you put the right type of signal in it in it to begin with. I will add that this rack works VERY well with my two Emmons Guitars (one formica W/metal necks, one lacquer w/ a metal neck), my Zum, my M.C.I., my Z.B., and even my old Fender 1000. I mention this last paragraph only to show how
something that seems to work well will work well with most everything. My shop number is 1 800 822 4818. Anyone call me anytime. I'll help anyone any way that I can ('course if I can't do that any better'n I can spell or type, that may not be sayin' a hell of alot!!). Before I go, I was just thinking how much honest, truthful, facts and information some of us could tell if we didn't care to mention names - brand or people. WAIT!! DON'T GO THERE!! Say goodnight boy... 32 Degrees/ A Shriner Jimmie Misenheimer
I think...opinion of course...that tone lies in the overtones and the dynamics in between them. I like to think that the pedal steel is the most dynamic and wonderful stringed instrument in terms of producing overtones. And this is controlled by the hands and all the variables contained within. The tones that I have heard that are considered good are always full of overtones that jump out at you in a way that give that sparkle, the butter. And in turn the uniquness and identity. Overtone levels are very delicate and affect the timbre of the sound. Overtones coming from diffrent notes played simultaneously....give the sound its color. It's the equilibrium between the overtones that matters. The equipment can only optimize what the hands can do......Does this make sense? Its hard to talk about this without being too wordy. What I'm saying is,overtones and conscious control over them have a lot to do with this discussion.
OK!..just listened to a few of Seizemour's tunes from his new CD. Nice touch and tone. Must be custom legs on the guitar? Your secretery has nice tone too!
Kelchen got picked up for littering in Illinois!
<FONT SIZE=1 COLOR="#8e236b"><p align=CENTER>[This message was edited by erik on 08 March 2002 at 02:41 PM.]</p></FONT>