Pedals or no pedals?

Lincoln Goertzen · Post by **Lincoln Goertzen** » 14 Dec 2001 3:37 pm

I feel a little bit dangerous bringing this up, but I have to know.

Why would someone choose to play a non-pedal or lap steel (no matter how many strings it has) instead of a pedal steel guitar? I consider a dobro to be in an entirely different catagory. I can easily see the difference between dobro and pedal steel, and why someone would choose one or the other.

It would seem to me that the pedal steel is much more versatile, with the exception of changing tunings. The sound should be quite similar, should it not?

To pedal or not to pedal, that is the question.

Lincoln
Carter D10, 8&5

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 14 Dec 2001 4:10 pm

Because it's a very different sound. Twisting the bar sounds different than pulling/releasing the strings, the construction of the guitars is different so they sound different and then there's the cachet of being able to do it.

Bob Carlson · Post by **Bob Carlson** » 14 Dec 2001 4:51 pm

One of the young kids down at the mucic store plays a lap steel because someone came in wanting to sell it and he bought it for $25.00. And it came with a book.

I wonder how many are playing one because of the price?.

BC.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 14 Dec 2001 5:16 pm

I've always been in love with the pedal steel sound. I've never been a big fan of non-pedal. 'Course I ain't heard that new Hag CD yet.

Christmas time's a comin'... Christmas time's a comin'

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HagFan

John Paul Jones · Post by **John Paul Jones** » 14 Dec 2001 9:07 pm

Different strokes for different folks.

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John Paul Jones

GFI U-12
Evans FET500 amp
ART T2 effects
HM-4 harmony machine

Darvin Willhoite · Post by **Darvin Willhoite** » 15 Dec 2001 8:50 am

Paul Franklin played lap steel on the Players album, I think it was. Maurice Anderson also has a tape out where he used a non-pedal steel. It would be nice to hear from one of these guys to get their opinions.

Erv Niehaus · Post by **Erv Niehaus** » 15 Dec 2001 9:30 am

I may be a strange bird, but I don't play the pedal steel to get the pedal steel sounds, I play it to get the "chords". I don't play "licks" and such, I play chordal melody. The only way I can get the full chords that I like to hear coming from my instrument is with the use of pedals. I have a large assortment of non-pedal steels, everything from single, double, and triple neck models. But I keep coming back to the pedals. I guess it really boils down to how far you want to go with the steel guitar. Some players can get the chords on the non-pedal guitars via slants and so on, but I know my limitations and need all the help I can get. Pedals do the trick!
Erv

Jerry Hedge · Post by **Jerry Hedge** » 15 Dec 2001 9:51 am

Listen to Kayton Roberts or Billy Robinson THEN ask yourself that question!!!

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 15 Dec 2001 11:48 am

Two words: TOM MORRELL!!!

Back in the 60's, I was heavily into blues guitar, and played a lot of open tuning Robert Johnson/ Fred McDowell style bottleneck stuff. About 2 years after I started playing the pedal steel guitar, I discovered that all that stuff worked extremely well on a lap steel, so long as I tuned the instrument to an open chord and only played in the key to which it was tuned.

The style can not be duplicted on a C6 tuning. The 6th tone gets in the way. As versatile as the C6 is, it doesn't work for the style in question.

I got a triple neck Fender stringmaster (which I still have) and put cam levers on 2 of the necks so I could get 2 tunings on each, giving me open tunings in A, C, D, E, and G. I would then take this guitar to any gigs where I had enough space to set it up, and switch off between it and my pedal steel guitar, alternating playing styles as well as instruments.

On a couple of occasions, I only took the Fender and played it all night.

In recent years, I've developed a style of playing the pedal steel guitar that incorporates a lot of the kinds of things I do on the non-pedal guitar, but it's still not the same.

As far as I'm concerned, pedal and non-pedal steel guitars are like apples and oranges, and I like fruit salad.

Jack Carpenter · Post by **Jack Carpenter** » 15 Dec 2001 6:46 pm

Or---Maybe listen to Cindy Cashdollar, Herb Remington, or even whats his name? Oh yeah, Jerry Byrd. I believe one of the most played Steel Guitar artists is a Non pedal player by the name of Johnny Farina. (Sleepwalk). Just my dimes worth no offense no foul. Jack

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 16 Dec 2001 3:02 am

Hey Mike,
about the bottleneck style on lap steel- this sounds familiar, I too come originally from blues guitar and used to do a lot of slide stuff. About ten years ago I saw an old 8-string lap steel in a local music store and bought it mostly because it looked interesting and sold cheap. At that time, I didn´t have the slightest cue about real lap steel tunings, so I just tuned it to an open E or A chord like the regular slide guitar, leaving two strings off it. I remember that "Hawaiian" sound often bothered me when playing blues, so I seldom used it.
However, nowadays on pedal steel, I like to emulate slide guitar licks now and then on rock tunes and somehow I find it easier to do on the E9th neck (partly also with A and B pedals down) than on C6. As you said, that 6th tone gets in the way.
Regards, Joe H.

Jerry Hayes · Post by **Jerry Hayes** » 16 Dec 2001 11:06 am

A few years back I bought an Eddie Raven CD which had his current hit at the time called "Island". The radio cut didn't have much steel on it but the album cut had some of the most beautiful non-pedal stuff you've ever heard with a steel break and all. And guess what! It was played by none other than Paul Franklin. So you know that a great pedal player like Paul realizes that there's a place for lapsteel as they have a sound all their own. For some unexplained reason, when I play my lap steel I seem to think of different things to play which don't come with the pedals! It's kind of like when I play my Telecaster or my Les Paul, the sound makes me think of different licks to play.
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Have a good 'un! JH U-12

[This message was edited by Jerry Hayes on 16 December 2001 at 11:08 AM.]

Pete Burak · Post by **Pete Burak** » 16 Dec 2001 11:09 am

My opinion has changed on this topic.
I spent a few hours watching our own Ray Montee blaze around on his non-pedal Ricks and quad Bigsby last week.
He used several different tunings and the stuff he played was amazing.
Then he sat down at his Emmons P-P D10 and proceeded to rip that up too.
I'm jealous of the guys who started before pedals! They can really move that bar!
Talk about a "slant-o-matic" touch!

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 17 Dec 2001 5:37 am

I play non pedal in the band I play with right now because I'm incredibly lazy.

It's a lot lighter, takes up less space and it's a lot easier to set up and break down.

(...not to mention the sound being totally different...)

Joerg Hennig · Post by **Joerg Hennig** » 17 Dec 2001 12:11 pm

One thing that hasn´t been mentioned yet but, IMO, is very important, the tunings found on lap steels as opposed to pedal steels are usually very different. If you think about it, the most common tunings on pedal steels are E9 and C6 and, if you like, E9/B6 universal (with some slight variations but those don´t really matter here.) Anything else has to be considered unusual in some way. Instead, there are dozens of tuning charts for lap steels that are very different from each other; I just think about the first ones that I saw when I started and that are those published in Scotty´s catalog (or web site). It all boils down to that they are two very different animals and can´t really substitute for each other. In other words, if you want to emulate Jerry Byrd, it just won´t sound right on a pedal steel and Emmons or Franklin licks will be very hard to execute on any kind of lap steel. Just my opinion,
Joe H.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 17 Dec 2001 3:32 pm

Like Chas said, it's a different sound and a different approach. Had pedals not come along, we'd have had a lot more players like Jerry, Joaquin, Kayton, Tommy, Noel, Don, Dick, and many others. A lot of these guys could do some marvelous things without pedals!

I guess one big advantage of the nonpedal guitars is their absence of the myriad problems that seem to plague the pedal guys, like "cabinet drop", 3rd string breakage, not enough pedals, tuning problems, "pull timing", "Emmons vs. Day", the "tone" thing...and sore backs!

...like

Ziggie · Post by **Ziggie** » 17 Dec 2001 3:51 pm

I started out also listening to Muddy Waters blues and it eventually lured me to steel guitar. I hadn't a clue what pedals were for untill I went on a trip to Nashville with my parents when I was in my early 20's. Well I met Duane Marrs at the Sho-Bud factory on Broadway and he showed me the advantage of pedals and the unique sound they made. Heck, I was looking for a small 6 string fender and I ended up with 10 strings 3 pedals and 1 knee lever! Well I leaned on that guitar. ShoBud student model. I also played bottlekneck guitar. Still do. And now I'm getting into lap style. E13 tunning and I'm here to tell ya they all have there own unigue characteristics and sounds. I love 'em all! I did decide to keep my swing stuff on the E13 tunning on lap steel and just carry a single neck pedal steel to keep the weight down plus I like really enjoy playing without pedals more when it comes to swing sounds. That's how a lot of it started and I love those older sounds. My advice would be to decide what you want to play as far as style, and then pick an instrument that fits the mold. Bottom line, they're all fun! There's only 2 kinds of music. Good and Bad. Ziggie

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 18 Dec 2001 1:06 am

I like to play with pedals and without. I don't see why a steel player has to play one or the other. Both have their place. I go out of my way to play gigs on the non-pedal guitars, though, as those gigs are harder to find.

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<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (E7, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (F Diatonic)
Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6)

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 18 Dec 2001 2:40 am

Hey Joe. If you still have that 8 string lap steel, try putting a 7th string on the bass. I find that for emulating open tuning bottleneck on a lap steel, 7 strings work better than either 6 or 8. If you're tuning to A, put on a low A string. if you're tuning to E, tune the bass string to low B.

On my Stringmaster, the first neck can be tuned to either D or G, depending on how I have the cam levers set. The second can be either A or C. The third neck is tuned to E and cannot be altered. I have the standard open E tuning on the top 6 strings, leave the 7th string position blank, and have the low B in the 8th string position. This way, it's out of the way until I want to use it.[This message was edited by Mike Perlowin on 18 December 2001 at 08:16 AM.]

Joseph Barcus · Post by **Joseph Barcus** » 18 Dec 2001 4:50 am

I dont see the big deal in both ways I have a six string fender deluxe that i use a matchbro on with that old fender sound mixed with the matchbro a wonderful tone. and listen to Jr brown man if we all could pick like that why would we need pedals. just my 2 cents joe

Andy Alford · Post by **Andy Alford** » 18 Dec 2001 6:01 am

Many pedal steel players have played are playing or will play lap steel.Many play both.Both types have their place and sound.