Things are going to change

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 11 Sep 2001 12:01 pm

This isn't about steel guitars or specifically about music and I don't really have an agenda, any answers or logical proposals. After watching the news this morning about the high-jackings and subsequent bombings of the World Trade Center and Pentagon, I'm struck by how utterly powerless and vulnerable I am and seemingly, we are, and how effective this attack is/was. They didn't go after any strategic military targets. And how come the alphabet soup of agencies, CIA, FBI, NSA ... didn't see this coming or were helpless to stop it?

Our 'invulnerability' has been breached and we are confronted by how profoundy some of the rest of the world hates us.

I am unable to adequately articulate my sorrow and grief for those people who were killed and their loved ones.

Drew Howard · Post by **Drew Howard** » 11 Sep 2001 12:05 pm

I am stunned by what has happened.

Where is President Bush? Cheney?

God help us.

Drew

Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 11 Sep 2001 12:09 pm

yes they will change. we must remain vigilant of our individual rights as they do.

I am unable to adequately articulate my sorrow and grief for those people who were killed and their loved ones.

yes.

Chris Schlotzhauer · Post by **Chris Schlotzhauer** » 11 Sep 2001 12:30 pm

Part of living in this free society leaves us vunrable to such attacks. These type of attacks will probably happen again, unfortunatly. Our resolve for our freedom is stronger than this weakness that we may well have to live with from here on out. Look how the country has already come together. And watch how we retaliate. Once again, the sleeping giant has been awakened.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 11 Sep 2001 12:31 pm

I don't usually weigh in on these but here goes:

There's a large grey area between FREE COUNTRY and POLICE STATE. We citizens of the United States have been very fortunate to have had so few disturbances of the international peace on our soil. Many of us have visited other countries where such activities are more common and see armed guards at airports or even on the street corner. Other than the occasional (usually) good natured police officer directing traffic or going about his/her business, we rarely see a weapon on the streets.

Our airlines and airports try to maintain that delicate balance between safety/security and comfort. In times of heightened emergency we often see the pendulum swing toward maintaining security at the expense of longer lines through baggage/personal inspection and irritated travelers. In the wake of other recent tragedies, e.g., OK City, Lockerbie, the first WTC attack, we have witnessed periods of tightened security.

We clearly must not let our guard down and must implement procedures that will provide early warning. THIS IS A VERY DIFFICULT THING TO DO without turning our country into a Police State. While I agree with those who propose bringing the leaders of the groups responsible for this tragedy to justice, we must not be bogged down in our agenda to first care for those injured and the families of those lost and then to implement policies and practices that restore the sanctity of our airspace and public facilities.

Just my opinion on the priorities ahead. Our lives have changed forever.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 11 September 2001 at 01:32 PM.]

Leroy Riggs · Post by **Leroy Riggs** » 11 Sep 2001 1:02 pm

Once again, the sleeping giant has been awakened.

We have needed to be woke up for a long time. I really hope this will do it but our political structure tends to more "politically tactful" rather than "militarily reactive". Don't plan on much beyond token response.

Mike Perlowin · Post by **Mike Perlowin** » 11 Sep 2001 4:25 pm

How were the hijackers able to get their weapins on the planes?

I think one of the things that need to be done is the installation of bulltproof locked doors to the cockpits on all commercial aircraft.

We need to track down whoever is responsable for this outrage, but even more important, we must take every possible step to see that it doesn't happen again.

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 11 Sep 2001 5:08 pm

Larry...You are right.

Mike...I have heard one report that someone called 911 from one of the planes. They reported the highjackers had plastic box cutters.

Dennis Detweiler · Post by **Dennis Detweiler** » 11 Sep 2001 5:45 pm

Fifty years ago an attack like this would have brought the country together and a declaration of war would have been declared. If we do anything short of finding out who structured this attack and retaliating in full force against the attacking organization and the countries that harbor them, then we have coward and must expect more of the same. This is not the time to turn the other cheek. You, your family and friends aren't safe on our own soil at this time.

Michael Johnstone · Post by **Michael Johnstone** » 11 Sep 2001 7:23 pm

When I flew TWA from L.A.to St.Louis last week,I was struck at how lax(no pun intended)the gate security was.When I got ready to put my pocket change into the basket and step thru the metal detector,I was told: "That's ok - just come on through" I'm guessing they had the sensitivity turned down so it wouldn't register normal things like pocket change,belt buckles,etc. The same thing happened when I left St.Louis.Of course,any well equipped hijacker would use knives with composite blades just like the one my wife carries concealed in the handle of her hairbrush - a gadget,BTW,that you can buy for $3 at any gunshow or novelty shop.They got composite guns w/caseless composite bullets too,BTW.
God.....Yeah - well,God helps those who help themselves and if we don't start sending result-oriented preemptive military incursions into anywhere we have to go to get these type of guys we're gonna get nuked next time - you can just about count on that.I don't know about you,but I've had enough. -MJ-

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 11 Sep 2001 8:00 pm

Just learned that one of the dead - and the first Canadian victim to be identified- on flight 175 (second of the two WTC "Kamikaze" planes) was Ace Bailey, a scout for the LA Kings hockey team. He was from Lloydminster Saskatchewan, about 3 hours east of us, and once played with my hometown Edmonton Oilers when the great one (Wayne Gretzky) was here

So this is "warfare" in the 21st century, eh? What did Leonard Cohen sing? "I've seen the future - it's murder baby"

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website
shobud.cjb.net
[This message was edited by Greg Simmons on 11 September 2001 at 09:39 PM.]

Bill Hamner · Post by **Bill Hamner** » 11 Sep 2001 9:47 pm

Dennis,
Don't forget every thing our leaders say or do in this situation MUST be "politically
correct". Otherwise they might offend someone. My apoplogies, this is not the proper time for a sarcasm but I do think
this "politically correct" syndrome we live under these days is one of our major problems.
Bill

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 11 Sep 2001 10:56 pm

There's politically correct and diplomatically correct and politcal double speak. The "politcal correctness" that has been in vogue out here with the 'west side' politically active crowd, is nothing more than liberal fundamentalism.

The leadership should be diplomatically correct so as not to inflame the situation and/or send the wrong messages to the right or wrong people. As you recall, we gave the diplomatic green light to Saddam Hussein to attack Kuwait.

The political double speak is the crap we hear from the leadership to placate us while we're getting screwed.

Don't forget that Osama bin Laden was our guy in the war between the Soviet Union and Afganistan.[This message was edited by chas smith on 12 September 2001 at 12:26 AM.]

Jody Carver · Post by **Jody Carver** » 12 Sep 2001 4:34 am

Chas.........AMEN...........

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 12 Sep 2001 6:26 am

Now is the time to put an end of this crap once and for all. Pick 5 country's over there that are KNOW to train and harbor these guys, it's ain't hard to do and LEVEL them. Doen't matter who is resoponsible, let 'em know that the Democratic FREE world will not toleorate this anymore, the free world will back us up. Arafat was visabley shaken because he KNEW what COULD be heading his way, even CUBA was appologetic. Like Peal Harbor, now is the time to strike, to hell with the colateral damage, when you see
13 year old kids dancing is the street, better to get rid of them now than have to deal with them later, they are trained from birth that it is an honor to die doing these things. I do believe that this Country is going to take a BIG swing to the Right, put a stop to this uncontrolled inmagration and close our boarders. It's about time, if we don't, this is the just the begening of things to come, like Isreal has to live with everyday. BTW, it's time we take the cuffs of Isreal and let them handle some of this stuff thier own way. We have the support of the free world right now, lets take care of this problem, which is a world problem. Just my opinion and something to think about.[This message was edited by Steven Knapper on 12 September 2001 at 07:28 AM.]

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 12 Sep 2001 6:41 am

"Don't forget that Osama bin Laden was our guy in the war between the Soviet Union and Afganistan."

Sad but true Chas, here's an interesting article.

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Greg Simmons
Custodian of the Official Sho~Bud Pedal Steel Guitar Website
shobud.cjb.net

[This message was edited by Greg Simmons on 12 September 2001 at 08:08 AM.]

Alan Michael · Post by **Alan Michael** » 12 Sep 2001 7:46 am

Bad idea Steve Knapper. Those 13 year old kids dancing in the street are just products of their environment. And let's not forget that the U.S. is responsible for supplying Israel with the modern weapons used to defend themselves from the rock throwing crowd of Palastinians. These people are blind fundamentalist much like the blind ones in our country. And the problem is a lot more complex than our leaders want us to believe. I am all for protecting freedom, but not freedom to exploit everyone and each other. Let's remember to be objective with our thought processes.

Miguel e Smith · Post by **Miguel e Smith** » 12 Sep 2001 7:58 am

I too share many of the frustrations, concerns and condolences shared under this topic. Things will have to change, yes. For the sake of our nations security, security itself will have to tighten. That usually means inconvenience for most (I'll say "me")and yet necessary.

I've done my share of bitching when I go through normal security checks at an airport and they sometimes shake down my carry-on rack. Sometimes security won't check it and then a few days later the same folks will be totally alarmed. I suspect it will be checked a lot in the coming weeks and months. But...that's ok and it's a small price I have to pay to be a part of the security process.

I also believe we must be very, very cautious about how we as a people impliment needed security so as to insure that we don't become what Larry mentioned above "a police state" (and also Dave about our rights). Perhaps we've been spoiled with what we've known as "freedom". But isn't that a part of what makes our lifestyle so wonderful?

For my part, I'll bitch less and be more patient when my stuff is suspicious to security people. Steel guitars and accessories are not common items to most of the world and are a bit frightening even when they do what they are designed to do.

I think it's also easy to point fingers, however justified. But for the sake of a few, shouldn't we realize that an entire race is perhaps not our enemy? If someone born in Texas had commited mass murder I'd hate to think that someone with a list of all Texans would eventually hunt me down to get revenge.

God bless our leaders and their decision making. It will affect not only our lives but many people throughout the world.

Mike[This message was edited by Miguel e Smith on 12 September 2001 at 09:05 AM.]

Greg Simmons · Post by **Greg Simmons** » 12 Sep 2001 8:00 am

Here's link to bin Laden's <a href="http://msanews.mynet.net/MSANEWS/199610 ... html">1996 declaration of Jihad (holy war) against the U.S.

And some general background[This message was edited by Greg Simmons on 12 September 2001 at 09:02 AM.]

chris ivey · Post by **chris ivey** » 12 Sep 2001 9:52 am

once again..go to http://www.disclosureproject.org
buy the book, read it....
the gulf war was staged to fund money to build weapons in space..a very bad idea..the bush puppet is already backing this crap......is this war more of the same?
is this why bush was questionably placed in power?

Brandon Roper · Post by **Brandon Roper** » 12 Sep 2001 11:43 am

In response to Miguel e Smith:

I do truely agree w/ some of what you said w/ the major exception of comparing them to a murderer in Texas. I am origonally from Georgia so I am not biased to TX. These are a common race of people as I believe you mentioned yourself. Most share the same twisted demented beliefs about their Allah.
The majority share an undeserving hatred of Americans and yes they"poison" their children w/ the same ideals. Mabey it is not the next genreations fault, buthey have already been "tainted" and pose a reasonable threat to MY future generations! And if you want to make a fair comparison of these people to Texans I think it would be more like this: If a Texan MURDERED thousands of innocent men, women and BABIES and the majority of the state celebrated, rejoiced and supprted this murderers actions then YES the the entire state should be erased form existance. Miguel... I am not attacking you personally, so please dont be offended by my response. I just feel that there is only one true way to absolve this atrocity! NOt for the sake of revenge(which granted would be nice too) but for the security of my family your family and the rest of this great country we live in!!!
-Brandon

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 12 Sep 2001 12:26 pm

Jeez Brandon, I think there should be an appropriate responce against the perpetrators, but it sounds like you harbor the same "twisted, demented beliefs" of the people you are criticizing. "Kill 'em all and let God sort 'em" sure worked well in Vietnam. If you truly believe that bombing entire nations off the planet is a solution, I think you're as dangerous as they are.

Steven Knapper · Post by **Steven Knapper** » 12 Sep 2001 12:28 pm

Alan, Isreal got most of that stuff on their own, they delveloped the BOMB on their own, which the US Gov. tried deperately to stop. Is is not like it was 40-50 years ago when we (U.S.) supplied most if not all the military equiptment they had, those guys have learned to take care of themself's. About the only thing I liked about Bush's speach last night is that there would be no differance between the terrorists and the countrys that harbor them. Now, if he only follows through with that and don't wait 6 months to do it, and it don't have to be "THE" same guys because there is about a dozen country's over there that produce these people, pick the worst one and level it----I'll gurantee you that the others will think twice about having these training camps, financing, etc. for fear of what happens when you F--K with the United States and the rest of the civialized world for that matter. Our way of life in this country is at stake here if this problem of religous fanatics is not delt with and like now. We really blew it when the cold war ended and we let our intelligence system fall apart. There are no two ways about it, either fix it now or we are doombed. I served in an unpopular war, pay my taxes, do my civic duty when asked to, don't alway like to do it but it's a part of being a citizen of the greatest country on Earth (at the moment), I like my way of life and don't want it changed for me or anyone in this country that loves it. Talk will not fix this-----

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 12 Sep 2001 1:19 pm

Alan said,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> And let's not forget that the U.S. is responsible for supplying Israel with the modern weapons used to defend themselves from the rock throwing crowd of Palastinians.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

and then went on to encourage objectivity.

Okay, I’ll try, but you go first.

Do you honestly believe that the only threat that Israel faces (or faced) is rock-throwing Palestinians?

Sorry. Guess I'm a little testy this afternoon.
[This message was edited by Ron Page on 12 September 2001 at 02:20 PM.]

Brandon Roper · Post by **Brandon Roper** » 12 Sep 2001 1:36 pm

Chas-
I oppoligise to you and any others that I may have offended w/ my harsh remedy.(Sincerely) I am not sorry, however, for feeling this way. I love my fellow Americans and do not wish to take shots out at them just as my heart ached to see their suffering yesterday. But do tell me then dear Chas -What do you think would be an appropriate yet tact and tasteful way to handle this quite unpleasant mis-hap. I'm sure many Americans out there right now would hate to see ANY Arabic civillians hurt by an American attack (said w/overwhelming sarcasm)Just as the same way these terrorists took the utmost care not to harm one single innocent US citezen in yesterdays incident. (diddo) Please do respond -Brandon

-Hey...Mabey we could put them on restriction from the T.V. for a week or something.