Closed at authurs request?

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 31 Jul 2001 11:55 am

When I buy a course or CD from any one, when you take the money you give up all rights to that product. It's mine to do with what I wish. Thats the law. Of course I can't copy it for resale, but I can copy it for my use. Thats the law. It's stupid to think I have to put the well being of the steel guitar community before my own. If that were true the producers of such products should give the products away. Let get real, the products are out their because there is a demand. With the demand comes the opportunity to make a buck. Thats called capitalism.

With that said would I take a copy of a CD or course. No, If I want it I'll go and get it, gladly. But when I have used it up I'll do what I want to with it. Like it or not. I have sold and will sell used CDs, tapes and courses.Why? Because this is America the land of capitalism.

Tom email me. I have some courses for sell, cheap.

What are some of you guys smokeing? What ever it is you need to stop, less you end up in the stupid house.

[This message was edited by bob drawbaugh on 31 July 2001 at 01:14 PM.]

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 31 Jul 2001 12:07 pm

What are some of you guys smokeing? What ever it is you need to stop, less you end up in the stupid house.

bob, I'm not smoking anything, and I understand how capitalism works, once you've purchased a product, it's yours to do with as you wish, within the applicable laws. What I'm talking about is a personal decision to support the steel guitar community and the efforts of it's members only.
Now, if you want to f*ck-over the major record labels or your insurance company, you have my blessing and full support.

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 31 Jul 2001 12:29 pm

Chas, point well taken. But, if it's a personal decision why was Tom raked over the coals. Tom was putting his family's well being over that of the steel guitar community. I don't think that's f**k over any one. That funny my personal decision is f**king over some one but your is a nobal cause. Give me a break Chas. If you really want to support the steel guitar community why not set down at the first of ever month and send all these guys a check. Lets call it steel guitar community support. In 40 years this would not be a problem. Just like wellfare this problem would be history.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 31 Jul 2001 12:49 pm

Hmmm....this is really interesting. I can't believe I'm hearing all this flak about buying used anything! Sure, I understand the legal and moral involvments when we're talking about copying, but that's not the issue here! And also, I never could understand that "Software Licensing" stuff either, Bob. It was always my impression that draconian legislation (which exists for no other media or product, that I'm aware of) was somebody's idea of controlling their product...that got entirely out of hand. (Actually, I think it was originally meant to limit upgrade priviliges and customer support, but someone really got carried away.) I can just see Bill Gate's lawyers comin' after me right now if I sell my sole copy of "Windows 3.1" for 2 bucks at a flea market! Are you guys serious?

Consider this, all media is rented/sold (experienced?) on the used market every day. I wonder how much royalties the libraries pay to let people read all them books!!! (LOL!) Any legislation that prohibits re-distribution of "original" (uncopied) media is a joke, or maybe a communistic nightmare of the "Nth" degree.

A large part of my record collection was purchased used, and I have no qualms, moral...legal...or otherwise about this. Most of this stuff's out of print, and not available anywhere else!

I'm sure that somewhere in the world, there's probably someone who's never bought or sold anything used, or second-hand, but I've never met the fellow.

And, I don't think anyone else has, either!

Rick Garrett · Post by **Rick Garrett** » 31 Jul 2001 12:55 pm

Serious question here. I have a series of Jeff Newman courses on video with books of tab and all. Now when I complete those courses and progress beyond what they can teach me, will it be a considered a bad thing for me to offer them for resale on the buy and sell forum? Are they supposed to be a permanent fixture in my music room? Is it wrong for me to help another newbie Steeler down music road by offering these tapes? I mean they are mine. I paid for them and waited nearly two weeks to get them so to me its my business what I do with them after Im done using them. I sure as crud aint gonna throw them out cause somewhere somebody needs them and can get alot of good out of them. Another point here is that should I sell them the new owner will most likely learn from them and then order the next set on his on so in a sense Im actually helping to promote Jeff Newmans courses. Which by the way are very good. What to do guys?

Rick

Larry Miller · Post by **Larry Miller** » 31 Jul 2001 1:03 pm

Rick, e-mail Jeff and ask him. Larry

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GO TITANS GO!!!

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 31 Jul 2001 1:15 pm

Rick, sell them!! If you produce a quailty product,as Jeff Newman does, this well not be an issue. If you don't produce a quailty product maybe the only way to sell thim is to get people not to sell the orignal. That's just my personal opinion and does not reflect the views of the owner of this foum, but should.LOL.

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 31 Jul 2001 1:43 pm

We've discussed Napster ad nauseum, and many or most of us have agreed that it is not legal (or at least not ethical) to distribute the fruits of someone's labor without their permission.

The fact remains that a CD that I purchased is my property. If I were to burn 1000 copies and sell them for $5 apiece I WOULD BE BREAKING THE LAW. If I were to take that original CD to the 'Recycled Music' store and sell it to them for $5, I WOULD BE WITHIN MY LEGAL RIGHTS.

It is wise to separate what's LEGAL from what's ETHICAL. Legal is clearly defined by the law and by any agreement you enter into. Ethics are in the mind of the beholder. If one feels it is inappropriate to 'recycle' that CD because it deprives that artist of his/her royalties, that's fine. DON'T DO IT. But it is perfectly legal to resell a used book, record, CD, or course as long as any personal copies you might have made are destroyed, UNLESS (as b0b pointed out in the case of explicit software licensing agreements) you bought it with the understanding that it was not within your rights to resell it.

That's my read on this, anyway.

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Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Emmons D-10 9x9, 1971 Dobro

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 31 Jul 2001 1:53 pm

Bobbe, whats the difference in your mind between selling a used steel guitar and a used cd, tape or course. After all the builder needs to make a living too and the steel guitar community is such a small community. Would it not be better for them if you would not sell used steel guitars. I see no difference in the two.

Frank Parish · Post by **Frank Parish** » 31 Jul 2001 2:02 pm

This is a no-brainer. I didn't read anything from the word "recycled" indicating bootleg copies at all. Tom even stated later that he was talking about the originals so what's the big deal? It's got to be where you have to define everything you say with a dictionary or somebody will take it the wrong way. I guess "recycled" is a bad word now and it was just catching on too.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 31 Jul 2001 2:04 pm

Makes no differance at all. This whole post was put on here not to take one side or another but to be forceful enough in the beginning with my wording to entice some people with definite opinions to post them! As you can see, is the style that I use very often on this forum. It seems to work very well to get minds working.

A little excitement, a slight amount of anger and some monetary and moral stimulation always works to get things rolling! This is exactly what I've done and it's working very well, as you can see. My personal opinion on this matter? I really don't have one, I'm looking at all sides of it and I'm reading everybody's posts and comments. It also helps me to see what kind of people I'm dealing with in this business.

Most are extremely intelligent, nice, thoughtful, courteous and a blast to communicate with and be around. One or two aren't but it's nice to know who they are before I have to do business with them on a one-to-one basis!

And again, there is some tremendous thinking going on in this thread. I again would like to thank Tom Campbell, Larry Miller, Gary Boyette, Chaz Smith and Bobby Lee and all the other intelligent posts for making this thread one of the most interesting I've ever seen.

Thank you, Bobbe Seymour

Jerry Horner · Post by **Jerry Horner** » 31 Jul 2001 2:10 pm

It has been interesting Bobbe and I commend you for it.

Jerry

Larry Miller · Post by **Larry Miller** » 31 Jul 2001 2:24 pm

Once again, Bobbe has him a nice and very informative thread going, how do you do it Bobbe? I see this one going for several pages, as usual with you. I thought that thread on PEDAL STEEL was dead. LARRY

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GO TITANS GO!!!

chas smith · Post by **chas smith** » 31 Jul 2001 2:37 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Chas, point well taken. But, if it's a personal decision why was Tom raked over the coals. Tom was putting his family's
well being over that of the steel guitar community. I don't think that's f**k over any one. That funny my personal
decision is f**king over some one but your is a nobal cause. Give me a break Chas. If you really want to support the
steel guitar community why not set down at the first of ever month and send all these guys a check<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ok, bad choice of words and a bad example on my part. And I never read the original thread with Tom and his family so I'm not really familiar with the noble causes you are referring to.

What I am simply stating is that if it is at all possible, within the financial limitations that we all labor under, I think it is important to support the efforts of the members of our community.

Post by **b0b** » 31 Jul 2001 2:45 pm

Whenever you have to use asterisks, it's a bad choice of words.

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 31 Jul 2001 3:06 pm

Bobbe, nice way to avoid my question. But I still want to know what the difference is. This could help me decide whom I would like to do business with in the furture.

Rainer Hackstaette · Post by **Rainer Hackstaette** » 31 Jul 2001 3:07 pm

See? I KNEW it was a hoax!

Is this a great forum, or what?

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 31 Jul 2001 3:46 pm

Oh, so it's ok to blast a fellow formite, who had a legitimate request, but it's not ok to sell a used instruction course. Now we are talking ethics.

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 31 Jul 2001 3:55 pm

Bob D., I was answering your question in the first line of my post after your question. As you may or may not know, I'm not one to shy away from questions. I find your and Chas's exchange a little heated and strong but you seem to get you thoughts across without any problems and Chas seems to always be a very intelligent thinker and expresses himself with a lot of class,even when he nails me! I really am enjoying your comments very much,you seem to be very adament in your beliefes.GOOD!
I can watch this forum over a long time and really get to know people well, I feel I know you well,and that is not bad,your a pretty sharp thinker, I don't always agree with everything you say but I do a lot of the time and respect you all the time as I do Chas. I may also use a discourging word once in a while, but not on the forum.However,I 'spose it is a form of communicating, It shows force,anger,determination, etc. I would enjoy meeting you in person as I think you'd be a blast to talk with "live" also.
Bobbe [This message was edited by BobbeSeymour on 31 July 2001 at 07:06 PM.]

bob drawbaugh · Post by **bob drawbaugh** » 31 Jul 2001 4:47 pm

Bobbe, If your objective was to get people to think there was a better way to do it. I think It was wrong to let Tom be roasted the way he was. Why not just ask the question, "Is it wrong to resell CDs and instruction courses". The way you treated Tom was not very classy in my book.

Ok guys you read it there is no difference, according to Bobbe, between selling your courses or your used guitars. If you thought is was wrong to sell your course I don't want to see your used guitars on Buy and Sell. If I do, well I will have to call a @#$#@^. LOL

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 31 Jul 2001 4:48 pm

Now, if you want to f*ck-over the major record labels or your insurance company, you have my blessing and full support

...I think he missed the intelligence and class boat on this statement, Bobbe....I work for an insurance company, it's my bread and butter, it feeds my family....where's the nobility in advocating that it's OK to do me over?...

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 31 Jul 2001 5:16 pm

Why didn't I think of this sooner!

Tom...I know what it's like to be "financially challenged"...been there, done that. Tell you what, you pick out the teaching-tape you want, and I'll pay for it and have it sent directly to you! I rather think you deserve it after being "dragged through the coals".

(Anybody got a problem with that?)

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 31 Jul 2001 6:23 pm

Tom Campbell,I also will give you new tapes,e-mail me and I'll give you a ton of stuff that the artists have already been paid for. CD's , Video's,all great items that have gathered dust in the corners. Ask Buddy Emmons, I've got a lot of excess stock!
I'm serious Tom,Call me and it's yours.
Bobbe

Bobbe Seymour · Post by **Bobbe Seymour** » 31 Jul 2001 6:35 pm

And, to address a earlier remark,The dealer also has a choice with whom he wishes to deal! I love my regular customers and would do almost anything for them. Yes , I am a little choosie in picking customers, just as customers are in choosing dealers. I have a black list as do most dealers, I also have a prefered customer list! Thank God the preferd list is many times longer. Do good business and business will do you good.
I thank all you great customers and lovers of steel guitar NOW! Your the greatest folks on earth.
Promote Steel Guitar! Bobbe