Who prefers the high G on a C6 eight string

Kevin Ruddell · Post by **Kevin Ruddell** » 11 Mar 2005 3:03 pm

I asked Jerry Byrd when I purchased some of his great instructional tabbed songs why he never used the high G on any of his steel tunings. He told me he just couldn't take the sound ( tone ? ) of the high skinny string. I have instructional material from Cindy Cashdollars instructional videos where she uses the high G and doesn't use much of the slants as Jerry does. I have played both and go back and forth but haven't made my mind up which one to stick with at this moment. The reverse slants at any quick tempo are tough although my forward slants are slowly coming along with practice. I was curious if any forum no - peddlars prefer one method or the other . thanks

Todd Clinesmith · Post by **Todd Clinesmith** » 11 Mar 2005 3:37 pm

Kevin,
Good topic. I have become a steel player from a Dobro background as I think Cindy Cashdollar has also. To me it was an easier transition for my C6th to be tuned high to low GECAGECA in the number system is a 5,3,1,6,5,3,1,6.
As a 6 string dobro player I use a high bass G tuning which in the # system is simillar 5,3,1,5,3,1.. But the High G (on the steel) has been bugging me for a while . It is a bit "stingy" or "biting "for a lack of better words.But, I am really used to relying on that 5th note on my high string.
Lately I have been playing with my six string Bakelite tuned ECAGEC.........trying to break myself of the high G. (5th) plus I love the tone of that little guitar !.
I find more pleasing chords , and I feel I can "swing" easier playing on a high E(3rd) than on a 5th
So I still have my 8 string tuned with the high G, and when I pick it up I try to use that high G more as a " tool " than a main lead string for single string runs ect, and try to leave it out of my grips or chords unless it feels......suiting.

I definately like the sound of a high E on top better .....but I have quite a few habits or reliances (is that a word ?) to break. This has been my experience, that I probably will be going through for quite some time. I am curious to see other posts on this topic
Thanks
Todd

Stephan Miller · Post by **Stephan Miller** » 11 Mar 2005 4:10 pm

For me, C6 tuning became a lot more "user-friendly" after I got an 8-string and put that high G on it...just a better vehicle for blues and country, to start with. Two ways to get around that "thin" sound are fatter strings and fatter-sounding pickups. I love my "new" Fender Deluxe with the trap p/u but I'll probably take it from C6 to A6 soon, just to get a fuller sound on top.
Naturally, I still wonder what I'm missing by not having a nice fat F anchoring a C6/Fmaj9. Shoot, if I had 10 strings I'm pretty sure I'd want 12. But yeah...really like that 6-1-3-5 on top. And when or if I tackle dobro tuning it'll look sorta familiar!? -Steve[This message was edited by Stephan Miller on 11 March 2005 at 04:15 PM.][This message was edited by Stephan Miller on 11 March 2005 at 04:16 PM.]

John Dahms · Post by **John Dahms** » 11 Mar 2005 4:28 pm

I use them both. On an 8 string the high G is there but I tend to not land on it as often and play more in the middle. On a 6, the high G allows a familiarity of the intervals found in open G or A tunings and makes it easy to get comfortable. After you get familiar with it you can shift it down to the lower E (first string) version and explore the fuller range available there. Try everything and grow.

Dwayne Martineau · Post by **Dwayne Martineau** » 11 Mar 2005 5:42 pm

Same question here. I mainly use C6 right now and I'm thinking about ditching the high G for a low F...

(low to high: FACEGACE)

...but there are times when you can get such a great SHOT from that high G.

But I think having a low F would open up some great chord options... a IV chord and a Maj7 under the bar.

Need four necks. Or four guitars.

I just put on a Don Helms tuning, with a high G# string. My ears were ringing by time I finished "Your Cheatin' Heart".

BTW...I think it's pretty outstanding that we live in a time where we can just ask Jerry Byrd a question...

Dan Sawyer · Post by **Dan Sawyer** » 11 Mar 2005 6:14 pm

In C6 I prefer the E (3rd) on top, but in A6 a high E (5th) works just fine.

(Hi Steve, you're back!)

Jim Jasutis · Post by **Jim Jasutis** » 11 Mar 2005 6:21 pm

I am very new at all this, but I was going to ask the same question at a future date, before I bought an 8 string instrument.

I have gathered a lot of lesson material to try to figure out which way to go to get started. One of the books I have is the Jerry Byrd set of lessons, as well as his video. On page 119 of his lessons he lists his 8 string C6th tuning as

ECAGECBbC high to low. Nowhere in the lessons does he ever use the two lowest strings, and on the video he even says that the two lowest strings are hardly ever used. This would lead me to believe that a high G might actually be more useful than the extra low notes. But as I said, I was hoping to get lots of input from you guys before I made a final decission.

He lists his C6th+A7th as
ECAGEC#CB

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 11 Mar 2005 6:31 pm

Scale length might be a factor to consider. All my guitars are short scale, and using a .010 or .011 plain string sounds a little too thin for my tastes.

I have a guitar with the high G on it (actually I have it tuned to E13 for Don Helms style, and it sounds pretty good for that). Although, on the higher frets it still sounds thin and twangy to my ears. For the classic country it works better, but for Hawaiian I don't care as much for the sound. Perhaps a long scale guitar would sound different? But someone who has a long scale would need to comment on that.

Rick Alexander · Post by **Rick Alexander** » 11 Mar 2005 7:43 pm

I play triple neck guitars, and usually the front neck has C6 high G tuning. The middle neck has A6, retuneable to C6 with E on top. The back neck has E7. With this setup I can easily get 12 useful tunings. All the tunings and gauges I use are explained here.

RA

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 11 Mar 2005 10:37 pm

I use a high E string. If I want a high 5th, I drop my G's and raise my C's to get A6. It seems that most standard tunings have an E on the top like C6/A7, A6, (L. McAuliffe's) E13, B11, C#min9, etc. This makes the overall neck more useful, to me.

I also find I play more music, and less "licks" if I don't have that high string. I dig deep into the tuning a little bit more. I find myself just "playing the tuning" when I have a high 5th. When I look down on my guitar with a high 3rd, I don't just see C6, I see A min6, F 9 with a sharp seven, and all other chords that are hiding one string too deep for me to easily see with that high 5th.

The only other popular/standard/useful tuning I can think of that has a higher string on it is E13 (ala Don Helms), but if you are already playing on C6, it would be silly to retune six of your eight strings just to have (more or less) another sixth tuning (in my opinion).

And like I said, some things really need a high 5th. When I need that sound, I go to A6. Most older players who used the high 5th are A6 guys, anyways (Leon, Noel Boggs, Herb Remington, Johnny Sibert, Joe Vincent, Bob Koefer, etc.), while all the old C6 guys had a high 3rd (Jerry Byrd, Joaquin Murphy, Billy Robinson, and most Nashville guys who were first and foremost A6 players like, Johnny Sibert). I believe Jimmy Day came up with the high G string to be a pedal tuning, and I think it was in the late fifties or early sixties (well after the "Golden Age" of non-pedal guitar).

My vote is for C6, with A6 when you really need the 5th. I used to play C6 with a high 5th, but I think I play much more musically and stylistically since dropping the "nose bleed" string.

But, to each his own... Chris Scruggs[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 11 March 2005 at 11:02 PM.]

Chris Scruggs · Post by **Chris Scruggs** » 11 Mar 2005 10:57 pm

Jim, I would suggest C6/A7 over straight C6. It gives you two very useful tunings that (after some exploring) you can weave seemlesslly to get many useful chords and unique voicings. Byrd tunes his C6/A7 as E, C, A, G, E, C#, C, A(bass). The advantage of this is that you can get a full C6 tuning on strings 1-5 and 7, while the low six strings are a full A7 tuning (minus the 7th string. I have used straight C6, A6, and E13, and have finally settled on this being te most overall useful tuning. Of course each tuning has its limitations, but with this, I can play sweet pretty Hawaiian and Country stuff on C6, and can rock out or get a nice walk up chord on A7.

The only difference that i do, is my 7th string is a .042 tuned A, with the 8th string below it being a .068 tuned to A an octage lower. This is the tuning Kayton Roberts uses. This tuning can really rock out, but is VERY Hawaiian and old timey sounding, too. Listen to Byrd's middle eight section on "Steelin' The Chimes" (if you have it, or can get a hold of it). While very laid back and precise, it totally rocks. No more sitting back or getting a drink while the rest of the band plays whatever rock song they're playing (like it or not, most bands do this at least once a night), now you can lay it down, too. Plus, you can get diminished chords, 9th chords, and some other cool stuff not available in a straight 6th tuning. With Kayton's variation, the A side of the tuning is very strummable, and is only two strings away from A6 (the second and fourth strings).

Sorry to rant, Chris

PS: The way to really understande C6/A7 is to not view it as two seperate tunings(which is more or less what I just described it as) but weaving it together into one tuning. Also check out Byrd's solo on "Huckleberry Boogie" by Zeb Turner. My favorite solo of Byrd's as a side player, and impossible to play without C6/A7.
[This message was edited by Chris Scruggs on 11 March 2005 at 11:01 PM.]

Ricky Davis · Post by **Ricky Davis** » 12 Mar 2005 12:16 am

If you do use a high G on a non-pedal steel....NEVER EVER put anything less than a .012p; unless it's more than a 24 1/2" scale. Some reason; folks get in there head that a .011p is the right gauge for a high G or G#....well the only time it's the right gauge is for a 24 1/4" "PEDAL" steel and a 25" or more non-pedal steel.
I use a .013p for my short scale Hawaiian Steel; anything less is just plain lutacruss....ha.

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Ricky Davis

Rebel™ and Ricky's Audio Clips
www.mightyfinemusic.com
Email Ricky: sshawaiian@austin.rr.com

Jeff Strouse · Post by **Jeff Strouse** » 12 Mar 2005 2:19 am

Thanks, Ricky!

Travis Bernhardt · Post by **Travis Bernhardt** » 12 Mar 2005 2:26 am

Dan already said it, but I'll repeat that if you want the fifth on top, but don't want the sound of the high G, use A6.

-Travis

Chuck Halcomb · Post by **Chuck Halcomb** » 12 Mar 2005 8:22 am

I have a high G tuning for the 1st string of my C6 neck - but I find I play much more frequently on my A6 neck which has an E for the 1st string. Maybe, like Chris says, the E just works better or is more like the tunings I learned on - E7/E13.

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Remington Steel T-8 Steelmaster
Gibson Console Grande

Dan Sawyer · Post by **Dan Sawyer** » 12 Mar 2005 11:08 am

Chris Scruggs, you're not "ranting" at all. in fact, your posts are well thought out and valuable additions to the board. Thanks!

Todd Clinesmith · Post by **Todd Clinesmith** » 12 Mar 2005 11:43 am

Great insight Chris. That info will go a long ways for me. I also find my self playing too many licks with the high G, and it keeps me too comfortable in a single fret position. Where as with the high E on top I find my self moving around the neck more, finding connecting scales, intervals ect. ect., and maybe lend myself to more improv......or searching.........or just plain getting lost !? ( which some folks might hear as improv. ha, ha, ha)

Maurie Junod · Post by **Maurie Junod** » 12 Mar 2005 11:45 am

Kevin,

I have been using the "G" on top for several years now on my main neck. My guitar is a "Cougar" D8 with a 24" scale.

After starting out with .011" strings I found
out that when I order Jagwires, from right
here on the forum, I can use a .014" gauge
for that "G" without breakage while over-
coming the thinness problem. I have even
tuned it up to "G#" on occasion.

This is the arrangement that I use:

G - .014
E - .018
C - .020
A - .028
G - .034
E - .038
C - .048
Bb- .060
Maurie

John McGann · Post by **John McGann** » 12 Mar 2005 1:44 pm

I like high G 1st string on non pedal C6, and D on pedal steel...the top 3 strings ( G E C) are doubled an octave lower beneath the 4th string (strings 5 6 7) which makes melodic/scale patterns easier to remember. It's a small adjustment the going to the D on top, and the logic of each tuning is more evident (to me, anyway..). That worked for me when I played with a rockabilly band that didn't play any diminished or augmented chords (altough i could play them melodically); the sledding gets tougher when you play music that requires "thicker" chords...

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http://www.johnmcgann.com
Info for musicians, transcribers, technique tips and fun stuff. Joaquin Murphey transcription book, Rhythm Tuneup DVD and more...

Kevin Ruddell · Post by **Kevin Ruddell** » 12 Mar 2005 6:09 pm

Thanks for sharing all your thoughts on this post . I also use a 13p on my short scales for the G and the high G does sound " thicker " on my Georgeboard S8 compared to the thinner brighter sound of my Fenders. I have my GeorgeBoard set up from low A through high G at the moment with the C6 / A7 tuning ( A7#9 ? ) , and my Fender has that on the outside neck and FACEGACE on the inside. I love the sound of the A6 but there is not much instructional material for that tuning compared which is important to me as still somewhat of a beginner in my playing . I learned Santo and Johnny's versions of Deep Purple and Canadian Sunset, and maybe getting the records of the A6 players to learn from is something I should do more of. I agree with the post that having the high G there for a quick " shot " is a cool option . Although Jerry Byrd's tuning with the low A and C then C# makes perfect sense I haven't done to well with that yet and it would be different than what my Fender 800 is set up along with any instructional stuff for that.
Also , Is the Chris Scruggs who posts on the No Peddlars section the same Chris Scruggs who is listed as the lap steel player on the Wanda Jackson : Hard Headed Woman tribute CD I just bought today ?

John Bechtel · Post by **John Bechtel** » 12 Mar 2005 10:13 pm

I prefer the (E)-1st. on my C6/A7
Since I use a T–8 (Short-22½”Scale)
I do use a Hgh~G# on the 1st. str. of my E9/13 and I get my most compatable-sound using a .013p. I use the high string because that's the only way I seem to be able to get around on that tuning! I'm just used to the feel of a 3rd. on top! So, I use a 3rd. on the top of most of my tunings except when I play on E9: E–B–D–E–F#–G#–B–E or B11: Lo-B–A–C#–D#–F#–A–C#–E Again, my biggest influence was/is Jerry Byrd!

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“Big John” Bechtel
’49-’50 Fender T–8 Custom
’65 Re-Issue Fender Twin–Reverb Custom™ 15” Eminence

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 12 Mar 2005 11:46 pm

The whole point of the C6th ORIGINALLY was to have a sixth tuning with the THIRD as a top note.. this was part of the quest for "The Ideal Tuning" and formed the basis for the use of 3 neck guitars, one neck using E6 or variant (Root on top)one neck using C6th or variant (third on top) and A6 or variation (fifth on top)
To me and others from my era C6th with the high G is nothing other than a variation of the A6th structure..Having the right top note available is essential for non pedal playing and STANDARD C6th is an infinitely more flexible tuning than the high G version..
High G ? Not for Hawaiian playing..
IMHO FWIW..

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Steel players do it without fretting

http://www.waikiki-islanders.com

Robbie Daniels · Post by **Robbie Daniels** » 14 Mar 2005 9:00 am

I use the following tunings on my D8 Rickenbacker.
Top neck E13 high to low G# E C# B G# E D B
Bottom neck C6 high to low D G E C A G E C
Pretty straight forward, but works for me.

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MSA D12, MSA S12, 1956 Rickenbacker D8, Evans FET 500LV, Evans SE200, Peavey Transfex Pro

Bob Stone · Post by **Bob Stone** » 14 Mar 2005 10:39 am

I second what Chris Scruggs said about "playing more music" on a C6 with the third on top. I came to electric steel from a Dobro background and not having a fifth on top drove me crazy for quite a while. To overcome that I had to do some serious woodshedding to learn the C6 neck and it really paid off. Now I understand a lot more about substitutions, harmonized intervals, partial chords and scale patterns. There's a lot of music to be made on the C6 neck.

Also, I am among those who don't like the thin sound of a high G string. F is okay, but G sounds too thin to my ears for the music I play.

I have spent just a little time playing A6 with the 5 on top and don't like the string gauges as well as those of C6. To me, string gauges have a lot to do with the feel of a particular tuning and the gauges for C6 feel "right" to me. In the end, it's a matter of personal preferences. But C6 is mighty popular, and for good reasons, in my opinion.

basilh · Post by **basilh** » 14 Mar 2005 5:32 pm

I sometimes wonder, when all of us "Old-Timers" are dead and gone, just who will there be left to tell the REAL story about tunings from the Pro's perspective ?.