Steel Guitar Black Box Review ??

Richard Tipple · Post by **Richard Tipple** » 20 Mar 2004 8:18 am

Just wanted to see how the users of the SGBB like this unit & get some opinions

James Marlowe · Post by **James Marlowe** » 25 Mar 2004 7:54 pm

Me too!
James

Clay Vandenburg · Post by **Clay Vandenburg** » 25 Mar 2004 8:13 pm

Me Three.

Skip Mertz · Post by **Skip Mertz** » 25 Mar 2004 10:41 pm

I got one from Brad and he has his act together! The box really warms up a Peavey amp. It boost power and tone also. He's very concerned about the quality of his product. If you're playing a Peavey , you definatly owe it to yourself to try one.

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 26 Mar 2004 5:30 am

I have used mine so far with two different steels, two different volume (pot) pedals and three different amps. My observations:

It is very well made, and seems rugged.

It definitely belongs between the steel and the volume pedal. It is an excellent "buffer," i.e. it reduces high frequency losses and tone changes with volume changes. The result sounds much better than using a Matchbox: it's at least more neutral or natural sounding, while in comparison the Matchbox now seems to emphasize the highs unpleasantly.

The Black Box really makes solid state amps sound better -- richer, fuller, warmer, more detailed, less sterile, less flat, less shrill, however you want to describe it. It's the tube sound vs. solid state sound thing. If you like the way tube amps sound, you know what I mean. I love it. My wife loves it.

Its effects are less noticeable with a tube amp, in comparison with the steel straight into the amp; but when the volume pedal is inserted, the tube amp sounds better with the Black Box in line than with a Matchbox in line -- solid state ahead of tube is just bassackwards.

I wouldn't say categorically that the Black Box makes a solid state amp sound like a tube amp, and of course not everyone thinks that would be the best thing anyway. However, I bet most people could hear and would like the difference that the Black Box does make, esp. with a pot pedal.

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 26 Mar 2004 7:54 am

Here's a quote from an email I received from Russ Pahl, Lloyd Greens producer/guitarist.

" Brad.... I just wanted to tell you that I was just overdubbing a steel solo on the new Gretchen Wilson (You'll be hearing her on the radio soon!!) album.....and they asked if I could get a little "fatter" sound. I plugged in your Black Box and the producer's eyes lit right up!!! I'd say we hit a tonal home run!!
Thanks Russ"

The feedback in general has been real positive. I've had a few returns though as it doesn't seem to do it for everybody. I think that the warming effect and the slight compression that the tube creates takes away from some aspects of the sound that people are used to. It's interesting as I gain more and more feedback from people trying the Box. The box definitely clears things up and the initial reaction is often that it's brighter and crisper sounding on top than without it, but when you start to play with it in the context of music, the effect is more of a smoothing, fattening thing.

When in Dallas, Tom Brumley messed with one for about an hour in the Mullen room using his Anapeg and his Rickenbacker bakelite lap steel into an Evans and his '59 Bassman. He really liked it, enough so that he decided to take one and he used it on stage for his performance on the Dallas big stage. Tom uses a Roland digital delay and he said that the Black Box "gave back what the Roland delay took away". He found me the next morning and was still pretty enthusiastic and said it gave him a "fatness" he had been looking for.

I have noticed too that when using it with a tube amp that the effect is more subtle which makes sense. It really shines when there are solid state devices in the chain and when a solid state amp is being used. I used it with my Twin last night on a gig and it still brings out some detail that just isn't heard without it. I have a 30-day trial period if people don't like it. I don't want any unhappy Black Box owners out there.

Brad Sarno
http://home.earthlink.net/~bradsarno/blackbox.html

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 26 Mar 2004 9:58 am

I must say that I find the Black Box to be a royal pain in the butt.

I was 2/3 done with my new CD before I finally broke down and had Brad send me one.

Now I've gotta go back and re-record a BUNCH of steel tracks.

I agree with the others that the Black Box filters out the often raspy hi-mids and highs that can result from your pickup throwing more at your rig that it can handle.

Great product -- I notice a difference, even with a very clean rig like mine (Hilton pedal into a Standel amp). Both my Emmons and Fessenden guitars have found a new friend.

Thanks, Brad.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2003 Fessenden S/D-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro, Standel and Peavey Amps

Jerry Van Hoose · Post by **Jerry Van Hoose** » 27 Mar 2004 8:28 am

I sat right beside Tom when he was testing Brad's black box. It gave him a much warmer, fatter, tone, even through his 59 Bassman, and it definitely warms up the tone on a solid state amp. I'll be ordering one soon.

Duane Dunard · Post by **Duane Dunard** » 27 Mar 2004 10:40 am

Everything that has been said above is true. Brad came by my shop just before the Dallas show and we A/B'd his Black Box through several amps and my MSA Millennium. Nice clear, sweet highs. I was impressed enough to buy one.

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 27 Mar 2004 1:30 pm

Brad,

I have to ask; Does it add *any* noise at all to the the signal path?

thx

bob

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Mar 2004 1:32 pm

One very good reason the sound is less strident is because the tube's interaction directly with the pickup causes more pleasantly ordered harmonics in a more "natural" way than any solidstate preamp can do.

This means more like the actual harmonic series created by an acoustic instrument.

This has two effects, one on your amp and speaker, and the other on your ears.

The amp doesn't have to recreate the "un-natural" harmonics created by pickup / transistor interaction,
nor the manipulative roll off caused by pots, if they are used,
so you amp doesn't have to try to recreate them in it's clean path.

(The Hilton pedal has this positive effect with it's buffering before the pedals level control and also it's choice of solidstate components. This is one of the main reasons the Hiton has caught on. But it doesn't have a tube, since this is impractical in a pedal.

A very, very few people didn't like their Hiltons,
because I suspect, of the stridency of their AMPS now putting through unpleasent harmonic orders because their pick up is now seeing the preamp at full bandwidth,
that their pot pedals had been masking by their roll offs of highs.

I in NO WAY blame the Hilton pedal for this, my culprits are the pick-up and amp combination.
I have a 705 pick-up on E9 which I still hate through the Hilton, but the C6 Truetone sounds killer.
I 100% blame the pick-up in this case. )

Secondly our ears are used to the harmonic series of acoustically created instruments, so naturally to our ears these transister created harmonics seem both un-natural and harsh.

A single plucked string in free air will have a natural order of harmonics, based on natural physics.

When we hear 3 notes form a chord interacting, we are hearing the lower roots and their interactive beats,
but also above them is the interaction of higher order harmonics.

Our ears take this for granted as just part of the sound, unless we are playing a harmonic "Chime", which mutes the root note and emphasizes higher order tones.
Yet these tones are still there on top of all notes, but at a lower relative level.
Still interacting with each other ;
along the audio chain, in the air and into our ears.

One comment above was it seems warmer and less harsh. It is likely putting out the same levels of highs,
but those highs don't have the disonance of un-naturaly ordered harmonics stacked on top and interacting poorly,
so it seems less strident.

Since all harmonics are essentially multiples above the root notes,
almost like echos that rise in pitch,
or the interactions of multiple harmonic orders from multiple roots at the same time,

it gives the chance for you to have harmonic interactions from multiple notes simultaniously,
as with for example a well tempered piano.

A simple analogy is take a length of rope tied to a door knob and raise one end smoothly up and down causing a wave to go to the knob and return.
As you watch this, you can see, if you're doing it smoothly, an relatively even wave that you can get in sync with and resend.

Now give a little tap periodically 6-12" out from your hand, or allow your hand to bump the rope as you raise or lower for each cycle.

You will see a ripple along the length that will bump into it's self as it goes along the bigger wave created by your raising hand.

The rope wave combination will be more dificult to keep smooth and natural in it's wave form.

The 2nd hand is adding other waves ontop of the bigger waves and not in a smooth harmonic order.

Your steel string is the rope, your raising hand is picking, and the tapping hand is the out of order harmonics.

Then think about all the work your amp is called on to do.

Bob S. asked about noise.
Tubes have a touch more self noise than a top shelf transistor,
but if you look at the audiophile world the best AND most expensive nutcase audiophile amps are tubes.

No audiophile would pay $50,000 for a pair of mono power amps if they were noisier than an transistor amp.

A properly designed tube circuit by todays standards would pass most any critical listening a steeler jury would make as to it's noise floor.

And Brad is right up there with current design theory and choice of components. If he were using drek and a dirt basic tube design, he could built it an charge $30+ shipping,
but he has built it correctly by todays design criteria with the best components.

Without hearing it, but knowing Brad,
I am sure he has hit a ball out of the park with this one.
I only hope I can afford one before the backorder list gets too long.

I am also sure this will sound great right before any regular guitarists effects rack too.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 28 March 2004 at 02:17 PM.]

CrowBear Schmitt · Post by **CrowBear Schmitt** » 28 Mar 2004 1:49 pm

in other words, get a Hilton, TrueTones and a Black Box and your on your way to the Holy Land

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 28 Mar 2004 1:52 pm

Glad to see your awake CB!

Jackie Anderson · Post by **Jackie Anderson** » 28 Mar 2004 3:37 pm

Bob, I have noticed no added noise at all.

John McClung · Post by **John McClung** » 28 Mar 2004 3:48 pm

Would a player get the same benefits in sound using a tube pre-amp? Does one of those generally do the same thing as the Black Box, Brad? If not, what's the difference? Make your explanation simple, I'm pretty basic regarding electronics! Steel-to-Matchbox 60-to-volume pedal-to-Webb amp has worked fine for me for years, but of course, I'm curious about the latest wrinkle in tone.

Mr. Twang

Rich Weiss · Post by **Rich Weiss** » 28 Mar 2004 4:12 pm

In other words, get a Hilton, TrueTones and a Black Box and your on your way to the Holy Land.

That's what it's starting to sound like, isn't it?

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 28 Mar 2004 6:45 pm

John - the main deal with the Black Box is that the pickup gets to directly interact with the tube with nothing in between. You plug the guitar into the Black Box, then on to your volume pedal. There is a unique thing that happens that you won't hear with a transistor matchbox in that same spot. There is an enhancement and an increase of the musical overtones and there is a slight bit of compression. It's just what tubes do. To my ear this is a tonal enhancement that brings out more nuance and sweetness from the pickup. After you come out of the black box, your guitar signal can then go to whatever rig you're used to. You may find that you'll want to adjust your tone a bit to compensate for the differences.

It's funny. Some people report a warming or fattening of the sound. Others have reported an increase in clarity and presence in the treble. I kind of hear both, but with the many variables of guitars, pickups, volume pedals, effects units, amps, preamps, speakers, etc., I understand why the reports vary so widely.

I've really grown used to the sound of the Black Box and I miss it when it's not there. I find it clears up the sound and makes it more lively and interesting sounding. I've had a few people who just didn't feel it enhanced their tone at all, but so far most are pretty happy with it and find the tube sound to be beneficial. I have a 30-day return policy if anyone isn't happy. I'd rather buy it back than to know someone is unhappy and feels stuck with it.

Brad Sarno

Steven Welborn · Post by **Steven Welborn** » 28 Mar 2004 11:48 pm

Brad, the Blackbox sounds like it might be a nice compliment along with a Webb amp. Let me get this question out of the way though. Some P/P players are hesitant to add too much stuff between their guitar and amp in wanting to preserve the purity of their sound. I stopped using my Matchbox for that reason. Would this not be a factor with the BB?

Larry Behm · Post by **Larry Behm** » 29 Mar 2004 5:02 am

Brad how does the box before the effects processors work out? I run my effect before my Hilton and then to my Webb.

Larry Behm

Bob Snelgrove · Post by **Bob Snelgrove** » 29 Mar 2004 6:15 am

Brad

Whose tubes are you using and how critical are they as far as tone goes? in other words, will different tubes totally change the tone or is the tube differences not a factor in the tone?

bob

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 29 Mar 2004 8:55 am

Stephen - I also use a Webb with a push/pull and now the push/pull has a True-Tone in in it. I had an E-66 which I liked for a humbucker. The BB would go in the place of the matchbox. It's a whole different animal, sonically. The Webb is partially FET based and sounds real nice by itself. I found the BB + the Webb to be very complementary though. My band even commented on the sound at a gig recently. I'd say that it wouldn't hinder the p/p sound one bit. I think it helps add some good stuff to the Webb and the p/p. But you can check one out to decide for yourself.

Larry - putting the black box first right out of the guitar is how I recommend using it anyway. It would work pretty much anywhere in the chain, but by having it first, you then create the pickup/tube relationship which is where I think much of the magic happens. Magnetic pickups love to see tubes. So in the setup you're describing it really shouldn't alter the rest of your FX chain.

Bob - I went thru a handful of tubes (12AU7) when deciding what should be stock. I had the cheap chinese one and it was too wimpy, kind of sweet up top, but no cajones. The NOS Sylvania was too harsh. The old Phillips was OK but still a bit hard sounding. The NOS GE sounded great and was going to be the one until I heard the new JJ (formerly Tesla) from the Slovak Republic. It was pretty much hands down my favorite in the Black Box. Real robust and meaty sounding, but with a real energized upper midrange and sweet top end. It was just the most musical. It surprised me because it has a short plate and I tend to like long plates in preamp tubes. No rules I guess, just what the ear likes. The tube is a 12Au7 so people are free to experiment. All tubes sound different, not radically, but different.

I'm currently sold out of Black Boxes and the next batch of chassis is what I'm waiting for. They tell me 3-1/2 weeks. Stay tuned.

Thanks All,

Brad Sarno

Gary Dunn · Post by **Gary Dunn** » 30 Mar 2004 10:33 am

Brad,

What is the web site address for the SGBB?

Thanks[This message was edited by Gary Dunn on 30 March 2004 at 10:33 AM.]

Brad Sarno · Post by **Brad Sarno** » 30 Mar 2004 11:34 am

http://home.earthlink.net/~bradsarno/blackbox.html

Brad Sarno