Lowest height pedal currently manufactured?

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 8 Feb 2004 2:11 pm

Who makes the lowest profile pedal and what is it's height?

The lowest I've found so far is the Goodrich L120 which I estimate to be 1 3/4" (one of their pedals was listed as 2 1/4" and the low profile version was said to be 1/2" less than that).

But every 1/4" helps so if there is someone making a 1 and 1/2" or less pedal I'd like to hear about it.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 8 Feb 2004 10:15 pm

Tom,
I knew someone once who needed a low pedal. He had adjusted the height of his steel to the max. As he was purely a home player, he made a platform for the steel out of 3/4 plywood, and cut a hole for the volume pedal to drop into.
R B

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 9 Feb 2004 10:03 am

I have not seen any low profile pedals lower than my current low profile pedal that still moves up and down 1 1/2 inches. 1 1/2 inches up and down movement is the standard up and down movement of steel guitar pedals. Most people don't consider the fact that a pedal can not move up and down more than it's height. For example, a 1 1/2 inch high pedal can not move up and down more than 1 1/2 inches. I know manufacturers who have reduced up and down movement to 1 1/4 inches to claim they have the lowest pedal. In doing so they lost volume. This is similar to shooting yourself in the foot to accomplish some goal. Another thing that never seems to come to mind is this: The less up and down movement you have the quicker the taper goes from zero to wide open. All low profile pedals have their hinge point set further to the rear. The hinge point has to be further to the rear to lower the height. When the hinge point is set further to the rear, the action seems to speed up causing very quick zero to wide open. Seldom, if ever does anyone think of raising their steel guitar. They always think of lowering their pedal. There is much, much more to consider besides just the height of the pedal. If height is "ALL" that matters, I can build you a 1/4 inch high pedal. This pedal is made of pressure sensitive conductive foam. The harder you push on the foam, the more volume you get. No, I'm not joking! If you want the absolute lowest pedal, consider this 1/4 inch high foam pad. Just remember that the pedal will "NOT" move up and down more than 1/4th inch. Hope this information helps.

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 9 Feb 2004 11:48 am

Keith,
If a spring loaded linear pot was used, laying on the baseplate of the pedal, a piece of string fastened to the moving part of the pedal, going around a pulley, then to the linear pot, you could have 1 1/2 inches of movement in a pedal much thinner than 1 1/2 inches.
R B

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 9 Feb 2004 1:20 pm

I agree Richard. You could arrange a gearing system, or spring system, where a pot would move any amount you wanted as your foot was pressed down. Suppose we have a one inch high pedal: If a pedal is one inch high, the pedal can not move up and down more than one inch. Anything that has a hinge can not move up and down more than it's height. One other thing I need to mention is this: What height?------------- Front height, rear height, height at hinge point, height when pedal is wide open, height when pedal is all the way off, height when pedal is 1/2 way open. When a person is measuring height of a volume pedal just exactly what is meant? Food for thought.[This message was edited by Keith Hilton on 09 February 2004 at 01:21 PM.]

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 9 Feb 2004 8:45 pm

Thanks Keith. I would define height as the height of the pedal in it's fully horizontal position.

The pressure sensitive pad sounds interesting for a wah-wah pedal. But as a volume pedal how would you set level and keep it there?

Unless you split the pad into 2 halves..one for louder and the other for softer with a sample and hold to keep the volume fixed when you lift your foot?

The Hilton low profile at 1 and 1/2" height is better than what I'm using now and the optical control will certainly keep me from dealing with pot noise.

I will follow up on your e-mail when the Feds return the money I loaned them last year. We submitted our tax forms electronically this year so supposedly the refund will get to us quicker.

Thanks for steering me in the right direction.

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 9 Feb 2004 9:05 pm

Now you have me day dreaming...

Let me refine the height definition as the height of the heel part of the pedal in the horizontal position since it is the height of the heel that affects the height of my knee.

If it were possible to have a spring loaded return on a pedal hinged at the base (like the gas pedal in my Austin Healey) that would allow your heel to sit on the floor for an effective height of 0" inches. But you could never take your foot off without the volume dropping to the lowest level.

Unless you used the pressure sensitive pad under the heel to release a friction clutch when your heel was there to provide fast motion of the pedal and to lock the pedal in position when you lift your foot up and away from the pedal?

Like I said..I'm just letting my mind wander here. I just want an off the shelf pedal. But I would be interested in the logistics of a hinged base pedal design.

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 9 Feb 2004 10:41 pm

Tom,

I think that having a pedal with a hinge at the extreme back would give you the lowest height pedal, but only when the pedal is on full and when the foot is flat on the floor.

In addition to other problems, one problem with such a design would be that your right knee would move up and down as a function of pedal position. For example, at the lowest volume setting, your knee would be raised up and at full on your knee would be lowered.

I think ideally, a volume pedal should have the pivot axis located directly below the center of the leg (which would place it slightly behind the arch of the foot) AND as close to the top of the pedal as possible.

In this manner, when you rock your foot back and forth, the height of your knee remains fairly constant which can be an advantage when playing your right knee levers.

If the pedal pad is made really thin (such as on the Ernie Ball pedals) then you can get a pretty low pedal and still have sufficient travel to make the pedal functional. I've never seen a Hilton pedal, so I don't know how they're designed. But 1-1/2 inches seems pretty low. The question is, what does the 1-1/2 actually measure? In order for that statistic to be meaningful, one would have to know the answer. I'd like to know myself.

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 10 Feb 2004 5:33 am

Hi Tom... I came on this morning to remove that bottom hinge post...too late!

You are correct... Even with my heel directly on the floor before the hinge with just my toes on the pedal my kneee still moves up and down.

So the bottom hinge is not a good idea and is probably why no one makes one of that design.

Boy..I wish I got to clear out that post

That's what I get for day-dreaming without thinking!

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 10 Feb 2004 8:33 am

Tom, I think you had the right idea. Nearly every design has its pro's and con's. The thing about most pedal steel volume pedals is that the pedal pad (for lack of a better term -- I'm referring to the part your foot sets on) is a sort of box-like design that has a significant height to it and fits over the top of another box that contains the electronics.

This box-like design causes your foot to set a substantial distance above the floor. That is, even with the pedal in full off position, your heal is still and inch or two above the floor (or more in some cases).

If you take a look at the Ernie Ball design, you'll see that the pedal pad is just a thin plate that, when in the off position, is just about touching the floor at the heal end. This means that when you have your foot on the pedal, your heal is also just about touching the floor.

You can't really get any lower than that. That's why I think that the Ernie Ball type of pedal with the pedal pad configured as a thin plate that goes all the way to the floor at the heal end when in the off position will provide the lowest possible pedal height, for a given amount of pedal rotation or actuation.

John Fabian · Post by **John Fabian** » 10 Feb 2004 10:34 am

The off postion on current designs is irrelavent since the top of your leg (lap) is highest when the volume pedal is in the fully on position.

You really should think about having your guitar raised (or lowered) to provide the proper ergonomic arrangement for comfortable playing.

John Fabian[This message was edited by John Fabian on 10 February 2004 at 10:43 AM.]

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 10 Feb 2004 10:59 am

John, if the pivot axis of the pedal is properly positioned directly below the center of your leg, then the height of your knee will not change (to any significant degree) as you work the pedal (see a more detailed explanation in my above post).

Therefore, the height of your heel relative to the floor when the pedal is in the off position is VERY significant, because that is what determines the height of your knee.

Thus, a pedal which allows your heel to be touching (or nearly touching) the floor when the pedal is in the off (or lowest) setting, and which has its pivot axis directly below the center of the leg, is the lowest pedal you can get.

To be any lower, you'd have to have your heel below the surface of the floor.

A pedal that has a "box-type" tredle or pedal pad (whatever you want to call it) forces your heel to be a given distance above the floor when in the full back (or lowest) setting, wherein that given distance is generally the thickness of the box-type of pedal pad. That means that the pivot axis for that type of pedal has to be correspondingly that much higher off of the floor in order to allow the pedal to function. This, in turn, causes the top of your knee to be that much higher.

So, box-type pedals, because of the nature of their design, can accurately be called "higher" pedals than those which allow your heel to touch or nearly touch the floor.

[This message was edited by Tom Olson on 10 February 2004 at 11:02 AM.]

richard burton · Post by **richard burton** » 10 Feb 2004 11:03 am

John,
Carter guitars could hit the bullseye with my latest idea; Build a volume pedal into the pedal bar. It could have a regular A B C type pedal operating a pot installed in the pedal bar.
R B

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 10 Feb 2004 11:38 am

Tom, I like your ideas on foot movement. The pedal you mentioned is higher than the Goodrich or Hilton pedals. Much thought and experiment, over lots of years, went into the hinge point and height of the Goodrich and Hilton pedals. They were designed for Steel Guitar players first. Most pedals on the market today are not designed for steel players, but are designed for stand up guitar players. Tom it is my opinion that the pedal you mentioned was first designed for stand up guitar players. Of course that is just my opinion. I must say that my good friend John Fabian has the correct solution. Instead of always thinking of lowering the pedal, consider raising the steel slightly. In this way you can use a standard steel guitar pedal that has a good feel. One other thing to think about: "Who says you have to have your heel on top of the pedal? Why can't your heel, or part of it, be off the back of the pedal?" I have seen many people use their pedal this way. This really lowers your knee height. I think my pedal is the only pedal that has optional back risers that can be screwed in, in the back. When used these risers allow you to get every possible foot angle.

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 10 Feb 2004 3:42 pm

Keith, thanks for the reply and info. I've only had experience with a couple of different pedals and I have not seen yours, but of course I've heard lots of good things about yours and the Goodrich products.

I'm sure you are correct that the Ernie Ball padal was not designed for use with the pedal steel. However, I think that if a new pedal was designed, and which would borrow some of the features from that pedal, a really low pedal could be made.

However, like I said, I have not seen your pedal, and 1-1/2 inches seems really low. What does this 1-1/2 inch dimension actually represent? Is it the height of the pedal when, for example, the pedal is rotated so it's flat? Or, is it the height of the back of the pedal when it's in the full off position? etc. etc.

By the way, could you explain in more detail what the "risers" are that your refer to? What part of the pedal do they attach to and what direction do they face? What do they actually do as far as affecting the position of the pedal and/or the foot?

I agree that a good solution is to raise the guitar, but another concern that I have is that I would want to have both knees as close as possible to the same height, both for comfort and to have consistency in the leverage applied to both sets of knee levers.

That's a good idea you have about placing the heel of the foot behind and off of the pedal. That would work pretty good, especially if the pivot axis was far enough to the rear of the pedal so that you could still rock your foot back and forth without causing the leg to rise up.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 10 Feb 2004 6:29 pm

I take it this is speculation and curiosity? Before you go "reinventing the wheel", here's some things to think about...

But every 1/4" helps...

Helps who? Not being adversarial, but I think the current low-profile pedals by Hilton, Goodrich, and the old Fender pedal are just fine, and so do 99% of all other steelers.

Also, a rear-hinged pedal would be far more tiring to the leg, as it would force the muscles on the front of the leg to do most of the work, instead of splitting the work between the muscles in the front and the rear of the leg.

An awful lot of thought has gone into the volume pedals already designed for steel guitar. I'm not saying we couldn't improve, but just commenting that this is one area that I feel is pretty well covered, at present, unless you have some physical disability that would require something different.

Keith Hilton · Post by **Keith Hilton** » 10 Feb 2004 6:54 pm

Tom, I have applied for a patent on the back risers that can be screwed into the back bottom of my pedals. All my pedals have two 1/2-20 threads cut into the bottom of the back edge of the pedal. Levelers screw in these threaded holes. These levelers have male 1/4-20 threads and a hard rubber material pad. They are screwed into the 1/4-20 female threads. This allows a person to raise the back of the pedal up, thus creating a more comfortable foot position.
I personally don't use them, but there are many famous players who use my pedals with these risers installed. Probably the lowest pedal, with the hinge point in the center, was the old Fender pedal. It still moved up and down 1 1/2 inches and was very,very,very low. I am fascinated by good engineering, and this old Fender pedal was great engineering. It was stamped out of sheet metal, which is many times less expensive than sand cast aluminium. It had a crome finish which eliminated much production heartache. The arrangement of pulleys was very clever, from an engineering standpoint. It seems the Ernie Ball pedal tried to use the Fender pulley design but got their pedal about 3 times higher than the Fender. In my opinion the Fender design was much better than the Ernie Ball design. Especially if you have to re-string that mess inside the Earnie Ball. The Fender was much cleaner and easier to change out a pot. Of coure this is just my layman's opinion and simple observation. Tom, you mentioned something about having your knees the same height and that helps you operate your knee levers. This may not be the case for everyone, the important thing is to feel comfortable. Back when I was playing for a living, that was way back when Moby Dick was a minnow, I once had an old Morley pedal that must of been 5 or 6 inches high. At the time I was playing with some bands where I had to use good fuzz distortion, and a Wah Wah effect, and the old Morley pedal had these features, plus volume control. I used to set my old Morley foot pedal, and right leg, on the outside of the two back legs of the steel guitar. Yes--leg outside the steel, not under it. Looking back, I don't see how I played that way, but at the time it worked and felt comfortable. Sometimes when you are young and totally into your music you make due with something that seems to work. Then again I did a lot of crazy things in my younger days.

Tom Althoff · Post by **Tom Althoff** » 11 Feb 2004 4:17 am

<helps who?>
Helps me Donny. I'm the only one who will be playing this instrument so I'm only concerned about my comfort (selfish as that may sound

).

Specifically I suppose I should have stated that every 1/4" helps to keep my right knee from being hit by the belcranks under my Sierra Session D-10.

Yes I could put out some more cash to have the pedal rods lengthened and longer legs added. Of course since Sierra went out of business last year and the new owners have not begun selling spare parts yet that road is a bit too bumpy for me to take just yet.

But since I am in the market for a new volume pedal anyway I figured I'd do some research into who makes the lowest pedal hoping for a specific answer to the question.

Don't raise the bridge if you can lower the water.

My original question was merely who manufactures the lowest pedal.

It looks like a tie between two name brands as far as low profiles go and I have chosen to go with Hilton by virtue of the infrared technology.

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 12 Feb 2004 7:32 pm

Now I understand, Tom.

Most all guitars can easily be raised 1/4 to 1/2 inch without the use of rod extenders. There's enough extra threads in the pedal rods, and even non-adjustable legs can be raised slightly by adding coins or washers in the leg-tips! In addition, most pedals (even the LP Hilton) can be lowered some by removing the rubber feet and the rubber foot-surface from the top of the pedal. There's almost always a way to get a little more room "underneath" if you need it.

As for me, well I'm lazy so I just raise the rear legs and tilt the guitar forward a little when I need some more room. I have noticed, however, that you can prevent your knee from going up and down so much when operating the volume pedal by getting the volume pedal farther back (away from the pedal board). The farther back you put the pedal, the less your knee will move. Try it!

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 12 Feb 2004 11:12 pm

[This message was edited by Bengt Erlandsen on 12 February 2004 at 11:21 PM.]