new Tube pedal steel amp

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 24 Jan 2003 10:03 am

If soemoen were to market an all-tube amp, designed esp. for pedal steel,
Would there really be a market for this?
What features would ya'll want?
What type of current production speaker (so jbl d130's are out of the question

?
What wattage range(s)?
Tube reverb, efx loop for digital reverb, or both?
How much would one be willing to pay for a custom built, handwired amp?

would there bea want/ need for a separate 6-string guitar channel or not? ( I know a few gusy play both steel and 6string, and if one amp would be friendly to both -- granted there woudndt be tons of options on the guitar channel, most guys use pedals anyways).

let me know what ya'll think!

Joe Smith · Post by **Joe Smith** » 24 Jan 2003 3:25 pm

OK, Here is what would work for me.
It would only need one input. Two 6l6s in the output
One 15" speaker. A switch to change the ohms from 4,8, or 16 with a jack for an extention speaker.
Adjustable bias control.
A spring reverb.
The weight needs to be around 55-60 lbs.
The main thing is that it sound like a 50s
Standel.
I think the problem is that the cost would be very high.
I wouldn't want to pay over 600-700 bucks for it and I don't know if it could be built for that and leave room for a profit.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 24 Jan 2003 5:27 pm

There was a thread on this a month or so ago. People wanted pretty much what you have asked for. It needs to have at least 200 watts of power, preferably 300-400. It needs to have a lot of low end response and the kind of EQ the Peavey Nashville series have. It will necessarily be very heavy. So a seperate amp head is desirable.

Mike Brown of peavey looked at the wish list and said it would be very heavy and fairly expensive.

They are getting so good at modeling the tube sound with solid state amps, it might be better to have a transtube amp instead of a real tube amp. These are way cheaper, lighter, and more reliable. I have a Peavey Transtube Supreme. It is a lead guitar amp head with 100 watts. By dialing the post gain back and the pre gain up, you can get any level of distortion you want. The reverse gives you a clean tube sound. There is a control for how much tube-like sound you get. It has a separate set of controls for an all solid state, clean sound. I run this amp head through a 15" JBL and get a pretty good tube sound for pedal steel. But it was built for lead guitar, not steel - so I have to dial the treble all the way down, the mid most of the way down, and the bass all the way up in order to get a passable steel sound. Even then I still need more bass and less treble. Also, at only 100 watts, there is very little head room. With even a moderately loud group I am bumping the end of my volume pedal and beginning to get too much distortion. If Peavey would make one of these for pedal steel, with more bass response, and at least 200-300 watts, I would love it.

Finally, a headphone jack is essential.

------------------
Student of the Steel, and cheap instrument connoisseur: customized 1970 Sho-Bud Maverick, Fessy S12U, Emmons S12 E9 P/P, Nashville 400, Fender Squire, Peavey Transtube Supreme into JBL 15", 1968 Gibson J50, '60s Kay arch-top, 7-string Raybro, customized Korean Regal square-neck, roundneck Dobro 90C, 1938 Conn Chu Berry tenor sax, '50s Berg mouthpiece, Hamilton upright piano. You make it, I'll play it (more or less)

Donny Hinson · Post by **Donny Hinson** » 24 Jan 2003 8:41 pm

The Fender "Super Twin Reverb" was about as good as you can get for a tube steel amp. The only drawbacks were the weight (about 95 pounds), and the reverb (which drops out at certain EQ settings). It had 160 watts RMS, and in a tube amp, that's all you'll ever need. The graphic equalizer on this amp created sounds that no other "combo" amp in the world could come close to. It was a truly awesome amp, with tonal variations that put anything else I've ever seen (or heard) to shame.

IMHO, this was Fender's greatest achievement.

Tyler Macy · Post by **Tyler Macy** » 24 Jan 2003 9:45 pm

I don't think an amp like this would be that successful. Fender tried it with the "custom" vibrasonic in the early-mid 1990s. It was basically a twin with a 15" and a specially voiced steel channel. I don't think it sold well at all.

The problem is that there are thousands of great sounding silverface twins from the 70s (many with JBLs) that sound great for steel avaibable for around $500-$600. Also, these are easily modified to hold a 15" speaker.

I think most steelers' objection to tube amps is the lack of headroom(twins range from 85 to 135 watts). A blackface twin breaks up pretty early, and can barely cut it for live pedal steel playing. A 135 silverface twin is much cleaner and more suited, but the tone isn't quite as sweet.

Maybe a boutique builder could build a high power (6X6L6) amp with a single 15". The speaker would need to be an EV or something else that could handle the high power. However, I don't think the demand is really there.

I love my '69 twin with JBLs. I have D130F on the way to put in an extension cab to give me a little more clean volume.

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 24 Jan 2003 9:59 pm

Gino,

Would there be a market? I dunno.

What features do I want? A powered speaker. 1 channel, Tube power amp. 4 6L6 tubes. 1 15 inch JBL. Current K 130 model. About 80 watts, In a good cab. Removable back panel for open-back or closed/ported. Period.

Today's signal processors and preamps are great. They will keep changing for the better. This way I can choose and change the preamp, effects, and have a workhorse for a power amp.
When I double on six string, I'll use an A/B switch, change the presets, and play.

Remember when we had a head unit with a speaker cab? Well, now you can have a 1 or two space rack for a head unit, and a utility tube amp.

Dreamin'

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 24 Jan 2003 10:44 pm

I was thinking using 6550 or KT88 power tubes as opposed to 6l6's. Why? A pair of 6550's into the proper OT can produce a clean 70-100watts power each. A quad would give you 200watts, and a set of 6 will give you 300watts. -- look at the Ampeg SVt -- 300+ LOUD watts of bass power. More than enough clean headroom for a pedal steel, however, the voicing is all off for steel, and the weight, well another issue.

What I had in mind:

Fender style passive EQ, but with midshift, and voiced for steel, however with an increased headroom. Possible limiting to avoid any transient breakup.

Either spring reverb or I was more leaning toward a buffered efx loop -- that way folks could use any processor they want, or even an old tube reverb

A totally differnt phase inverter design than the twin, optimised for headroom, to drive the power tubes, which would be running in a class B mode -- we aren't looking for the class a type saturation etc, but rather CLEAN, almost hifi type output -- think MacIntosh power amps....

Hmmmmm the more I think about it, sounds like I want to build Buddy Cage/ Jerry Garcia's rig into a single combo amp *laugh*

Chris DeBarge · Post by **Chris DeBarge** » 25 Jan 2003 6:10 am

Yeah Gino, an SVT in a combo with JBL's, what a concept!

On another note, I can't believe you guys want that much power. Remember, solid state and tube watts are very different animals. If I had to put my 2 cents in, I'd say:

2 6L6 or 6550 power tubes, 15", reverb. Wait, doesn't that describe the old Sho-Bud single channel? Mmmm, Sho-Bud...

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 25 Jan 2003 10:22 am

Gino,
I like the 6550 idea, but like the KT88 idea even more...How about seperate pieces....
Preamp, Power amp, Speaker cabs....Make the preamp and the power amp stereo....2 KT88's for each channel !!...Preamp would have a buffered effects loop and different gain stages that could be footpedaled into use...
Single 15 inch speaker cabs as they seem to be the steel standard....It would be lighter to carry than a combo, and sound would be incredible....
My Park 75 guitar amp is running 2 - KT88's, and your ears will bleed before you get much of any distortion...Lot's of clean headroom !!

Ron Randall · Post by **Ron Randall** » 25 Jan 2003 1:36 pm

James,
You reminded me of the option for stereo.
So...I want 2 powered speaker cabs, about 80 watts each, 6L6 power tubes, 15inch K130 JBL's. Powered speaker cabs would have an on/off/standby power switch, and a volume knob. Need a balanced/unbalanced 1/4 input for the signal.

Then I can choose my favorite preamp/compressor/eq, stereo fx unit. These will keep changing and improving. You can do all this now with Transtubefex, or a new MPX G2 from Lexicon. Direct outs, headphones, compression, EQ's, etc.

Ron

Peavey is real close to this concept with their PX300 solid state powered speaker with a 15BW, and a Transtubefex

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Jan 2003 2:34 pm

100 watts from a tube amp is all I'd ever need. I once played a bar gig with a 180 watt Mesa/Boogie (six 6L6 tubes). It was way too much power for the room. Even with a 100 watt amp, you need to have a half-power switch to calm things down for smaller rooms. I'm currently using a Mesa 50/50 in my rack, and I never feel squeezed.

You should have channel switching in the preamp section. One channel must be squeaky clean, regardless of the gain settings. The other should distort nicely. Each channel should have its own distinct EQ controls, because the tone settings you want for distortion are quite different from what you want for the clean sound.

An effects loop is a must! Ideally, each channel would also have its own effect send/mix controls, so that you could set the distortion channel dryer than the clean channel.

It's very useful to have input gain and master volume controls for each channel, and then have a final master that controls the overall volume of the power amp. That way you can keep the relationship between the two channels the same, and just turn up the final master when you need more volume. My Mesa Maverick is set up this way, and I really like that level of control.

I think speakers are a very personal choice. The important thing is that the EQ section should be versatile enough to get a good sound out of any speaker.

A lot of people use stereo effects. A tube combo amp that kept the stereo separation after the effects loop, and then could send half of the signal to a satellite speaker, would be really hot! Ideally, you could run the amp as a combo with 100 watt mono, or with an external speaker as 50/50 stereo. Maybe I'm dreaming here.

Oh yeah, price. I think an amp like the one I described could probably sell for about $1600 new. I don't think you could make a profit at that price, though. The market is pretty small. Most steel players won't spend over $1000 for an amp.

------------------
<img align=right src="http://b0b.com/b0b.gif" width="64" height="64">Bobby Lee - email: quasar@b0b.com - gigs - CDs
Sierra Session 12 (E9), Williams 400X (Emaj9, D6), Sierra Olympic 12 (C6add9), Sierra Laptop 8 (D13), Fender Stringmaster (E13, A6), Roland Handsonic, Line6 Variax (coming soon)

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 26 Jan 2003 2:54 pm

I just rented a Traynor all tube amp rated at 80 watts with 2 12 inch speakers and it sounds very sweet. It has an XLR line out. I put a little in the moniters and it sounded great. Mind you, I was in a band that keeps the volume low. It would be worth renting to see if it works for you. I paid 40 dollars canadian to rent it for the month,
-Andy[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 26 January 2003 at 02:55 PM.]
PS It sells for $855.00 Canadian[This message was edited by Andy Greatrix on 27 January 2003 at 08:26 AM.]

Stephen Gambrell · Post by **Stephen Gambrell** » 27 Jan 2003 12:29 pm

Oh, Goody! Another satisfied Traynor user shows up! Andy, I've got one of those amps, with 4 10's, and it is as clean as anybody'd ever need. And I think the 80 watt rating is a little bit conservative, but at any rate, it's a great value, great tone amp.

TonyL · Post by **TonyL** » 28 Jan 2003 11:59 am

Has anyone tried one of the newer Traynor 40 watt / single 12 combos? How do they compare to the Fender Deluxe reissues?

T

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 28 Jan 2003 1:05 pm

I copied this question to a new thread to try to get some wider feedback on it.

Why not run stereo into a small tube bass amp and a small tube lead guitar amp? Here's a thought I just had while browsing through the amp section of my local Guitar Center megastore (which has no amps or anything else remotely related to steel, but dozens of everything else at all prices). Since most of the volume/distortion/head room problems with tube amps come from the lower tones, why not run stereo out of your volume pedal (most have two outs) into both a bass guitar tube amp with a 15" (or maybe two 12s), and into a lead guitar tube amp (with one or two 12s). The bass amp will be voiced to filter out the highs, but even a 50 watter will probably give as much undistorted low end sound as a Peavey Nashville 400, and more than a Fender Twin Reverb. If you dial back the lows on the lead amp, a 50 watter will probably give as much high end as you ever use on a typical steel guitar amp (doesn't everyone dial the highs back considerably). It would all be tube sound (there are dozens and dozens of old and new small and mid-size tube amps out there at low to moderate prices).

You could probably use combo bass and lead amps, each of which alone would be smaller and much lighter than a Nashville 400 or a Fender Twin. Even if you had to go to 100 watts in each, you'd still be doing pretty good in the size and weight department. For power beyond that (hard to imagine), you could break it up by using amp heads and separate cabinets.

Any effects packages would have to have two channels, or if you use multiple settings for steel, you might want to put in a two channel preamp to coordinate the settings. There's plenty of good cheap stuff out there to do any of that.

The point is, by going this route you bypass the low sales volume, hard-to-find and expensive specialty amps for steel, and tap into the mass market of inexpensive, small, light bass and lead guitar amps. It would mean one or two more trips back and forth to your van, but one of these regular amps in each hand might be easier to handle than the Peavey steel combos or a Twin Reverb.

Anyone ever tried anything like this? Anyone see any technical problems?

------------------
Student of the Steel, and cheap instrument connoisseur: customized 1970 Sho-Bud Maverick, Fessy S12U, Emmons S12 E9 P/P, Nashville 400, Fender Squire, Peavey Transtube Supreme into JBL 15", 1968 Gibson J50, '60s Kay arch-top, 7-string Raybro, customized Korean Regal square-neck, roundneck Dobro 90C, 1938 Conn Chu Berry tenor sax, '50s Berg mouthpiece, Hamilton upright piano. You make it, I'll play it (more or less)

[This message was edited by David Doggett on 29 January 2003 at 10:45 AM.]

Waisznor · Post by **Waisznor** » 30 Jan 2003 6:02 am

I guess, I have one of those tubeamps you are searching for. It is a Palmer -Model Three- handwired tubeamp made in Germany about 1980. The price in those days was over $ 2000.

Details:
100/50 Watt, 220/110 Volt
Power tubes: 2 x 6550
Preamp tubes: 2 x ECC 81
1 x ECC 82
2 x ECC 83
2 exellent and big transformers
Speaker: EV 15L

Clean Mode/Frontpanel:
-Preamp with Pull-EQ
-Master with Pull-Boost
-EQ: Treble/Bass/Middle/Presence

Hot Mode/Frontpanel:
-Preamp 1 with Pull-Boost
-Preamp 2 with Pull-Bright
-Master with Pull-EQ
-EQ: Treble/Bass/Middle/Presence

-Reverb (long spring reverb for both channels)

-Graphic-EQ (80/250/800/2500/600Hz)
-Power- and Standby-switch

Back-Panel:
-2 Fuseholders AC/HT
-Voltcontrol (220/110 Volt)
-Halfpower-switch
-Speakerimpedance-switch (8/4 Ohm)
-2 Speakerjacks (Internal/Extension)
-Adjustable Line-Out (+ 6 dB max.)
-2 adjustable Effect-Loops Clean/Hot (send/return-controls)
- Reverb-Balance-Control (Ch.1/Ch.2)
-Remote-controls for
Mode (channel)
EQ
Reverb
Volume-Pedal (I use only two cords: one from the Steel to the front-input and one from the volumepedal-Out to the pedaljack on the back-panel)

The amp looks very pretty: white Tolex with a chrome-grill. I use it only at home for practice because it is too heavy with the flightcase. For clubs and other places I use my Webb-amp.

Horst

Mike Brown · Post by **Mike Brown** » 30 Jan 2003 12:55 pm

I'm glad that y'all are having this discussion.

Kevin Hatton · Post by **Kevin Hatton** » 30 Jan 2003 2:54 pm

He said Webb.

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 31 Jan 2003 6:00 am

I'm glad that Mike Brown is listening to this discussion

Seriously, though, it's good to see someone from a major mfr is even entertaining the idea of a tube steel amp. If Peavey would produce one, granted they could sell it for about what the parts would cost me build a handmade one, it would be cool in that the more people using it the merrier. I've never felt threatened in the amp business by the major manufactureres, since the markets would be different --- lets use guitar player analogies -- the same guy would would buy a Dumble or Victoria etc would not entertain the thoughts of owning a Peavey or a new Crate, Fender or Marshall. Likewise the amateur/semi-pro etc would not want to put the $$ into a boutique amp, but would rather have an off-the shelf amp for many reasons--hence different markets.

What I'm gathering so far is that yes, it would be cool to have, but a good number of guys would be put off by the weight of the amp. The cost issue would be minor, but from what I'm figuring out, I could do a 100w version for about $1500, and at that I would be making very little, going up from there the price would be incremental.

Features would include:
-2 x 6550/KT88 power section
-Traditional passive type tone controls w/ mid-shift
- Tube buffered efx loop (no cost), or tube spring reverb (add $100 for the 'verb', and possibly lose the efx loop, or keep the loop for another $15).
- Transformer coupled balanced output
- Head version or combo w/ 15" Eminence driver
- all hand-wired, true point to point wiring
- Since all amps would be custom made, the design could be tweaked to your specs.

I've opted for the 'more is less' design (i.e. choice of efx loop OR reverb-- figuring, if you are using the amp reverb,then you most likely would nto be uusing a profex or other processor, likewise, if you are using efx, then why have 2 reverbs -- i.e. added weight, source of noise, more tubes etc).

I'm working out the design details as we speak, and should be starting with a lower wattage prototype by the end of the next week or so (like 25 watts usign 6v6g6t, into a 12" driver -- once I get the preamp and phase inverter where I like it, tweaking the output section for different wattages would be nothing).

Mike Brown · Post by **Mike Brown** » 31 Jan 2003 7:15 am

The reason that I'm glad that this discussion is happening is because I have had many, many players request that we design an all tube steel amp. We can do it without a doubt, and most likely offer it at a reasonable price, but the participants in this post are bringing to light the very points that I have been stating...............mainly about the weight factor.

Designing an amplifier is no great feat as it is done by musical instrument companies everyday. The "feat" is to offer a good quality product at a reasonable cost.

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 31 Jan 2003 8:52 am

Mike, several people have said a 100 watt tube amp gives more volume than a 100 watt solid state amp. I thought a watt was a watt. What's your take on that?

As for the weight problem, the only thing I can figure is to break it up into multiple packages. Instead of a 60 LB. 200 watt amp, we should just play through two 30 pound 100 watt amps. Also, if a combo is going to go over about 30 lbs., then an amp head and separate speaker cabinet is called for. Another thing to think about, especially for heavy combos, is built in dolly wheels and telescoping handle, like airport luggage.

Dan Tyack · Post by **Dan Tyack** » 31 Jan 2003 9:59 am

I have two of what I considered to be 'ultimate' tube steel amps. One is a blackface Showman which has been modified to sound more like a 'blond' Showman. The other is a THD BiValve, which isn't specifically built for steel, but is very, very flexible in terms of configuration. You can put pretty much any kind of power amp tube in the guy, and mix different types as well. With a 12au7 tube in the first preamp slot, and either a pair of KT88s or a KT88 and an old Tung Sol 5881 (a 6L6 type), and plugging into the clean input, you get a huge, very clean but complex tone. And you can also plug into the high gain input and still rock out as much as I would ever care to. It's loud enough for most gigs I do.

I'm not sure I would buy a dedicated tube steel amp, because I like to have a more 'guitaristic' tone on tap as well. For me the key is having a flexible tube guitar amp. Note that most of the modern guitar amps don't really fit the bill, because they are designed around high gain preamp stages. The BiValve is cool, because the low gain input simply bypassess one of the gain stages.

In terms of the question about 'watts are watts', the answer is that you need much lower watt rating for a tube amp. Although counter intuative, the reason for this is that tube amps sound great as they approach their rated power output (albeit with distortion), whereas transistor amps sound like crap when they get any where close to their rated power output. So you need way more power than you 'need' with a transistor amp to avoid any distortion from the power amp stage. The rule of thumb is that you want to have a tube amp that is just powerful enough to cut the gig (but no more), but you want as powerful a transistor amp as you can afford (and can stand to carry).

I have no doubt that Peavey would do a great job on a tube steel amp, but might do better to build a tube guitar amp with a great deal of attention to clean tones (with input from steel players, not just from what guitar players consider to be clean). Another thing to consider is building a 'hybrid' amp with a tube preamp and low power single ended class A power section (similar to the THD Univalve) mated with a light weight digital power amp. I used this configuration for years with a THD Univalve into a MossValve power amp (the Univalve or BiValve has a built in speaker attenuator, so it doesn't need to drive a speaker). This kind of setup gives most of the sound of a tube amp, with as much power as anybody would need.

------------------
www.tyack.com

Gino Iorfida · Post by **Gino Iorfida** » 31 Jan 2003 11:19 am

A watt IS a Watt, however,
When solid state reaches it's max power, it clips. rather abrubtly, and HARSHLY, whereas when tubes are reaching their max. power, they start to compress the signal, transient attacks that would push the amp beyond the max power are limited by the inefficiencies in the power supply, limiting that attack (much like a certain mfr's a well known and loved solid state steel amp has built in limiting), after which the amp now rebounds and can reproduce the subtler passages.

Not to mention, when the amp does start to 'clip', it doesnt happenas abrubtly, but more subtly, with an increased and very MUSICAL harmonic content

Mike-- I agree that it would be VERY hard to produce a good tube amp for steel at a very affordable price, I have a strong suspicion that given the already small market for PSG amplifiers in general (Other than Peavey, which is IMHO the only commercially produced steel amp made, you have the Webb and Evans which to me are more 'boutique' amps-- rather like the Dumbles of the 6 string world

, that we wont be seeing a commercial tube based PSG amp in the near future...

Michael Holland · Post by **Michael Holland** » 31 Jan 2003 11:35 am

Yes, they weigh a ton, but sound like heaven!

My Mesa combos.

James Quackenbush · Post by **James Quackenbush** » 1 Feb 2003 7:02 am

Since your tone is shaped more by the preamp section of an amplifier, why not just build a nice quality tube preamp, with 2 channels, and an EQ section on each, with one that will cater to pedal steel, and one to cater to guitar...Effects loop and or reverb also...
Have high and low sensitivity inputs on both channels...This could be used with just about any amplifier that people already own..People would also have a choice if they wanted to buy a Solid State power amp, or a tube power amp to power the pre...It would be light weight, with heavy weight tone !!...Jim