Does music really change over time?

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 25 Dec 2006 1:36 pm

There is truth in what most all have said. Besides the different generations, each decade brings something the other did not have, like millions more people on earth and conditions that many of the older generation never had to grow up with. That said, my personal view is that screaming into a microphone about killing cops and whores and bitches, etc, also seems like a bit further down the road of degeneration even if you are trying to keep up with the times. If shaking your hips like Elvis was the Devils music, then what the heck would we call some of what is out there now on CD's?[This message was edited by Gary Lynch on 25 December 2006 at 01:47 PM.]

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 25 Dec 2006 1:45 pm

I agree totally with what Les Anderson says above. Most of today's music has little to no identifiable melody. I often watch Letterman and then switch to Late Night with Conan.

Both shows often feature new groups or artists. I have seen LOTS and LOTS of new acts on both shows, but within the last 10 years or so, I have NEVER seen a single act for which I was able to hum the melody. In fact most of the time I can't even figure out what the melody IS.

Furthermore,I believe music has changed a lot recently. In addition to not having much melody, the music seems to be over-produced. There's no edgy-ness of the old music.

In fact (and I've mentioned this here before) if you listen to a lot of the rock and country recordings from the 60's you'll find that in many of them, not all the instruments hit every beat together. This not only give the music that "edgy" feel, but in my opinion it actually gives it more "life" or whatever you want to call it.

By contrast, most of the new recordings nowadays sound like they've been WAY over produced and almost sound artificial and/or totally computer-generated.

john lemay · Post by **john lemay** » 25 Dec 2006 1:50 pm

Hate Beak It's the end of civilization as we know it!!
This was done tongue in cheek but I can't tell it from the "real" thing. A parrot singing death metal!!! http://www.reptilianrecords.com/reptilian/hatebeek.html

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Carter D-10, 8+5. Nashville 400 with LeMay Mod (of course!) and DD3

Les Green · Post by **Les Green** » 25 Dec 2006 7:14 pm

Take any so called "hit" from the last 5 years, then ask yourself, will this song still be around 50 or 75 years from now as loads of the old standards are? I doubt it. As for me I'll stick with my moldy, oldies.[This message was edited by les green on 25 December 2006 at 07:17 PM.]

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 25 Dec 2006 9:11 pm

NO ONE will change my opinion[and yes EVERY ONE is entitled to their own]about the absurd s*^% that is called music today[not all but the majority of it].I agree with one of the posts above,will any of this so-called music you here today be around 30,40,or 50 years from now,HELL NO!I'm sure there are lots of old geezers like myself out there that was exposed to REAL MUSIC such as Charlie Parker,Charlie Christian,Brubeck,Stan Getz,and other jazz greats,Glenn Miller,The Dorseys,etc,the big band greats,Buddy Holly,Chuck Berry,The Drifters,The Platters,and all the Do-Wop groups that had beautiful harmonies,then the great country artists such as Hank Snow,Eddy Arnold,Patsy Cline,Ray Price,people that could ACTUALLY sing on key and did'nt need cheap theatrics such as smashing guitars,trilling mike stands,and elaborate light shows to take the audiences attention away from the FACT that they really suck.How long has it been since a writer has written any thing with a great lyric AND a great melody such as Phoenix,Moon River,or even I'm so lonesome I could Cry?Also someone mentioned the other day how much he could'nt stand a country singer sing with a heavy southern drawl with a break in his voice,I guess this explains why HANK WILLIAMS SR.never made it.But I guarantee that Your Cheating Heart will still be playing years from now when such crap as Bo-donk-a donk won't even be a memory.

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 25 Dec 2006 9:33 pm

Also someone mentioned the other day how much he could'nt stand a country singer sing with a heavy southern drawl with a break in his voice

are you talking about Garth Brooks?

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 25 Dec 2006 10:32 pm

Tom,I think that fits Hank Sr.best.Maybe that southern drawl and the yodel in his voice is the reason he NEVER made it.

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 25 Dec 2006 10:34 pm

Maybe if we wanted to talk about changes in music rather than a degeneration of our society, we should try comparing maybe Wagner, Puccini and Stravinski to Palestrina and Corelli. That was on the other side of the curve. Music definitely changes. Sometimes for the better.

Leslie Ehrlich · Post by **Leslie Ehrlich** » 25 Dec 2006 10:44 pm

That was me. I was complaining about contemporary male country singers who sing with an exaggerated southern drawl. I believe this began with Randy Travis.

As far as rock music goes, what I've really noticed is that with each succeeding generation it has become more important to be 'cool'. 'Cool' is not an image, it's an attitude. The musicians show no feeling, very little expression, they have an 'in group' vs. 'out group' mentality, they wear their street clothes when they perform, they make a big noise to give the listener the impression they're 'tough' or 'macho', and so on.

I suppose rebelliousness factors into being 'cool', but I can't figure out what today's rock bands are rebelling against. Sure, it has all the trappings of an 'us vs. them' movement, but I wonder if the current generation of rockers knows who 'they' are?

Charles Davidson · Post by **Charles Davidson** » 25 Dec 2006 11:08 pm

Leslie,You are absolutely right about the rock music.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 25 Dec 2006 11:45 pm

There is certainly some dreck out there,
but I think yes there are some songs that will last.

Especially from the female rockers/songwriters.
The most memorable songs, for me, the last 10 years
are from the ladies.

At any given period there are few classics written,
they just aren't neccesarily getting TV play latter on,
in favor of the new artists the labels are trying to put over.

Steve Hinson · Post by **Steve Hinson** » 26 Dec 2006 3:58 am

Leslie,I have been listening to Randy Travis sing for almost 25 years...could you name a song where he"sings with an exaggerated southern drawl"?Just one...please...thank you.

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http://home.comcast.net/~steves_garage

David Mason · Post by **David Mason** » 26 Dec 2006 4:18 am

Finding music that really, really pissed off your parents has always been a huge factor in adolescent tastes. The problem is, when your boomie parents grew up taking drugs, worshipping Satan with Black Sabbath & Led Zeppelin and celebrating rampant promiscuity with the Rolling Stones, how far do you have to go to shock them?

Marilyn Manson couldn't get a hit record for years - he tried joining the Church of Satan, slashing himself with broken bottles, dumping pig guts from the slaughterhouse on his audience, all that old 70's schtick - the parents just didn't care. He finally hit the big time when he started writing songs telling little kids to take drugs, and the parents hit the ceiling and forbade their children to listen - instant million-seller, there.

Bob Carlucci · Post by **Bob Carlucci** » 26 Dec 2006 6:05 am

I can't believe some of my friends here are defending the garbage todays youth listen to... I hear it all the time as I am around school kids every day driving a school bus.. The most common themes are

1.. violence against and disrespect for women,
2..violence against ANY authority... read again.. violence.. NOT protest as it was back in my day...
3 Glorifying violent gangs...

4 Hedonism as a desirable lifstyle

5 Racism
etc etc..

The music of past generations did not use words like "Bitch" "HO" or "Niggah" in EVERY sentence.. nor did it advocate the use of women as sex slaves to be roughly used and slapped around if they were sexually unsatisfactory.. Todays rap is FULL of this crap... I hear the words and they scare me... jeez, I hear 11 year old girls in pig tails singing this stuff.. kids that live on farms as well as inner city kids...

I have a unique perspective as the area I work goes from all black inner city housing projects , then 2 miles in any direction and I am driving through dairy farms and beautiful lakeside vinyards and quaint wineries... the music is the same however..

C'mon guys,this stuff is poison,

,
I can envision listening to Teach Your Children , Have You ever Seen the Rain, or Rambling Man in my 60's...
Can you envision a 60 year old man taking his grandson fishing, turning on the radio and listening to Marilyn Manson or ANY "gansta rap" "song"... THAT is what our children and grandchildren will listen to in their retirement... Angry,hateful,malevolent garbage that glorifies hedonism and violence... I for one am just a bit afraid from what I see and hear of this ""music""... bob[This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 26 December 2006 at 06:11 AM.][This message was edited by Bob Carlucci on 26 December 2006 at 06:18 AM.]

Gary Lynch · Post by **Gary Lynch** » 26 Dec 2006 6:48 am

Because of the large amount of money there potentially is to be had from CD sales these days, promoters have zeroed in on what they can sell to any one large group in our society. It shows the taste of the masses are not particularly interested in the quality of the music like a musician would be. There is still some great music and writing taking place, but a large amount of interest and successful sales goes to the over produced gimmick styles the masses are being fed and apparently enjoy. Music is an art form that reflects all the facets of our society. It can provide pleasure or cause the listener to become angry. The producers, the promoters, and the artist claim their hate oriented music is just expression and has no real effect on the listener. If that were really true we would not see television commercials pounding sound and visuals in our face repeatedly to help sell a product or ad campaigns and also political campaigns doing much of the same. Our daily lives seem to be moving faster and have become more complicated with each passing year. Music has always been used as a tool. From military marching bands to rally the troops to fine crafted melodies to seduce a maiden. Just think what we will be hearing on the radio (if there is a radio) in another ten years!

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 26 Dec 2006 8:11 am

Here's a rock song I can find myself humming.
It uses the B word, and is quite direct,
but she really makes great points.

Artist: Alanis Morissette
Song: I'm A Bitch I'm A Lover

I hate the world today
You're so good to me I know but I can't change
I tried to tell you but you look at me like maybe
I'm an angel underneath; innocent and sweet
Yesterday I cried; Must've been relief to see the softer side
I can undertsand how you'd be so confused
I don't envy you; I'm a little bit of everything
all rolled into one
I'm a bitch I'm a lover
I'm a child I'm a mother
I'm a sinner I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell I'm your dream
I'm nothing in between
you know you wouldn't want it any other way

So take me as I am
This might mean you'll have to be a stronger man
Rest assured that when I start to make you nervous
I'm going to extremes; Tomorrow I will change
And today won't mean a thing

I'm a bitch I'm a lover
I'm a child I'm a mother
I'm a sinner I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell I'm your dream
I'm nothing in between
you know you wouldn't want it any other way

Musical Break

Just when you think, you got me figured out
The season's already changin'
I think it's cool; you do what you do
And don't try to save me

I'm a bitch I'm a lover
I'm a child I'm a mother
I'm a sinner I'm a saint
I do not feel ashamed
I'm your hell I'm your dream
I'm nothing in between
you know you wouldn't want it any other way

I'm a bitch, I'm a tease
I'm a goddess on my knees
When you hurt; when you suffer
I'm your angel undercover
I've been numb; I'm revived
Can't say I'm not alive
You know I wouldn't want it any other way

__________________________
She is eloquently saying
I am not a characture,
I am many faceted,
accept me as I am.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 26 December 2006 at 08:12 AM.]

Tom Olson · Post by **Tom Olson** » 26 Dec 2006 9:38 am

I like that song too, but I didn't know it was Alanis Morrisette. I agree that some of the best material in the last 10 years or so has been by the fairer gendered singers.

Mat Rhodes · Post by **Mat Rhodes** » 26 Dec 2006 10:05 am

David,

I don't mean to nitpick, but the artist is Meredith Brooks, not Alanis Morisette. But they sure sound alike.

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Matt
<img width=90 src=http://mywebsite.register.com/db2/00180 ... CN0534.JPG>

Bryan Bradfield · Post by **Bryan Bradfield** » 26 Dec 2006 10:48 am

Don't go looking in a spot where you know the music you miss is not going to be. The style most of you are talking about still exists, in a minor way, with independent artists, on independent labels.

My listening tastes are currently running towards avant-garde music and free jazz. I suppose by definition, the best of these genres exists today, and so I'm enjoying a wide variety of current recordings. And, the recordings are on independent, small labels that I have to search for. I for sure don't find them in Wal-Mart, etc.

I know that I am not going to find this stuff on the radio, so I don't try, although I have found it on internet radio, Jazz on 3, with host Jez Jones:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/listen/

David Doggett · Post by **David Doggett** » 26 Dec 2006 11:57 am

I remember once in college, in the middle of some somber preachy speech by the college president, the PA system started picking up a country music radio station. The prez. made some derogatory remark about that not being music. His remark said more to me about his narrow arrogance, prejudice and ignorance, than about the music. The same can be said for the usual “not music” remarks from the usual sources here on the Forum. It just seems a little blind when country musicians deride other ethnic genres, while their own genre is probably the most disliked and ridiculed genre in popular music. Music is both melody and rhythm – sometimes more one than the other, sometimes a nice blend. It’s all music. No one has the right to define what is music for everyone else.

As for the lyrics, a lot of the modern lyrics are trashy and about trashy subjects. But a lot of classic country was about drinking, cheating, guns and fists, prison, and other trashy stuff. The lyrics in popular music reflect the cultural battles that are going on in society: violence vs. civility, primitive sex vs. Puritanism, crass materialism vs. benevolent spirituality, youthful rebellion vs. the stodgy ways of the elders, black culture vs. white culture, the battle of the sexes…and on and on. And it has always been so. Think of all the old murder ballads. Talk about violence against women, listen to “Knoxville Girl” or “Pretty Polly.” And if you want crime, listen to some of the old pirate ballads such as “Henry Martin” and “the Coast of High Barbary.”

For all the trashy songs out there, there are also songs that counter that, even in rap. There is a huge cultural battle raging right now in the black community. If you want to believe it is all nasty trash, you are simply showing your own lack of knowledge of what’s out there. A while back I was struck by the Black Eyed Peas hip hop hit “Where is the Love?” – gorgeous progression, beautiful melody, and good sentiments in the lyrics. I think we all tend to ignore the fact that we have such a huge smorgasbord of music out there today. The same people that listen to gangsta rap also make popular hits of things like Cion Deon’s “Time Will Go On,” which is easily a classic for all time. There are still beautiful classics being made – they’re just diluted by all the other stuff out there, the same as always. We remember the classics from past eras, but not the dregs. But it does seem like the dilution factor has gotten bigger. There is just so much stuff out there now that we are constantly bombarded with. There are more genres and subgenres of music, more radio stations, more TV channels, more sources to get music, more “hits,” that last a shorter and shorter length of time.

It does seem like we are in a downward spiral of intentionally offensive stuff in both the sounds and the lyrics. It makes one wonder where it will all lead to. But if you look back at the past, there is so much that just seems simple, silly, dull, and hokey today. What seem like classics for some older people are just laughed at by some younger people. Does music change? Do our perceptions change? Yes and yes. Sometimes for the good, sometimes not, in both cases.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Dec 2006 12:06 am

Matt I have seen it's writing attributed to BOTH of them.
Welcome to the net. I most hear it on radio, but always want it turned up.

Alanis site won't come up for me right now.

In any case a really fine song,
that defined the ear for a lot of women.

David L. Donald · Post by **David L. Donald** » 27 Dec 2006 12:07 am

Matt I have seen it's writing attributed to BOTH of them.
Welcome to the net. I most hear it on radio, but always want it turned up.

Alanis site won't come up for me right now.

In any case a really fine song,
that defined the year for a lot of women.[This message was edited by David L. Donald on 27 December 2006 at 11:37 AM.]

Edward Meisse · Post by **Edward Meisse** » 27 Dec 2006 12:30 am

Tom,
Your final comment was less than fair to the less fair gender. More or less.

Ray Minich · Post by **Ray Minich** » 27 Dec 2006 11:28 am

Every generation has to do stuff more outrageous than the previous in order to make their point and cement their spot in history.

Al Collinsworth · Post by **Al Collinsworth** » 27 Dec 2006 7:04 pm