1,3,5 I-iv-v

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 6 Dec 2000 11:32 am

Well... this may be way too abstract a question to answer, but lately I've been bothered by the following:

When a string is picked, you hear the fundamental, after which the most prominent tone is the octave harmonic, then the fifth, then the third. So we build a major chord out of those 1,3 & 5 scale tones.

When building songs, it's most common to use the I & V chords, but also the IV chord. How come the IV chord sounds so right? How did THAT get in there? Wouldn't logic dictate that it would be the iii chord, since the 3 tone is such a strong harmonic, and we've built the tonic chord out of the 1, the 3 and the 5 ? Why does the IV chord fit so well?

Does this question make any sense?

GV[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 06 December 2000 at 11:33 AM.]

Jim Smith · Post by **Jim Smith** » 6 Dec 2000 1:11 pm

The way I understand it is that it's because of Tetra Chords, which opened my improvisation skills a lot when I learned about them.

They show the relationship between I-IV-V (C-F-G in this example.) The first four notes of a C scale (C-D-E-F) are the same as the last four notes of an F scale and the last four notes of a C scale (G-A-B-C) are the same as the first four notes of a G scale.

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 6 Dec 2000 1:13 pm

Hey! Thanks Jim! This is starting to make sense!

GV

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 6 Dec 2000 2:14 pm

My thoughts on this are totally made up--just impressions--

you could eliminate the IV quite often, or substitute the V for it. The result would be very stripped down, musically, but it would make some degree of phrasing sense. From this I derive that the IV (sub-dominant) note is the b7 of the V and the IV chord is something of a substitute chord for the V--what could you call a IV7? A V 9 11 b13?
Is this too silly?

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 6 Dec 2000 2:55 pm

You're right Jon. And a lot of really cool songs feature only the I & the V (Jambalaya, Tonight the Bottle Let Me Down, Guitars Cadillacs).

Who needs the IV? (kidding

)

GV

Bill C. Buntin · Post by **Bill C. Buntin** » 6 Dec 2000 6:04 pm

Greg, another thought is the IV and the V steps of a major diatonic scale, have perfect harmony with the tonic note. Jim, I agree with you.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 6 Dec 2000 8:05 pm

IMO: If the I and V is natural (to our ear), that automatically makes the I to IV movement (up a fourth) a natural too, as it takes a movement of a fourth to get from the V back to the I.
Also, the I, II-, III-, IV, V, and VI- are all basic chords that can be formed with the basic scale notes (Do, Re, Mi, Fa.... ) of the I.
However, I believe that in today's music, it's not so much about a chord's position in the order of a progression anymore, but many times, just about the intervals from chord to chord. An approach which can lead to a succession of smooth, almost unnoticeable changes of keyes, if you will. In other words, sometimes if you get from a chord to an other, the way how you did it can almost mandate going to a preset next chord. But sometimes, the doors seem to be open just a little wider and there's one or two other options for the next chord that would seem to feel good too... and all of a sudden, just like in a twilight day dream, one slips into something that goes further and further away from where one would think he was/is...
To me some of Jerry Byrd's later music is a good example of that phenomenon. And then, there's Smethana and Gershwin...

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Dave Van Allen · Post by **Dave Van Allen** » 7 Dec 2000 7:16 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>... lot of really cool songs feature only the I & the V (Jambalaya, Tonight the Bottle Let Me Down, Guitars Cadillacs).

Who needs the IV?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well you'd be hard pressed to play Hank Cochran's "A-11" without the IV

it uses a similar principal of tension and release yet uses the IV instead of the V for a two chord structure, alternating twixt the IV and the I. ('cept for Paycheck's arr. which throws in a bizarre semi chromatic chordal descent to the V at the end of the turnarounds and choruses)

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 7 Dec 2000 10:37 am

You're right, Dave, A11 is a GREAT SONG!

And it's just I & IV!

We play that song a lot in my band (we like
the easy stuff

)

I'm also reminded of a song from a few years back by a band out here called Jane's Addiction. The song, "Jane Says", seemed to use only the IV & the V chords --never going to the I! It was on the radio all the time back then and was actually quite well done.

Can a chord progression get any simpler than that and still be called a song? Are there any one chord songs? Excluding weird experimental stuff & hip-hop, can you write a C&W or pop song of any quality using LESS than two chords?

Just throwing that out there for fun

GV[This message was edited by Greg Vincent on 07 December 2000 at 10:54 AM.]

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 7 Dec 2000 12:32 pm

Hip-hop usually has less than one chord.

J D Sauser · Post by **J D Sauser** » 7 Dec 2000 12:36 pm

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 7 Dec 2000 2:53 pm

Using the major triads in the I, IV and V chords you have all the notes of a major scale:
C major- C , E, G
F major- F ,A , C
G Major- G , B, D

without the 4 chord you do not have a direct chordal harmony for the 4th degree of the scale ( F ) or the 6th (A ).

There are forms of music based on overtone relationships that do not involve chordal harmony. Many eastern traditional forms and my personal fav Harry Partch.

I'm convinced that spending too much time dealing with diatonic song forms (singer songwriter, country and pop type stuff) is starting to rot my brain !

Bob

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 7 Dec 2000 4:11 pm

Bob,

Thanks for that great explanation. That makes a lot of sense --so it's no wonder so many songs feature the I, IV & V. I find this stuff fascinating!

I hope I never grow tired of chordal harmony.
I simply can't believe that there are no worthwhile avenues left in diatonic music.
Going microtonal almost seems like "giving up" to me, in a way.

(That's just my feeling, and I am by no means a scholar in the area of diatonic, 12 tone or microtonal music. I'm just following what my ears tell me!

)

GV

Bengt Erlandsen · Post by **Bengt Erlandsen** » 7 Dec 2000 4:39 pm

When going from I to IV. Example C to F.
Look at Jim's post about tetrachords.
The C will be the V of the Fmajor scale. which is why we often see C / / C7 F / / / in the key of C . This part is treated as a V7 to I. Maybe that is one of the reasons the F sounds good in the key of C ?

Bengt

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 7 Dec 2000 11:25 pm

Play a pedals down C chord at the 3rd fret. Do the slide down 2 fret move to C7.
Now on the 1st fret play only the 8 st (lever in) and 6th string (B pedal in).
That is your tri tone interval. let off your lever and the leading tone E moves up naturally to your new root note F. Let off your pedal and your 7th of C7 lowers to the 3rd of your new chord.

If you look for the tri tone interval in your 7th chords and notice how it resolves you have found one of the biggest parts of what makes most all of the music we listen to and play.

<pre>

st6 3B 1B 1
7
8 3 1L 1
9
10 3A
C C7 F
</pre>

Bob[This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 07 December 2000 at 11:27 PM.][This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 07 December 2000 at 11:28 PM.][This message was edited by Bob Hoffnar on 07 December 2000 at 11:30 PM.]

Jake Doell · Post by **Jake Doell** » 8 Dec 2000 12:23 am

Most of what you guys are talking about is over my head,but it reminds me of playing a button accordian when I was a kid.You only had two chords and I guess the same thing
applies on a blues harp.Very interesting thread.Jake Doell in Vancouver.

nick allen · Post by **nick allen** » 8 Dec 2000 4:17 am

One-chord songs:
Who Do You Love
Clyde Played Electric Bass (J.J. Cale) - OK, he puts another chord in between the verses, but that was just to loosen up his hand...
Waylon's "Did Hank Really Do It This Way" was also just I and IV.

nick

John Paul Jones · Post by **John Paul Jones** » 8 Dec 2000 9:30 am

Start with the three notes that make up a major chord in any key chord, 1-3-5.

Now advance each note to the next higher scale interval. (For numbers 8 and over subtract the number 7 to get the lower scale equivelant) you have: 1-3-5, 2-4-6, 3-5-7, 4-6-1, 5-7-2, 6-1-3, 7-2-4, 1-3-5.

You have created a scale using triad chords. The chords are; I (1-3-5). ii (2-4-6), iii (3-5-7), IV (4-6-1), V (5-7-2), vi (6-1-3), VIIdim (7-2-4), then I (1-3-5) again.

That's; I, ii, iii, IV. V, vi, IVdim, and I.

Notice that there are only three major chords in a chorded scale, I, IV, and V. That's why, when playing major chords, these three are the most melodic, therefore the most used.

John Paul Jones[This message was edited by John Paul Jones on 08 December 2000 at 09:33 AM.][This message was edited by John Paul Jones on 08 December 2000 at 09:36 AM.]

Tony Orth · Post by **Tony Orth** » 8 Dec 2000 10:26 am

Hey guys,

Another one chord song:
Wilson Picketts "Land of 1000 Dances"
Most often done in E...People will always dance to this one.

Na....Na Na Na Na...

Steel Rockin' in Evansville

Greg Vincent · Post by **Greg Vincent** » 8 Dec 2000 10:37 am

Excellent stuff!

1.That tri-tone resolve is a very elegant move, which the PSG handles very well.

2."Who Do You Love" is a great example of a darn-near-one-chord (and very popular!) song.
(I think it flirts with the IV or uses a sus4
or something)

3.The fact that the I, IV, & V are the only diatonic triads that come out major is a good point which helps explain the prominence of the IV chord in western music.

4. The fact that the 1-4 interval is an inversion of the 1-5 interval (and both are "perfect" intervals --not flip-flopping from major to minor when you invert them) also underlines the "naturalness" of the IV chord.

This is great stuff, none of which had really "clicked" in my mind before.

Thanks guys!

GV

Martin Abend · Post by **Martin Abend** » 8 Dec 2000 6:32 pm

Janes Addiction were quite cool.

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Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 10 Dec 2000 11:38 pm

I'm convinced that spending too much time dealing with diatonic song forms (singer songwriter, country and pop type stuff) is starting to rot my brain !

What are the chord changes to "Happy Birthday"?