lydian chromatic

ebb · Post by **ebb** » 22 Sep 2000 3:24 pm

anyone else work through this. i remeber PF did at one time. George Russell is teaching at the New England consv.

Susan Alcorn · Post by **Susan Alcorn** » 22 Sep 2000 8:15 pm

I played through it years ago and found it to be of (for me) limited use. Perhaps though that's just in the way I relate to theories. To learn how to improvise like Ornette Coleman, I found it better to just listen to Ornette Coleman, listen to "Thurd Stream", Charles Mingus, etc. and thus become familiar with their different concepts of tonality and tonal gravity. That book is a lot of work. If you're playing through it, best of luck.

Susan

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 22 Sep 2000 11:20 pm

What is lydian chromatic?

Susan Alcorn · Post by **Susan Alcorn** » 23 Sep 2000 5:54 am

"The Lydian Chromatic Concept" . . . is a book put out by George Russel It uses the Lydian scale as a springborad for jazz improvization.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Sep 2000 3:44 pm

Uh, okay, but ... what's a lydian scale?

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 24 Sep 2000 4:04 pm

Unless this book calls it something else that I don't know about the Lydian scale is a major scale with a #4.

Think white keys on a piano starting on F.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 24 Sep 2000 9:16 pm

I've never used that scale. Is it common in jazz?

P Gleespen · Post by **P Gleespen** » 25 Sep 2000 1:45 am

The Lydian-Chromatic concept is kind of interesting to go through particularly if you feel that your improv skills are in a "rut". It's just a different way of looking at chord and scale relationships.
I went through it for a while, but in the end decided it was not what I was looking for. (Just my opinion, of course. I know some great players from New England Conservatory where who swear by that book. I just swear at it!

)

The lydian scale is very common in jazz, although an even more used scale is a lydian flat 7 scale (also can be thought of as a mixolydian scale with a raised 4). One of my professors in college told me that he thought of the lydian scale as a "hyper-major" scale.
It fits in most places that a major scale fits.

Bob Hoffnar · Post by **Bob Hoffnar** » 25 Sep 2000 2:37 am

b0b,
You have used this scale !
Think of that Disney tune "never never land"( verse)
or "Bali Hi"(chorus)
Bob

Missy James · Post by **Missy James** » 25 Sep 2000 4:23 am

Bob - every scale has its own pattern of half steps and whole steps that make it unique. A major (or Ionian) scale is patterned as "whole, whole, half, whole, whole, whole, half". A lydian scale is patterned as "whole, whole, whole, half, whole, whole, half". (There are also Dorian, Phrygian, Mixolydian, Locrian and Aeolian scales.)

The easiest way for me to think about it is to think in terms of key signature. In the F Lydian scale, your key signature is the same as the C Major scale. Just use the same notes as you would for C Major but start and end on "F" and you have your F Lydian scale. If you need another particular scale key signature, just count down one half step and then two whole steps from your scale name and use that new notes' major key signature, but start and end on your original note. Does that make sense?

------------------
I don't drink or lie, but I swear I steel!!

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 25 Sep 2000 8:01 am

I don't play those tunes, Bob, but ... is it the same scale that Chuck Berry used in "Memphis"?

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 25 Sep 2000 8:14 am

b0b,
The Simpson's theme song is based on a lydian chord!

Missy is right on. There are two sorts, one dominant, and one non-dominant. In Missy's example, (F) it's derived from the C major scale. For the dominant version, it's derived from the C melodic minor scale.
Dig Hal Rugg's opening improvisational phrase in his solo on "Relaxin'" from his new CD. Very Lydian. Very Dizzy Gillespie !
-John

John Steele · Post by **John Steele** » 25 Sep 2000 8:32 am

Two examples spring to mind:
(C6) (of course

)
<pre>
"On a Clear Day, you can see Forever"
FM7 Bb7#11
On a clear day,rise and look a- round you
1-----|---------|-----------------|----------
2-----|---------|-----------------|----------
3-----|-5(7-----|-----------------|-5(7------
4-----|-5(7-5(7-|-------------5(7-|-5(7-5(7)-
5----5|-----5---|-5-----5---------|-----5----
6--5--|-5-------|---5-------------|-5(6------
7-----|-----5---|-----------------|-----5----
8-----|---------|-----------------|----------
9-----|---------|-----------------|-5--------
10----|---------|-----------------|----------

and
"Tenderly"
EbM7 Ab7#11 Eb-

1----------|---------------|-------------|---
2----------|---------------|-------------|---
3-------15-|------------15-|-------------|--
4----15----|-15(7----15----|-15(7----7(7-|6(7
5-15-------|-15---15-------|-15---15-----|6--
6----------|---------------|-15(6--------|6--
7----------|-15------------|-------------|6--
8----------|---------------|-------------|6--
9----------|---------------|-15----------|---
10---------|---------------|-------------|---
</pre>
-John
 No relation to "Lydian oh Lydian, have you met Lydian, Lydian the tatooed lady.... " -J[This message was edited by John Steele on 25 September 2000 at 09:37 AM.]

John Kavanagh · Post by **John Kavanagh** » 29 Sep 2000 12:04 pm

I'd like to learn more about the concept.
I had a teacher who called lydian scales the "super-major" scale or something, too. I've always assumed that what's interesting about it melodically is that it contains the major II chord, the V of V (D major in C), so it is unstable and tends to modulate to the dominant key, but it's also very bright-sounding and has two leading tones, one to the 5 of the scale and one to the tonic.

My brain says that it's a concept well worth exploring, because a lot of great players
have found it so. However, on a gut level, I find the lydian scale sort of an obnoxious, brash, sound and find it hard to improvise in for that reason. It's too bright, like the banjo in G tuning. I like the sound of the dorian mode or the mixolydian mode better. So once again I let my ears lead my brain around, and really you have to do that in the end anyway, I guess.

Besides, it sounds like an awful lot of work...

Mike Tatro · Post by **Mike Tatro** » 2 Oct 2000 12:17 pm

Guys, I have the book. I never use it. I will post a "For Sale" ad with a friendly price.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 3 Oct 2000 3:26 pm

So, it's like if you're playing in C at the 3rd fret on the E9th (pedals down position), and you don't lower your second string? The notes C D E F# G A B C?

(When I do that, it sounds like a mistake!)

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 3 Oct 2000 4:16 pm

b0b
It probably wouldn't sound like a mistake if you played it over a D7 chord

Pat Burns · Post by **Pat Burns** » 3 Oct 2000 4:51 pm

From what I'm reading b0b, that would be a mistake...should be F and not F#. In the key of C major there wouldn't be any sharps or flats. The way I've heard this described can be mapped as follows:

All the following are in the C major scale with no sharps or flats:

1-1 C---D---E---F---G---A----B--C
Ionian I II III IV V VI VII I
(Major
Scale)

2-2 D---E---F---G---A---B---C---D
Dorian II III IV V VI VII I II

3-3 E---F---G---A---B---C---D---E
Phrygian III IV V VI VII I II III

4-4 F---G---A---B---C---D---E---F
Lydian IV V VI VII I II III IV

5-5 G---A---B---C---D---E---F---G
Mixo- V VI VII I II III IV V
lydian

6-6 A---B---C---D---E---F---G---A
Aeolian VI VII I II III IV V VI
(Minor
Scale)

7-7 B---C---D---E---F---G---A---B
Locrian VII I II III IV V VI VII

The notes are always exactly the same notes as the C major scale and are in the exact same sequence, just displaced in starting and finishing point.

I've also heard it explained that each one corresponds with a chord in the key:

1-1 with Imaj7 Key of C Cmaj7

2-2 with IIm7 Key of C Dm7

3-3 with IIIm7 Key of C Em7

4-4 with IVmaj7 Key of C Fmaj7

5-5 with V7 Key of C G7

6-6 with VIm7 Key of C Am7

7-7 with VIIo7 Key of C Bo7

That helps me to relate it to the pattern of chords I'm familiar with.

[This message was edited by Pat Burns on 03 October 2000 at 07:33 PM.]

John Kavanagh · Post by **John Kavanagh** » 4 Oct 2000 8:43 am

I think what b0b meant is the Lydian scale starting on C, which is indeed cdef#gabc. A cerebral bebopper, people who kind of scare me, might point out that if you play all the notes of a Cmaj13#11 chord in one octave, it is a complete lydian scale. (Ninth chords kind of imply pentatonic scales, but that's another story)

The 13th chord is as many thirds as you can stack without repeating yourself, and will include all the notes of a diatonic scale. (E13 tuning is missing the 11th, A, but you can lose a few notes and still keep the character of the chord.)

Another way of relating scales and modes is by taking all the possibilities starting on the same note, instead of all the possibilities starting on different notes within one key signature. It still kind of makes my head hurt, and I'm not sure how useful this is, but it's interesting...

SCALE NAME /SCALE/ CHORD / CHORD NAME

C Ionian= CDEFGABC = CEGBDFA = Cmaj13
[C major]

C Dorian = CDEbFGABbC = CEbGBbDFA=Cm13*
[signature of Bb, going 2-2]

CPhrygian=CDbEbFGAbBbC=CEbGBbDbFAb=Cm11b9b13
[signature of Ab, going 3-3]

C Lydian = CDEF#GABC = CEGBDF#A = Cmaj13#11
[signature of G, going 4-4]

C Mixolydian=CDEFGABbC = CEGBbDFA = C13
[signature of F, 5-5]

C Aeolian=CDEbFGABbC=CEbGBbDFAb=Cm11b13? [C natural minor, signature of Eb, 6-6]

And, for the sake of completeness:
CLocrian=CDbEbFbGbAbBbC=CEbGbBbDbFbAb=Cm11b5b9b13flateverything
[signature of Db, 7-7]

I don't know what you'd really call that last chord and I don't care.. The 7th chord built on VII of Db is Cm7b5, or C"half-diminished", usually written Cø7. In the unlikely event I ever wanted to hear the chord above, I'd be inclined to call it a Cø13, or use that good ol' standby C(alt), which seems to mean "you figure it out". If you think the lydian mode sounds like a mistake, try making a nice tune in the locrian mode, my goodness, which is only named (I think) to theoretically round out the system because it's The Scale Too Ugly To Use. The Greeks and monks sure didn't use it.

I'm also not sure if the Cm13 chord is assumed to be built on the Dorian or the minor scale. Dorian, I think. If I saw Cm13 written would I try and add an A or an Ab? hmm. Depend on what key I was in. I thought I knew this stuff, but I guess I don't.

Plus of course there's any number of artificial scales that don't correspond to a "real" key signature. Oy gevalt! [This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 04 October 2000 at 10:11 AM.][This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 04 October 2000 at 10:16 AM.][This message was edited by John Kavanagh on 06 October 2000 at 10:07 AM.]

Mike Tatro · Post by **Mike Tatro** » 5 Oct 2000 9:33 am

I'd just like to add to John K's comments (which were right on).

The "trick" to getting modes is to remember what your "tonic perspective" is.

For example, the G Mixolydian mode is simply a G scale in the key of C (no sharps or flats). This effectively gives you the flat 7 in what otherwise would be a G major scale.

However, if you play G Mixolydian like you ARE in the key of C (e.g., running the scale from C to C), it will sound weak - you'll constantly be landing on C, E and G notes (like you were improvising over a C change). However, the C and E notes are relatively weak notes (aka "color notes" or passing tones) over a G Major change.

I dunno if I'm communicating this at all, but the trick is to remember what chord you're playing over, but let your prevailing mode influence your note selection over that chord (e.g., G Mixolydian should influence someone to play F natural instead of F sharp over a G major chord, giving a Dominant 7 or bluesy feel to the lead lines).

BTW, the book is sold.