Vocal phrasing and stylizing

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 4 Jun 2000 6:20 pm

I'm gonna try editorializing a little bit about style. If I'm off the deep end, well... (glub, glub, burble)

One of the things which can make or break a country tune for me (aside from the PSG content) is the way vocalists approach fitting the words to the bars. I call this "phrasing", for lack of a better term. It's been determined by studies that the feel of phrasing is much better if the lines being sung start a bit in anticipation the bar(s) to which they belong instead of always being right with the downbeat. There are some songs I hear on country radio which seem to totally miss this, and as a result the singing sounds really blocky. Also, some vocalists, when working with a line a bit too long to fit into the bars they have for it, "shoe-horn" the words by cramming a bunch together at the end of the line instead of allowing a couple more bars and gracefully overlaying the rest of the words. Sounds kinda tacky.

This isn't the case for the majority of songs out there, and I'm also not trying to be picky. Really, I hope this comes across as a constructive observation. Artists who I think are particularly good at their phrase work are Lee Ann Womack, Trisha Yearwood, Leann Rimes, and even Garth (don't shoot me!) Brooks, and others.

I may be getting too esoteric about all this, but what I think is poor phrasing can make me change the station back to newsradio.

I'm probably alone in this.

I'll solemnly watch as my meager posting, unreplied-to, sinks slowly ever lower on the Country Music summary page until finally it vanishes into the big bit bucket at the bottom of b0b's backup tapes.....

------------------
Bill * MSA Classic U12 * email * homepage
[This message was edited by Bill Llewellyn on 04 June 2000 at 07:32 PM.]

erik · Post by **erik** » 4 Jun 2000 8:14 pm

I don't know why you brought up this topic but i would submit that Willie Nelson would be a prime example of lyrical phrasing beyond time bounderies. Most experienced pros develop this over time.

If you would like an outstanding pedal steel example, check out Half A Chance as played by John Hughey on his latest CD.

BDBassett · Post by **BDBassett** » 4 Jun 2000 9:24 pm

As a vocalist, I can second your comments. It's OK to play with time like Willie Nelson does because the songs he sings, wheather written by Cole Porter, Wayne Carson or himself are so beautifully crafted. The words and melody flow and even lend themselves to interpritation.
In general, a poorly written song won't make it as for as air play on a commercial radio station. You, I or any of us may not like a certain song or artist, but I have to admit, most all the songs I hear on the air are well written. Where I find the biggest problem is with the song writer wanna-be. I can't count the demo sessions I've done with aspiring singer/songwriters who, for lack of a better word, suck. Run on sentences, filler words such as 'just', poor structure, nonsensical chord progressions add up to a badly written song. No GREAT singer could make it work let alone the poor schlub trying to sing it him or her self. It's especially sad when they really think they have a hit. I don't have the heart to tell them otherwise, I just play my little parts and wish them well.

Jim Cohen · Post by **Jim Cohen** » 5 Jun 2000 5:13 am

BD:
I had a songwriter like that around here a few years ago. She wanted me to play on her tunes, but only if I "really, really liked her music". She didn't want anyone playing on them who didn't "really, really" like them. (I think it was a karma thang) Anyway, I musta not been enthusiastic enough for her taste, since I didn't get the callback! That's okay. I took my kid to the zoo instead.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 5 Jun 2000 5:57 am

I with you on this one, Bill. It goes without saying for any HagFan. Even (or especially) on a narrative part –spoken, not sung-- Merle’s phrasing is wonderful.

I think I have to include singers like Vince Gill, Keith Whitley, George Strait, Randy Travis and Gene Watson in the same league. All of my favorite artists have this vocal quality. I’ve never been a big Willie Nelson fan, but phrasing would appear to be his strength as a vocalist; a stylist, not a note singer. And perhaps the most unique stylist is Jones.

Steel aside and distorted (rock sounding) guitars, that’s my biggest complaint on what’s taking over the country airwaves. The over-harmonized, chorus line vocals. By “over harmonized” I mean two things: The background is nearly at lead level in the mix, and every single word, it often seems, is harmonized. The latter removes the feel of vocal support where it’s needed for emphasis and variety.

------------------
HagFan

Bill Llewellyn · Post by **Bill Llewellyn** » 5 Jun 2000 6:59 am

Thanks for adding those other artists, Ron. Good picks.

I know in some cases producers actually bring in vocal coaches for recording sessions. I think I saw that mentioned in the credits on Leann Rimes' "Blue" CD.

------------------
Bill * MSA Classic U12 * email * homepage

Jon Light · Post by **Jon Light** » 5 Jun 2000 12:21 pm

I am not a singer (just ask anyone) and I tend to take phrasing for granted. I often can say that I don't really know what is meant by phrasing. But sometimes just as an exercise I will sing aloud a song that I know really well that I strongly identify with a particular singer--Hag is a good one, Patsy Cline another--but the exercise is to sing the song with NO extra phrasing. Sing it like it is written. It's hard! That's when you become aware of how much phrasing is going on. It is also really hard to free yourself from someone else's phrasing and try to forge your own take on a song.

Try this with "Crazy", no phrasing.

Bobby Lee · Post by **Bobby Lee** » 5 Jun 2000 2:02 pm

In general, a poorly written song won't make it as for as air play on a commercial radio station.

I guess the radio stations around here are the exception, then.

Herb Steiner · Post by **Herb Steiner** » 5 Jun 2000 3:13 pm

Ray Price, especially the mid-period Ray Price, was one of the most distinctive stylists ever to cross a bar line with his phrasing.

Check out the way he sang "Don't you ever get tired of hurting me:"

<pre>
"You make my eyes run over all the time.
You're happy when I'm out... (out where, Ray? to lunch, the store? where?)............of my mind.

You don't love me, but you won't
.............(won't "what," Ray?)....let me be.
Dont you ever get tired of hurting me?"</pre>

There are many other examples of this great singer's rhythmic gamesmanship.

------------------
Herb's Steel Guitar Homesite

[This message was edited by Herb Steiner on 05 June 2000 at 04:15 PM.]

Andy Greatrix · Post by **Andy Greatrix** » 5 Jun 2000 5:38 pm

Two great stylists come to mind,and they are Lefty Frizzel and Wynn Stewart. They both had incredible feel and could interpret a lyric with rythmn,melody, and dynamics.
The same goes for George Jones and Johnny Paycheck.
They make it sound so easy and logical.
I don't hear that kind of intensity from todays'singers. Of course a lot of them are handcuffed by management and disco-type production.
All the best,-Andy

Dayna Wills · Post by **Dayna Wills** » 5 Jun 2000 7:54 pm

Before I got into Western Swing, I sang rock, pop, particularly ballads, where a person could play with the phrasing. However, I have come to appreciate singers who start on the beat and end on the beat when singing western swing because it is dance music. The song works better, (for me) if it's phrased with the beat of the music. Hesitating, to me, seems to leave a dancer with one foot in the air.
Some singers drive me crazy when they come in a beat late. I used to do that too when I wasn't sure what chords I was gonna get to the bridge of some song. I would hang back a bit in case I had to make up a new melody on the spot. Since then, I have graduated to players who KNOW the bridge to the songs, ha!
so, for me, the phrasing depends on the type of song I am doing, and whether or not I have a seated audience or a dance crowd.
Do other singers fell this way? On a side note, when putting my CDs together, I put the songs in order of tempo by how many minutes I have to a cassette. Anyone else do this?

------------------

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 5 Jun 2000 8:53 pm

Jon Wayne did some really tasy backphrasing on "You And The Kitten" from the Texas Funeral album.

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 6 Jun 2000 5:31 am

Andy, thanks for reminding me. It's easy to give Merle all the credit for his style, which is clealy influenced by Lefty and Wynn.

I'm really surprised Wynn/Mooney/Hag fan Ray Cothren didn't jump me on that

.

------------------
HagFan

Kenny Dail · Post by **Kenny Dail** » 6 Jun 2000 4:01 pm

Lets not forget the KING of phrasing, the great Faron Young.

Listen to some of his stuff.

------------------
kd...and the beat goes on...

[This message was edited by Kenny Dail on 06 June 2000 at 05:03 PM.]

Tommy Minniear · Post by **Tommy Minniear** » 6 Jun 2000 8:09 pm

I have to agree with Ron and Kenny. Lefty Frizzell's phrasing can still be heard in top 40 country; and I wish it was the same with Faron's! Wynn Stewart's phrasing was as soulful as it it gets! Good call, Ron and Kenny!!

oops! Sorry Andy! Missed your post the first time I glanced over this thread. I agree with your mention of George Jones and Johnny Paycheck, also.
------------------
Tommy Minniear
JCH S/D10 3&4[This message was edited by Tommy M on 06 June 2000 at 10:27 PM.]

erik · Post by **erik** » 7 Jun 2000 2:41 am

Request for BDBassett:

Could you punctuate this chorus by The Rolling Stones and then tell me if it is an example of what you object to?

Chorus:

goodbye ruby tuesday who could hang a name on you when you change with every new day still i'm gonna miss you

BDBassett · Post by **BDBassett** » 7 Jun 2000 10:17 pm

What? You want me to edit a 35 year old classic rock hit to proove a point? I'm not sure I understand but what the heck.

Goodbye Ruby Tuesday. Who could hang a name on you when you change? With every new day [I'm] still gonna miss you.

Eric, songwriting is an art, it's a craft, it's a skill and it's not as easy as it seems to be. The well known country writers such as Harlan Howard, Felice and Boudloux Bryant, Wayne Carson (or Thompson) not to mention all the fantastic singer/songwriters over the years such as Merle, Marty Robbins, Dolly Parton and even Garth Brooks work their collective butts off getting it down.

One song or another may not appeal to your personal taste in the same way it does mine, but one must appreciate the skill with which it was created. A well written song draws out some sort of feeling in the listener wheather it's a 'Play That Funky Music' feeling or a 'I'm So Lonesome I could Cry' feeling, the song has a job to do. The good ones do their job very well. The singer has to have the song on which to build the interpritation that becomes memorable. A poorly written song, one which does not do it's job, is nothing more than word and notes, assembled slopily.
Where's the fun in that?

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 8 Jun 2000 4:33 am

Or …

Goodbye Ruby Tuesday. Who could hang a name on you, when you change with every new day? Still, I’m gonna miss you.

------------------
HagFan

Geff King · Post by **Geff King** » 8 Jun 2000 7:31 am

This is just my limited experience as a songwriter, but I find that the best songs I've ever put together take an hour or two to write and ten years to revise. If the song is good enough to play out once it's written and it communicates what you want it to than it's close enough for club work. Not that I'm woring hard at getting any farther than that...

And speaking of phrasing: Anybody here heard any of those Faron Young Pearl Beer Radio Show CD's (there's about 5 volumes, not sure of label.) I've got 3 of them on loan a friendsand it's fascinating to hear Faron's interpretation of so many diferent hits of the day (e.g. his version of 'He'll Have To Go'). It's also really neat to hear him do the same kind of phrase-strecthing that Willie Nelson is known for - like Jones and Paycheck, you kinda wonder who influenced who more.

(All this is just my 50 cents, now - is the coffee on yet?)

Ric Nelson · Post by **Ric Nelson** » 8 Jun 2000 12:15 pm

Jon:
If I remember correctly, when Patsy first heard "Crazy" on a Willie Nelson demo tape, the way he wrote it, she thought it stunk and refused. But Owen Bradley prevailed and Pats changed it with "Cline Phrasing" and we know the "rest of the story".

I have always been interestd in the songs written with wicked phrazing that with a little practice, sound quite well.

erik · Post by **erik** » 8 Jun 2000 2:25 pm

BDBassett:

I was a bit taken aback by your criticisms of certain kinds of phrasing in songs. I heard Ruby Tuesday recently and it stuck in my head how a listener would think the word "when" is starting a new sentence. But i think Ron Page has it right in his post. I find this to be a clever (or convenient) trick. It's not easy to do. I write songs myself and have a hard enough time filling in the lyrics let alone incorporating some mental gymnastics.

I just got the impression from your post that, to you, all lyrics must fall in the right place and pass a grammar inspection. Maybe i read too much into it.

BDBassett · Post by **BDBassett** » 8 Jun 2000 6:19 pm

Yeah, I know Ron got it righter than I did, but I was foolin' round with it.