It's all about taste and definition.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 22 Mar 2000 8:48 pm

We have been going back and forth over this whole thing about new country and old country for months now. But what is kinda funny is that, it really is a matter of taste and choice, and each persons definition of country. In my reference to Shania, Tim and Faith for instance, I never said I didn't like them, I just said I don't think they are country. I do like all kinds of music, jazz, classical, big band, western swing and even opra. But I still say just cause you put a steel on the record don't make it country. I like my country pure. So it all boils down to each persons taste and each persons definition of country. Can you imagine the debates we would have if this was "The Automobile Forum"? One post might read: "Chevy defectors"

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"Play from your heart"
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
Zumsteel D10/11
E9th, E13th, C6th

Robbie Bossert · Post by **Robbie Bossert** » 22 Mar 2000 9:46 pm

Hey Johnny,
I agree. Shania, Tim, and Faith are not Country. They have taken over the country market and now there doesn't seem to be room for the real country artists or the true legends of country music. So, where can folks turn to find the real deal? TEXAS! BAKERSFIELD! And, check out some of the indie record companies.

Now that the rock and rollers have all but run Nashville into the ground, lets take it to Texas as you mentioned in a recent thread.
ALL HAIL DALE WATSON,WAYNE HANCOCK,
THE DERAILERS,
JR. BROWN,HAGGARD,JONES,CASH,NELSON,AND ALL THINGS REAL COUNTRY

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 22 Mar 2000 9:49 pm

Or would it be Chevy defecators? I was gonna post that little joke over on Bar Chatter, but I already have enough enemies. Actually Johnny, it don't get no more country than Shania's 'Honey, I'm Home' and 'No One Needs to Know, Right Now' or 'Whose Bed Have Your Boots Been Under'. Slice it, dice it, grind it, whatever; those are the very DEFINITION of C&W. No debate; no ifs ands or buts; period; end of sentence, paragraph, post!

Robbie Bossert · Post by **Robbie Bossert** » 22 Mar 2000 11:36 pm

Marty,
Please tell me you're kidding! She's about as country as Marilyn Manson!
Robbie

Jack Stoner · Post by **Jack Stoner** » 23 Mar 2000 3:31 am

Johnny, you are right. Call it what it is or isn't, but don't call it country. I shouldn't have said that as the last time I did it I got flamed by one forumite but I've been flamed before and will probably be again. Other forms of music have categories withing the music but it seems anything they want to market as country they just call country, whether it is or isn't.

I like some of the pop/rock stuff, just as I like to listen to the local jazz radio station, etc. But if you want to listen to country you're out of luck. Occasionally they'll toss in a country song, but 99% of their play lists are the NCS. Hell, I even have a distorion patch on my Transtube Fex that I use occasionally when working in clubs.

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 23 Mar 2000 6:42 am

If this was an automobile forum ,one could also say there isn't enough "steel" on them too. I once again agree with the statement above,And I state their music is great,I personally don't buy music that grows old faster than the next release. Having a steel does not make one Country,If that were the case then Niel Diamond could share that classification. Niel has one song that the Steel adds chimes two and a few notes. As you stated,You like country to be country.My sentiments exactly.

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CJC

Marty Pollard · Post by **Marty Pollard** » 23 Mar 2000 6:58 am

Overall pix, her material is more mainstream pop than country, granted. But THOSE 3 songs are as country as country gets. I don't know how any of you could debate that.

Ric Nelson · Post by **Ric Nelson** » 23 Mar 2000 6:59 am

Johnny:
I agree. It is a matter of taste. I too have a wide taste for music and enjoy listening to most of it.

But what makes it hard on us is when the bandleader wants us to cover a "newer" song. We play old country and a little B-grass so I never feel the "new" stuff really works. Most of the time he forgets the "new" song after about 3 or 4 dates. Maybe that's because we butcher it.

[This message was edited by Ric Nelson on 23 March 2000 at 07:02 AM.]

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 23 Mar 2000 7:39 am

If this was an automobile forum, wouldn't we be talking about Chevy INJECTORS?

I like lots of music styles. If it sounds good to me, I like it.

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Carter D10 8p/10k
Richard Sinkler BS, www.sinkler.com

Pete Hunter · Post by **Pete Hunter** » 23 Mar 2000 8:16 am

Johnny,
Your posts and some others are very well said and hit the nail on the head. It's all in what you like and your interpretation of CW. I also like it pure and country with a lot of acoustic instruments.

A couple of weeks back I got flamed really bad for saying some of the old timers needed to retire from the opry and I quoted what some musicians in Branson, Mo said about the opry. A couple of our forumites took off on it like I was a communist and acted like I was into acid rock.

I go to more than 50 Bluegrass jams/festivals per year and Shania and Faith's music is just too modern for me too.

It's a shame that a lot of people view Shania and Faith and Tim and Garth as the cornerstone of country music. Someday the worm will turn...

When people ask me what kind of music I like I tell them "BOTH KINDS, COUNTRY AND WESTERN"

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Pete Hunter[This message was edited by Pete Hunter on 23 March 2000 at 08:19 AM.]

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 23 Mar 2000 12:21 pm

Hey Marty, you're forgetting your disclaimer. Better watch out

First let me say that I agree with almost everything said so far. But, I think we are trying to label the artist as being country, or not, when it should be their version of a song itself that we label. Shania, Faith and Tim have all recorded good country songs as well as pop songs. Does this make them country or not country?

Let's bring up two of the artists that have been mentioned as being real country artists, Alan Jackson and Willie Nelson.

First Alan: remember that he had hits with "Who's Cheatin' Who", "Summertime Blues", and "She's Got The Rhythm, and I Got The Blues". Were these "country" songs. I think not. These songs should eliminate him as being a "Country" artist by the definitions and examples we are seeing posted here.

Then there's Willie: In my opinion, one of the best country song writers ever born. Do I think he is a country entertainer? No. Just go to one of his concerts. Listen to his abortion, I mean version, of Whisky River. Pew!! Country?? Not by what I see posted here.

We could say the same about most of the so-called "real country" artists. Seems to me that after we start slicing away these artists that have recorded "non-country" songs, there ain't going to be a whole lot left.

Hey Marty, can I borrow your disclaimer?

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Carter D10 8p/10k
Richard Sinkler BS, www.sinkler.com

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 23 Mar 2000 1:32 pm

Opening up for Van Halen. Alan Jackson that great rock and Blues singer..I think not. Alan could make bethoven sound country.Have you ever heard Faith Hill try to sing apt#9.Next time Tnn repeats it tune in for a giggle.

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CJC

Ron Page · Post by **Ron Page** » 23 Mar 2000 1:56 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> First Alan: remember that he had hits with "Who's Cheatin' Who", "Summertime Blues", and "She's Got The Rhythm, and I Got The Blues". Were these "country" songs. I think not. These songs should eliminate him as being a "Country" artist by the definitions and examples we are seeing posted here.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Richard, you would certainly have to agree that Alan’s cuts of those tunes are country, no?

I have to at least partly agree with Marty on a few of the early Shania Twain numbers.

To suit my tastes, country's gotta have A) steel, fiddles and clean lead guitars, B)Clear vocals with harmony singing kept in the "background", and C) all has to be heard over the drums and bass -- somehow.

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HagFan

Dave Robbins · Post by **Dave Robbins** » 23 Mar 2000 2:35 pm

Ron, I like your thinking! I'm with you.

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 23 Mar 2000 2:46 pm

I will agree that Shania's second album had some great country music on it. In fact; I bought it, but as so many do in todays music once she had won over the country market she went pop. Reba is guilty of the same thing, so was Patsy Cline, Jim Reeves and Eddie Arnold. These were the first artist along with their producers, Owen Bradley and Chet Atkins that found that if they take off the steel and fiddle and replaced them with big string arrangments (the equivalent to the loud drums and rock guitars of todays pop music)they to could cross over and sell to the pop market. Some call it musical prostitution. When Dire Straits recorded with Paul Franklin (which by the way is a wonderful record)did they ship it to the country stations, when you went to the record store to buy it was it in the country section? No No No, they were absolutly happy to leave it in the Pop/rock section and on those radio stations. Did the fact it had all that wonderful steel on it make it country? No No, Not even a little bit.
A steel guitar does not make any music country, the song, the singer, the entire music arrangment, and the intent is what makes it country. It was not me that said 100 years ago that we have to catagorize music, but since someone did let's keep it all in it's place.
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"Play from your heart"
Johnny "Dumplin" Cox
Zumsteel D10/11
E9th, E13th, C6th

[This message was edited by Johnny Cox on 23 March 2000 at 02:57 PM.]

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 23 Mar 2000 3:10 pm

Ron, by the stuff I have been reading here on the forum, NO I would not consider those Alan Jackson songs COUNTRY. After he did Summertime Blues, I quit listening to anything he put out. I thought his version of that song was TRASH. I got the impression that he was succumbing to the new Nashville sound. I'm over that now. Still hate that song though.

Joe, I have not heard her try Apt#9. That doesn't counteract any other country tunes she may have done.

>To suit my tastes, country's gotta have A) steel, fiddles and clean lead guitars, B)Clear vocals with harmony singing kept in the "background", and C) all has to be heard over the drums and bass -- somehow.<

AGREED!!

My point is that we will chastize some artists for moving away from "real country" (Twain, Hill, McGraw) but at the same time worship others (Jackson, Nelson) as "real country" Gods.

I just don't get it.

Johnny, Maybe it's time to uncatergorize music. I agree that steel does not make a song country.

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Carter D10 8p/10k
Richard Sinkler BS, www.sinkler.com

[This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 23 March 2000 at 03:11 PM.][This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 23 March 2000 at 03:14 PM.][This message was edited by Richard Sinkler on 23 March 2000 at 03:15 PM.]

Lem Smith · Post by **Lem Smith** » 23 Mar 2000 9:32 pm

Richard,
My guess would be it's because Alan and Willie didn't keep on doing the new country/pop thing. Just because they did a couple or so "pop" sounding tunes obviously doesn't make them a rock/pop singer.

Another example would be Aaron Neville. I really liked his version of "The Grand Tour", but I would hardly call Aaron a country singer. Or Elton John singing "Stand by your man". Elton country??? Me thinks NOT!!!

In a nutshell, I guess I'm saying it's what you do the most of, that classifies what brand of singer/musician you're considered.

Lem

Steve Stallings · Post by **Steve Stallings** » 24 Mar 2000 5:18 am

Interesting thread, though it has been a recurring theme since the inception of the original forum. Country music is truly in the eye of the beholder. Some people think country died with Bob Wills while others think Tim Mcgraw personifies country. I have to say that you would have to look long and hard to find a musical genre that I do not appreciate. I don't consider rap music, but even that has people who love it. What is country? Country is you, me, and the people down the street. It is the sun coming up on the farm with the old john deere cranking up.
It is mom, dad, uncle Wayfords fiddle playing, and my cousin Chester trying to play upright bass. It is the sorrowful,
wavering sound of the bar sliding up to the 15th fret. It is the walking bass of every shuffle you've ever heard. It's the aging band down at the VFW that knows every Ray Price song ever recorded. It is a young fellow with a tele spitting out staccatto chicken pickin licks. Country music is what you decide it is. No one person or sound is country to everyone. I recently read that Jimmy Page is working on a country album. I think that is really cool. I thought it was kinda neat when Gram Parsons hung out with the Stones and briefly gave them a country influence. Eric Johnson had a pretty nice little "country" tune on his first CD. Steve Morse does some of the best country playing on the planet. Diversity folks....the melting pot. That is country to me. BTW, Elton John does at least two bonafide country songs. One is a tongue in cheek take off on red necks, while the other is a beautiful ballad called "Blues for Baby and Me".

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Steve Stallings
Bremond, Texas
Carter D10/Evans

Johnny Cox · Post by **Johnny Cox** » 24 Mar 2000 5:50 am

Some one mentioned the fact that some folks think country died with Bob Wills, That was is the days when even country had it's own catagories, you had hillbilly, bluegrass,western swing,Texas shuffles,cowboy and the Nashville sound. All of these different sounding music styles were and still are country but still have their own little niche. I even remember when I came to Nashville there was a radio station that was called Metropolitan Country, it was WSIX 97.9 (that is now just another top 40 station)it played the Jim Reeves, Patsy Cline, Eddie Arnold slick, big city country. My point here is, if you wanted bluegrass there was a station, if you wanted western swing you could find it and if you wanted Hank Williams and Ernest Tubb you could hear that too. Just like in rock and roll there were different stations for the different styles that all fell under the country umbrella. Now it just seems to be the top 40 and thats it.

Richard Sinkler · Post by **Richard Sinkler** » 24 Mar 2000 11:36 am

Lem, That's a pretty fair answer.

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Carter D10 8p/10k
Richard Sinkler BS, www.sinkler.com

Bill Cunningham · Post by **Bill Cunningham** » 25 Mar 2000 5:35 am

I would like to know when country chaged. It certainly wasn't with the latest change to the HNC crowd. It has to be back to the 60's at least.

Just turn on your Real Player and listen to 60's Net Country for an hour. Sure you'll get early Haggard, Jack Greene, Ray Price, early crossover to Country Conway and a little Ferlin, etc. etc. But you'll also hear a lot of surpy pop from Jim Reeves, Skeeter Davis, George Hamilton IV, Glen Campbell and on and on and on. ie No steel and fiddles. Johnny pointed out that that's the equivalent of drums and bass of today.

NOW turn on the top 40 country station and you get healthy dose of pop oriented crap (in the opinion of some) as well as "good country" with fiddle and steel.

I'm 41, raised in a musical family. My earlist musical memories are Hank Thompson's Cryin In The Deep Blue Sea album, ET Presents The Troubadours, and Speedin West. But I was teenager in the 70's and country was personified as Glen Campbell, Mac Davis, Dolly Parton, Barbara Mandrell and Kenny Rogers. NO,WAIT A MINUTE! We also had Moe Bandy, Joe Stamley, Johnny Paycheck, Johnny Rodrigues (sp?) and lots of Haggard for instance. This just proved to me that we focus on the part we do not like.

Country's about like its been for my lifetime except we do have new artists who push the old ones aside. Just like Haggard, Conway, and Jack Green, for instance, replaced Carl Smith, Webb Pierce and the like in the 60's. If you don't like what you hear, just acknowledge you don't like the artist instead of insisting that the entire genre has gone to hell.

That's off my chest. I'm going back to bed and promise to not bother you guys again.

One other note. Being catagorized as country made the hair stand on Bob Wills' neck.

Bill Cunningham

Theresa Galbraith · Post by **Theresa Galbraith** » 25 Mar 2000 7:02 pm

Bill,
Sure nice to hear from you! I agree with you and hope you'll continue to post the way it is! Thanks, Theresa

Ken Lang · Post by **Ken Lang** » 25 Mar 2000 8:48 pm

Just an observation. The debate over what is country and what is not has been going on for quite a while here on the forum, and maybe rightly so. Everyone has an opinion, and rightly so, but I see a trend, if that's the right word, and I'm sure it's no new revelation. I'm 58, and my country roots started at an early age listening to the static filled Grand Ole Opry on a cheap radio made in the 1950's. All those good old songs filling my young, eager years. The 60's were the glory days of country for me. Kitty, Webb, Hag, Ray and Buck among others. Got into some RnR as well, as young folks are prone to do.

I am sure lots of people recall our parents bemoning the taste of the new generation. They referred back to their younger days when music was really music, be it Jimmie Rogers, Al Jolsen or Glenn Miller. I believe what counts is the music that influenced us when we were young to the world.

I too, would describe "real county music" as having a steel, fiddle and good harmony with words that touched the heart. Oh, walking bass line and country shuffle, where have you gone?

We are our fathers. We, in spite of ourselves, have become like them, unwilling and unable to embrace the inevitable changes in music that must come, that have always come. So......this new country is not country music. Wrong. This new country is not our country music. Right. It is no longer about us, it is about a future we will have a diminishing role in creating. That is the order of things.

Let's not bitch over where things are headed. Let's cherish what we were, what we are and what we will yet become.
Ken

Joe Casey · Post by **Joe Casey** » 26 Mar 2000 4:12 pm

I wonder why Country can't catagorize like Rock Music has .There is Oldies Rock,Hard Rock,soft Rock,Southern Rock,Punk Rock,acid Rock. Now we know Oldies rock is not recorded anymore but it is still very popular and respected.Is that the direction country music is going? There is room for separate divisions in Country Music. And there is no reason why good old Country cannot continue to record and recieve airplay.I tuned in a Shania concert and I too agree she is a super star although not a country super star.I watched as her Steel Player went through the motions of playing but the sound mix was obviously not too his benefit.This might be an act with a steel player but he doesn't get a chance to contribute except for his presence. He would probably get as much credit if it was just his steel set up on stage.Not a very healthy way to gain notoriety except for the fact he does "play" for The #1 so-called Country act. Is this the direction for Steel Guitar in the future? Limited playing and contributing?Is this a case of "oh well the money's good"? It's probably the best seat for a concert.I'd rather cut lawns for a living!

[This message was edited by Joe Casey on 27 March 2000 at 03:42 AM.]

Jeremy Moyers · Post by **Jeremy Moyers** » 27 Mar 2000 8:40 am

Mr. Joe Casey,

The reason that country music can not (or atleast has not) "split" as you were saying is because in the total grand scheme of things country music listeners make up a very small portion of the total listening audience. This is a business and being that cannot remain a business without the green stuff. I know that bands and record lables both see how much more money they can make and how many more records they can sell by having "cross-over" hits and get a little greedy. I have total respect for guys like Alan Jackson who are sticking to their roots and really make a push for tradition. I think Johnny Cox is 100% right on everything that he has said and please know that I am not defending the industry. I never thaught about the dire straits thing being crossed over to country. That is really a great point. I play with the group lonestar, who has done the pop thing now, (of course by taking off the fiddle and steel and adding strings and layers of guitars). They have taken it so far that if you go out today and buy the new Lonestar record you won't even get the country version of amazed. They have replaced it with the retro-pop version. What is that all about? This is what I have seen from my experiences from inside the industry.

Jeremy[This message was edited by Jeremy Moyers on 27 March 2000 at 08:41 AM.][This message was edited by Jeremy Moyers on 27 March 2000 at 08:45 AM.]