What Is This Change

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 28 Jul 2002 3:54 pm

Here is something I've been doing for years ever since I first got fascinated by Curly Chalker. The shape is a Sus4th but what I can't figure out is why is resolves 3 frets higher and 2 frets lower. The key is A,C6th tuning with P-6; no song in particular; it fits in a lot of fast moving changes and works at I; IV and V. Any clues anybody.....

<pre>
A C A G

1 G-----------------------------------------
2 E-------4(6)-------7(6)------4(6)------2(6)
3 C-------4----------7---------4---------2--
4 A-----------------------------------------
5 G-------4----------7---------4---------2--
6 E-----------------------------------------
</pre>

Regards, Paul

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 29 Jul 2002 11:33 am

What exactly are you asking?

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 29 Jul 2002 1:12 pm

Earnest: In a dim triad; a minor 3rd over a minor 3rd: In an aug triad; a major 3rd over a major third. Dim triads repeat every three frets in an inversion; Aug triads repeat every four frets in an inversion. In each case the resolution is smooth and logical.

Now, here we have a 5th over a 5th with 5 half tones between each member but it doesn't invert every 5 frets. What I do see every 5th fret is the circles of 5ths and that seems normal so my question is: why is the resolution or best sounding harmony from this structure, at three frets higher and two frets lower ??

It just fidn't dit !!

Regards, Paul

Earnest Bovine · Post by **Earnest Bovine** » 29 Jul 2002 2:52 pm

Are you asking why it sounds good? I guess all these notes are part of a familiar C major/A minor pentatonic scale. Pentatonic means 5 notes. So the pentatonic scale contains A C D E G. These notes are used a lot by rock guitar players and we are really accustomed to hearing them. So they have a nice familiar sound.

Here are the notes in your 4 chords:
A C A G
E G E D
B D B A

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 29 Jul 2002 4:15 pm

There are more positions, as well
If you think of the highest note as the root, this 'home' position in your example would be the one at the 4th fret. If you think of a pentatonic scale as EB points out, you will see that the 4th 7th 9th 11th and 14th fret positions using this grip will play a harmonized pentatonic scale (AMi or CMaj).

I think of it more frequently on E9, where the 4th 5th and 7th strings have the same relationship. Universal players can use them interchangeably. They are the same.

(one reason why I never took the time to learn more than one tuning)

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 29 Jul 2002 4:56 pm

Earnest and Larry: Guys, I really appreciate you both helping me see what is missing here. I do think of the highest note as the root but what I was missing were the position at 9th and 11th frets with 4 as the root. 14 is an octave of 2 and I had that one already. I'm going to expand on the pattern this weekend and mix in the 9th and 11 frets. Then I need to do some head work on the pentatonics and get Earnest's contribution into my playing. I'll also be looking for the same thing on E9th as you pointed out, Larry.

Who says you can't teach an old dog new tricks ??? Now if that sweet thang down at the end of the bar.........

Regards, Paul

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 30 Jul 2002 5:26 am

...a 5th over a 5th....

is an error on my part. In my first run through of a work up on what EB said, it became obvious to me that this was wrong and I wanted to correct it.

My first examples were thirds, a minor and a major for the dim/aug triads. The next higher order would be a 4th and not a 5th. Explains the name of the chord as well.

I had asked b0b to allow me to put a rework of my old Fretts series; An Approach To Harmony into the articles section of the Forum. In some discussions I've had with Bob Hoffnar, I have found some serious gaps in my thinking and I'm on a second book he has recommended. That is how I came to this thread.

I don't see scales as a closed entity. I see them as a piece of Origami, the Japanese art of folding paper. When unfolded you may see the foundation of the work and where it came from. I unfold scales into the Sub-dominant, Dominant and Tonic chords. The dominant lies essentially within the scale but the sub-dom lies below it. A 5th below C is the F and the name below-dom. When folded up into a scale form that F becomes a Pefect 4th and now you know the rest of the story.

Regards, Paul

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 30 Jul 2002 2:24 pm

I don't see scales as a closed entity. I see them as a piece of Origami, the Japanese art of folding paper. When unfolded you may see the foundation of the work and where it came from. I unfold scales into the Sub-dominant, Dominant and Tonic chords. The dominant lies essentially within the scale but the sub-dom lies below it. A 5th below C is the F and the name below-dom. When folded up into a scale form that F becomes a Pefect 4th and now you know the rest of the story.

I'd be interested in hearing more about this way of looking at things. Are you talking about unfolding the major scale?

Am I right in thinking that you are saying that the term "sub-dominant" comes from going below the root note, (therefore the term "sub"), an interval of a fifth (therefore the term "dominant")? If so, that's interesting. I always thought the term "sub-dominant" might have came from the role that note, or the chord based on that note as root, plays in a progression; and/or the fact that it is a whole-step below the dominant. I don't remember if I've ever actually read a definition of those terms. Have you? I've just seen lists (which aren't always the same) that also include names for chords built on the other major scale notes, with names like "mediant" and "sub-mediant," in addition to "tonic", "dominant", and "sub-dominant."

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 30 Jul 2002 3:52 pm

Jeff: I'd be glad to break it down a little farther for you. I've always been afraid in these theory things that I might get flamed.
But at 70, my hide ought to be thick enough.

In the 60s, I was a dumb kid just getting into music. You know 10 ft high and bullet proof. I read some books in England and Germany and got the whole thing figured out by myself. Yeah, Right !!

Oh it was published and got mail from around the world but I have never been able to substantiate my views so they may well be wrong and at the least controversial. Mike Idhe had a copy and gave it to another man at Berklee for a check out but I never heard back so maybe that ought to tell me something. Or maybe not.....

I begin with a tone; call it C and give it a value in hertz. Somewhere near 261-264 for a beginning. It is only to make some calculations and following that, the shape of a major scale.

Using fractions; all even fractions 1/1, 1/2, 1/4, 1/8 and 1/16 you get all octaves of C. 1/1 and 1/2 set the limits of the scale from DO to Do'. Fractions based on 3 give us the 5th tone G; the Dominant tone because of those fractions.

There is a tone where C is the Dominant tone as I stated in the earlier post. It is called the sub (below) -dominant and is an F just to be brief.

You can ascertain the value of the dom when C is the root by multiplying 261 by 3 = 783 which is higher than DO' at 522 so divide by 2 to go back an octave: 783/2=391.5 which will sit within the octave as the 5th tone, G.

To find the sub-dom as a root when C is the dom, divide 261 by 3= 87 and too low for the octave so go up 2 octaves by multiplying by 4 x 87 = 348 and this will fit into the octave as well and be the 4th tone, F.

The dominant for the 5th tone of C is found in the same manner as was that G and it will be the 2nd tone of the scale as D.

Values of the Thirds for each of the Tonic, Dom and Sub-dom can be ascertained by using the fractional value of 5. in the same manner.

When all values are derived and placed in a numerical sequence you will see the typical major scale shape of Large Value, Large Value, Small Value, Large Value etc.

It lays out like this unfolded:
<pre>
F - - -A - - -C

C - - -E - - -G

G - - -B - - -D
</pre>
When placed in an alphabetical sequence you find that the numerical values also are in sequence for the major scale of C.

I think this will raise more questions so I'll leave it here for now.

Regards, Paul[This message was edited by Paul Graupp on 30 July 2002 at 05:07 PM.]

Jeff A. Smith · Post by **Jeff A. Smith** » 31 Jul 2002 1:05 pm

Thanks Paul, that's interesting. I always like to check out the different ways that people have for organizing music. They all have something new for me to learn from.

Jeff

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 31 Jul 2002 7:16 pm

I don't think the lick in question is about being pentatonic in nature. First of all, it includes a B note, which is not in the A minor pentatonic scale. Secondly, it will work on most frets. If you go slide between frets 7,8,9 or 10,11,12, it maintains the same musical dynamic while it crosses over all those different chromatic notes. My feeling is that the sound come from the fact that the chords are built by stacking fifths. For example, at fret 4, the notes are A,E,B. From A to E is a fifth, from E to B is a fifth. Same at all the other frets. That is the sound you are hearing I'm pretty sure. Guitarists do it alot, especially on strings 1,2, E,B, which are a fifth apart. It's a very common sound. I think fiddlers do it a lot to, since their strings are a fifth apart. I don't think there is any real theory here, just the sound of fifths. Anyway, that's how I see it. Regards .. Jeff

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 1 Aug 2002 5:32 am

Jeff: Thank you for your input. I enjoy these conversations a lot but more, I like to hear different approachs. That is so much like musical interpetations as well.

I at first saw these as 5ths but went back and looked at how thirds are defined. The major 3rd in CM (C-E-G) is C-E. Were it E-C then it would be the old neopolitan 6th. That is why there is so much harmony work in the C6th tuning, you have C-E and E-C.

In this sus4 chord I first called them 5ths (E-B) but when I took a second look it was as B-E and not the other way around. Although harmonically speaking they are twins, if it is spelling and naming we are looking for, then I think it should be a 4th and since the chord B-E-A is usually called a sus4th that seems to make some sense.

I see what you are saying about guitarists and violin players using 5ths, that's the way their open tuning lies and a bar chord might be the easiest to properly achieve. It does sound nice and is surely effective.

Again, Thank You

Regards, Paul

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Aug 2002 5:48 am

Jeff,
You're right. The B fidn't dit (as our friend Paul would say where have you gone, Archie Campbell). I guess the pentatonic part came from the root note (2nd string in Paul's example) but, as you point out, the B is just along for the ride. It's kind of a cool, amorphous sounding combination of tones that can be used in a lot of contexts. Fits well in certain rock and jazz tunes. I think I've heard Buddy use it on both necks -- definitely on C6.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 01 August 2002 at 06:50 AM.]

Dayton Osland · Post by **Dayton Osland** » 1 Aug 2002 7:41 am

Hi,

I found this topic interesting - it's always nice to find something that fits a lot of places!

Just to clarify though, these chords are all SUS chords - which are definitely amorphous sounding - they have the interval of 2 in common with dom 7th chords and with no third can be played over minor or major.

The A E B combination is an A Sus 2 chord and an E Sus 4 chord. Likewise the C G D is a C Sus 2 and G Sus 4 and G D A is a G Sus 2 or D Sus 4.

On E9th, the combination is available on string 3,4,5,6 at the open chord fret with the B pedal.

Here is tab of more locations where the Asus2/Esus4 chord is on the my E9 tuning.
<pre>

Tuning : B D E F# G# B E G# D# F# Time Signature: 4/4

| | | | | | | |
|--------------------------------|--------------------------------|
|------------------------7D------|--------------------------------|
|0B------3---------------7B------|8-------------------------------|
|0-------3C------5-------7-------|8E------------------------------|
|0-------3C------5---------------|8A------------------------------|
|0B------3---------------7B------|8-------------------------------|
|--------3-------5---------------|--------------------------------|
|0-----------------------7-------|8E------------------------------|
|------------------------7-------|--------------------------------|
|0-------------------------------|8A------------------------------|
</pre>

Created with TablEdit http://www.tabledit.com/

Note: D flats string 2 one tone and E flats 4 & 8 one tone.

Hope this is interesting.

------------------
Dayton Osland
Shobud S10[This message was edited by Dayton Osland on 01 August 2002 at 08:50 AM.][This message was edited by Dayton Osland on 01 August 2002 at 08:52 AM.]

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 1 Aug 2002 9:38 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>D flats string 2 one tone and E flats 4 & 8 one tone.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
one tone or a half tone?

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 1 Aug 2002 10:06 am

Dayton: Yes, it is interesting indeed, but I stumbled on:

they have the interval of 2 in common with dom 7th chords..

.

Sometimes these old gray cells leave me with some gaps so if you could elaborate on that a bit, I'd surely appreciate it !!

Regards, Paul

Dayton Osland · Post by **Dayton Osland** » 1 Aug 2002 10:34 pm

Hi,

Sorry about the confusion, Larry. It's just the standard 1/2 tone flat - I was in a hurry and was still thinking about intervals.

Paul, an interval is simply a single chromatic step. A minor third is three intervals. In a dominate 7th chord there are two intervals between the flat 7th and the tonic. This "interval of 2" is what requires resolution. Whenever we have these intervals of two (also in 9th, add 9th, 6th chords (space between 6 & 5 is 2 intervals)) they drive the song along toward eventual resolution.

The seventh also has a dimished 5th (or tritone) between the 3rd and b7, which further requires resolution.

The bottom line is that all of these chords add color to our playing. I have never thought to try the sequence that you laid out at the beginning and I think this will be a nice addition to my playing.

Maybe I've gotten too carried away the Jamie Aebersold ear training course!

Hope this helps.

------------------
Dayton Osland
Shobud S10

Dayton Osland · Post by **Dayton Osland** » 1 Aug 2002 10:35 pm

Hi,

Sorry about the confusion, Larry. It's just the standard 1/2 tone flat - I was in a hurry and was still thinking about intervals.

Paul, an interval is simply a single chromatic step. A minor third is three intervals. In a dominate 7th chord there are two intervals between the flat 7th and the tonic. This "interval of 2" is what requires resolution. Whenever we have these intervals of two (also in 9th, add 9th, 6th chords (space between 6 & 5 is 2 intervals)) they drive the song along toward eventual resolution.

The seventh also has a dimished 5th (or tritone) between the 3rd and b7, which further requires resolution.

The bottom line is that all of these chords add color to our playing. I have never thought to try the sequence that you laid out at the beginning and I think this will be a nice addition to my playing.

Maybe I've gotten too carried away the Jamie Aebersold ear training course!

Hope this helps.

------------------
Dayton Osland
Shobud S10

Larry Bell · Post by **Larry Bell** » 2 Aug 2002 5:07 am

Dayton,
I think we have a terminolgoy snafu here.
I was taught that an interval is a distance between any two notes. What you refer to as a 'chromatic interval' is more commonly called a 'half step' or a 'minor second'. A minor third is an interval consisting of three half steps. At least that's how most musicians I talk to refer to them. By the same token, an octave is also an interval.

This link explains it better than I can.

Hope this helps explain the disconnect.

------------------
Larry Bell - email: larry@larrybell.org - gigs - Home Page
2000 Fessenden S-12 8x8, 1969 Emmons S-12 6x6, 1971 Dobro[This message was edited by Larry Bell on 02 August 2002 at 06:16 AM.]

Jeff Lampert · Post by **Jeff Lampert** » 5 Aug 2002 8:06 am

Hey guys,

I was scouring the Internet and came upon this subject. I think this explains what the musical dynamic of the topic is. It looks like it does have some theoretical backbone after all!

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Quartal Voicings
A style of voicing made popular by McCoy Tyner is based on the interval of the fourth. This type of voicing is used most often in modal music. To construct a quartal voicing, simply take any note in the scale associated with the chord, and add the note a fourth above, and a fourth above that. Use perfect fourths or augmented fourths depending on which note is in the scale. For instance, quartal voicings for Cm7 are "C F Bb", "D G C", "Eb A D" (note the augmented fourth), "F Bb Eb", "G C F", "A D G", and "Bb Eb A". This type of voicing seems to work especially well for minor chords (dorian mode), or dominant chords where a suspended or pentatonic sound is being used.
These voicings are even more ambiguous, in that a given three note quartal voicing can sound like a voicing for any number of different chords. There is nothing wrong with this. However, if you wish to reinforce the particular chord/scale you are playing, one way to do this is to move the voicing around the scale in parallel motion. If there are eight beats of a given chord, you may play one of these voicings for the first few beats, then move it up a step for a few more beats. The technique of alternating the voicing with the root in the bass, or the root and fifth, works well here, too. On a long Cm7 chord, for instance, you might play "C G" on the first beat, then play some quartal voicings in parallel motion for the duration of the chord.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Paul Graupp · Post by **Paul Graupp** » 5 Aug 2002 2:08 pm

Jeff: Where did you find that ?? I'm sure there must be a lot of other information in a site so well spoken. Are your sure John Steele doesn't write for them ??

I must say, I never though some little lick I was using would be so rich in theory and good conversations. I've enjoyed this and more would be icing on the cake.

Too bad I'm not playing right now. Didn't even have a chance to go back and try some further explorations on the EB line of thinking. Oh well; maybe next time....

Regards, Paul